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  1. #11
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    That makes sense. However, just to play the devil's advocate, here's another question- do you feel the need to explain your ethical/moral beliefs in a logical way? I used to have the same response on the topic of feminism when I was 14 or so because I just couldn't think of how the issue wasn't black and white. Later as I matured and learned about how the world works I saw how almost every situation and issue is a shade of gray and dispensed with a lot of the emotion, and welcomed civil debate on any topic. I always feel the need to explain ethical and moral judgments with logic, which is one reason I think I use Ti rather than Fi. I think I always have; I just haven't always been able to. If you feel your ethics are enough by themselves, you are probably Fi. If you are always trying to incorporate your beliefs and judgments into some logical framework of how the world works, you are probably Ti; and if you want to but haven't figured out how yet, you might be Ti.
    It's not like I want to be annoying or anything, but hehe, just purely based on this one post of yours. It could very well be Ti as a shadow function.

    do you feel the need to explain your ethical/moral beliefs in a logical way?
    No, need is the key word though, I don't feel any need to explain my morals/ethical beliefs.
    But I do very much enjoy delving deep in every subject and bouncing around opinions and arguements as a means to reach a greater understanding of the subject.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #12
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chocobo Breeder View Post
    I'm open to INFP, but I didn't think I fit the typical description. Only after a lot of soul searching did I realize the inconsistencies I listed above which seem very much like Fi if they aren't actually. My SO is an ISFP, and being Fi dominant and Te inferior wouldn't that make us similar? Instead he sees me as too objective and not caring enough about emotions and he's been coaching me for about a year on developing my feelings and learning why I feel certain ways sometimes and that it's okay. I also thought I related to the negative effects of the inferior functions. It's clear that Te comes out when he's upset, normally he's very carefree and not interested in analysis or voicing his thought processes. And I burst emotionally when I'm upset and all reasoning is thrown out the door, which is the side most people I know don't get to see, though if I'm thrown over the edge with stress it can happen without much warning. And as for my age I'm a Chem student recently out of high school, I don't want to list my exact age in case someone says "Hey, I know you!" *shudders* I'd rather people I know not understand the psychology behind me lol. And I did make the mistake of assuming I was high on Ti, or possibly Te, due to me being someone who others go to for tutoring and me always finding school, papers, and exams easy (other than the deadlines), but I suppose any type could be a good learner. I didn't think I used Te because my brother is an INTJ and I can't relate to his thinking at all, but it could be his other functions causing the difference too. And explaining my values, the virtues I spoke of are literal virtues, as in The Seven Virtues in Catholicism. If my lust is interfering with my daily life, then I practice chastity, if it's my laziness, then I practice diligence, and so forth. I don't know where I'd be without it and I haven't been focusing on them lately because I've been too busy to pay attention, but I'll be returning soon. The reason I adopt practices from Catholicism is a long story, the first part being that I was brought up with it, the second part being my experiences, and the third part was exploring and finding what worked for me. And animals are really the only topic that can invoke such an emotional response, most people will see a completely different person if animals are brought up lol. And the reason I didn't bother to explain was because I've been going through the same routine talk almost every freakin' week recently, but at least it's starting to desensitize me. My reasoning involves how we are animals, and that humans only pride themselves on intelligence and morals and most people don't have much of either of those so why do they think they're so great, and also if you have the ability to do things, such as bully a sister or kill other people, does that mean you should do it? Why is it wrong to kill other people, but not animals? I think it's because we see them as different the same way racists see other cultures as too different to relate to. I think it's all a bunch of BS and I don't like it one bit. But you'll never find me so decisive on any other topic but that one. That's probably the most intense Fi trait I've experienced. As for whether the value came first or the reasoning, I can't say, I've been arguing for animals since I can remember, it's like asking which came first the chicken or the egg. For the INTP's out there, that's a rhetorical question in this context, please don't try to solve it lol. So I want to finally clear up why I show Fi sometimes, am I an unhealthy INFP who ignores their Fi and uses Te? Am I an INTP who uses Fi sometimes? Am I neither? Am I confusing Fi and Fe? Am I just plain confused? The world may never know... except for that last question. That one is a yes.

    But seriously, if you look back at my posts and see an Fi dominant let me know, I think I may be oblivious to myself.
    If anything, you explanation on the animals subject is more inferior Te than it is Fi. The emotional response you might be having might come from your much stronger Fi feeling that you can't really put to words, but you want to put it to words so resort to using your Te to get your point across. Quite frankly you are amazed how anyone could not feel the same as you do.

    As an INTP, I would much rather take a neutral stance. First of saying that it's wrong to assign an empyrical value to either, so the comparison is one that should be open-minded, as next the aspects you want to consider for comparison can be considered stronger or weaker in each of the subjects.


    Here's some food for thought. I would love to know how you felt/thought/etc, after this post and tell me what you feel about it afterwards:

    One obvious counterarguement is that an animal acts instinctively, it does not have much a choice in its actions, and therefor is free of the burden of responsibility for its actions. Humans know better, they can choose to take responsibility and they can choose not to. Either way, generally speaking a human's worth could be seen as more in that context as humans have the choice and the power to be more than what any animal could ever be, it's just that a human can also choose to be worthless by not living up to its worth.

    And that's just taking one aspect. The fact remains you are making a generalisation that is pretty much impossible to defend. I could poke holes in it all over.

    Now, don't get me wrong, I love animals and more often than not am dissappointed in many humans. And although I would not want to argue on measures of worth for reasons I gave above. I would still like to point out that humans have the capacity and the potential to be so much more than any animal could ever hope to be. So if you want to define both the worth of humans and the worth of animals, you need to be very clear on the aspects of both you feel are important, and also the aspects of both you don't count in your reasoning.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #13
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    It's not like I want to be annoying or anything, but hehe, just purely based on this one post of yours. It could very well be Ti as a shadow function.

    do you feel the need to explain your ethical/moral beliefs in a logical way?
    No, need is the key word though, I don't feel any need to explain my morals/ethical beliefs.
    But I do very much enjoy delving deep in every subject and bouncing around opinions and arguements as a means to reach a greater understanding of the subject.
    I could see how you might say that; but I have always been good at using the function as I understand it. It's just that when people are young they don't really understand the world and tend to think in black and white.

  4. #14
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    I still think females tend to be more closely connected to the things they care about, and thus more likely to show protective emotions, getting them labeled Fi. By the traditional MBTI system you are right, Fluffywolf; I just think definitions need to be modified and expanded to be more inclusive and flexible. I can definitely see a good case for either T or F.

    Chocobo Breeder, did you say you relate to inferior Fe, or were you saying you relate to inferior Te as well as your SO?

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    One obvious counterarguement is that an animal acts instinctively, it does not have much a choice in its actions, and therefor is free of the burden of responsibility for its actions. Humans know better, they can choose to take responsibility and they can choose not to. Either way, generally speaking a human's worth could be seen as more in that context as humans have the choice and the power to be more than what any animal could ever be, it's just that a human can also choose to be worthless by not living up to its worth.
    I established that it may be Fi-Te that's why I posted it, but without remembering exactly where it came from it still could be something else. I was raised with dogs and saw how intelligent they were, a human I can see performing the same action over and over again, dogs however are problem solvers, but sensitive and loyal ones at that which I think causes their obedience to things they don't even want to be doing, and the repression of their instincts when we teach them basic self-control like staying out of the garbage, not attacking other animals, and not sniffing people or doggy poops (I don't care about this personally, but I know people who do, the last part I mean lol). I know that's not a human's potential, but neither is it a dogs. If you look at it from an anthropological persepctive that's so popular nowadays you could say that humans should be out doing the hunting-gathering or physical work to sustain their community. Not many people had the opportunity to make discoveries and use critical thinking in those environments. Dogs who are just expected to lay around and chew on bones are probably going to do just that. But when time is invested in teaching them new things people are always amazed at how quickly they learn. And I think you could teach a dog just about anything, except for maybe to bring a coffee cup to you or something that usually involves thumbs. And if you ever lived with a dog you can see they have a choice too, especially dogs with conflicting personalities. While one will be chasing it's tail, another will be observing quietly in the corner, while another will be eyeing the food in the kitchen and slowing creeping towards it doing a good job at not being spotted, while the other is doing tricks in front of the family looking for attention, and to top it off they could all be related and have similiar genes revealing themselves in different ways. I think a lot of it has to do with malleability of the brain and just learning habits combined with instincts and building on them throughout life, but this is something I don't doubt humans do as well. And I use dogs as an example for everything because that's the animal I spend the most time around, and I suspect other animal's brain mechanisms are very similar, including our own. And I don't see any worth in the potential of humans, but I have a very small perspective on things living on earth. Even if humans were to develop their technology enough to travel across the universe or through time and space, what is the worth in it? Maybe it's worthy from a human's view with the "Look what I can do!" mentality, but in the grand scheme of things what difference does it make and what importance is there to it? To a human this could be very stimulating, to space itself it's no different. Possibly there is future or current importance in these things, but I don't think many people would be aware of the real reason. Naturally I always take a neutral stance, that's what I'm known for. This was the exception like I said in my earlier post, it's the only thing that causes such emotion in me. And how am I making a generalization that's impossible to defend? I think it genuinely doesn't make sense. And I'm not amazed that people don't think the same way, I've lived around people all of my life and realized that most don't have an ounce of critical thinking floating in their heads. And I "feel" that you may actually be close-minded if you think humans have more worth and that a counterargument would easily have holes. It sounds subjective to me for you to think that humans are automatically more worthy than any other thing or creature. But that could be your intincts talking.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I still think females tend to be more closely connected to the things they care about, and thus more likely to show protective emotions, getting them labeled Fi. By the traditional MBTI system you are right, Fluffywolf; I just think definitions need to be modified and expanded to be more inclusive and flexible. I can definitely see a good case for either T or F.

    Chocobo Breeder, did you say you relate to inferior Fe, or were you saying you relate to inferior Te as well as your SO?

    Yeah I said I relate to Fe when I'm upset, my SO is the opposite with Te. I have always thought Fi and Ti were the same thing. But I'm giving the forum the upperhand because I haven't found any sources on this theory that hasn't been run through someone's personal take on it. I believe we shouldn't have to make up for what the theory lacks; I think if it's correct it should stand on its own. So putting my limited view aside I'm trying to see if I actually do fit the cognitive functions and just don't realize it.

  7. #17
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chocobo Breeder View Post
    I established that it may be Fi-Te that's why I posted it, but without remembering exactly where it came from it still could be something else. I was raised with dogs and saw how intelligent they were, a human I can see performing the same action over and over again, dogs however are problem solvers, but sensitive and loyal ones at that which I think causes their obedience to things they don't even want to be doing, and the repression of their instincts when we teach them basic self-control like staying out of the garbage, not attacking other animals, and not sniffing people or doggy poops (I don't care about this personally, but I know people who do, the last part I mean lol). I know that's not a human's potential, but neither is it a dogs. If you look at it from an anthropological persepctive that's so popular nowadays you could say that humans should be out doing the hunting-gathering or physical work to sustain their community. Not many people had the opportunity to make discoveries and use critical thinking in those environments. Dogs who are just expected to lay around and chew on bones are probably going to do just that. But when time is invested in teaching them new things people are always amazed at how quickly they learn. And I think you could teach a dog just about anything, except for maybe to bring a coffee cup to you or something that usually involves thumbs. And if you ever lived with a dog you can see they have a choice too, especially dogs with conflicting personalities. While one will be chasing it's tail, another will be observing quietly in the corner, while another will be eyeing the food in the kitchen and slowing creeping towards it doing a good job at not being spotted, while the other is doing tricks in front of the family looking for attention, and to top it off they could all be related and have similiar genes revealing themselves in different ways. I think a lot of it has to do with malleability of the brain and just learning habits combined with instincts and building on them throughout life, but this is something I don't doubt humans do as well. And I use dogs as an example for everything because that's the animal I spend the most time around, and I suspect other animal's brain mechanisms are very similar, including our own. And I don't see any worth in the potential of humans, but I have a very small perspective on things living on earth. Even if humans were to develop their technology enough to travel across the universe or through time and space, what is the worth in it? Maybe it's worthy from a human's view with the "Look what I can do!" mentality, but in the grand scheme of things what difference does it make and what importance is there to it? To a human this could be very stimulating, to space itself it's no different. Possibly there is future or current importance in these things, but I don't think many people would be aware of the real reason. Naturally I always take a neutral stance, that's what I'm known for. This was the exception like I said in my earlier post, it's the only thing that causes such emotion in me. And how am I making a generalization that's impossible to defend? I think it genuinely doesn't make sense. And I'm not amazed that people don't think the same way, I've lived around people all of my life and realized that most don't have an ounce of critical thinking floating in their heads. And I "feel" that you may actually be close-minded if you think humans have more worth and that a counterargument would easily have holes. It sounds subjective to me for you to think that humans are automatically more worthy than any other thing or creature. But that could be your intincts talking.
    I have to say I agree with all this. But people seem to think I am INFP while I think I am INTP or INTX, so it could be that I am completely and utterly mistaken; but it could also be that the system and people's understanding of it is incomplete.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Joehobo's Avatar
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    @Fluffywolf

    Just throwing this out there to see what you think. Fi is pretty in your face when you step over what they believe in, and this will manifest in a Fi-Te rage. The subject will tend to feel that everything they are saying is completely logical and makes perfect sense to them, and that the other person is wrong for thinking how they do, they'll try to deconstruct and pick out whatever logical inconsistencies they see in the other persons argument to prove their own. This will be obviously seen as a real asshole thing to do, the critical behaviour tends to also deeply hurt people.

    This is how I experience inferior Te.

    So as a Ti dom, how do/did you experience your in early adulthood Ti-Fe rage when people criticized your ideas/beliefs/values or whatever was deeply held in you? How did you react to your sensitive crux?

    Final question being, do you really see more Inferior Te in choco's described reactions, and would you rule out the possibility her sensitivity and outbursts are Fe in nature?

    A generalisation is that an INFP have troubles with logical frameworks and consistancy due to inferior Te.
    For an INTP the generalisation would be they have more trouble with social graces, and being polite, due to inferior Fe. No?


    Just wanted to shake up your ideas a little bit and get you stimulated.

  9. #19
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joehobo View Post
    @Fluffywolf

    Just throwing this out there to see what you think. Fi is pretty in your face when you step over what they believe in, and this will manifest in a Fi-Te rage. The subject will tend to feel that everything they are saying is completely logical and makes perfect sense to them, and that the other person is wrong for thinking how they do, they'll try to deconstruct and pick out whatever logical inconsistencies they see in the other persons argument to prove their own. This will be obviously seen as a real asshole thing to do, the critical behaviour tends to also deeply hurt people.

    This is how I experience inferior Te.

    So as a Ti dom, how do/did you experience your in early adulthood Ti-Fe rage when people criticized your ideas/beliefs/values or whatever was deeply held in you? How did you react to your sensitive crux?

    Final question being, do you really see more Inferior Te in choco's described reactions, and would you rule out the possibility her sensitivity and outbursts are Fe in nature?

    A generalisation is that an INFP have troubles with logical frameworks and consistancy due to inferior Te.
    For an INTP the generalisation would be they have more trouble with social graces, and being polite, due to inferior Fe. No?


    Just wanted to shake up your ideas a little bit and get you stimulated.

    Inferior fe mainly manifested in me through dissassociation. Not caring what other people believe. Most problematic emotions arised when I knew the people around me must be wrong without having the right answer myself. This especially caused me to retreat into a shell. I woeld have responded to inferior Te by ignoring it. Now Im no longer experiencing these inferior Fe moments. I would be glad to entertain anyones thoughts and opinions and try to construct a Ti framework for them. Usually by showing them what aspects are important and which are considerably less important. This I have found is a great way to diffuse any situation.

    As for this topic, there isnt too much to go on. So I just shared my impression and allow it to be considered. Trusting the reader will be capable of taking the information properly. Wether it is the truth or not.

    I have never had an open Fe burst myself but that might be due to my enneagram. As for the descriptions, yes they do seem more fi-te to me. But like I said I dont claim to know the op. It is merely an impression and observation based on what little information was shared.

    posting on my phone is pretty annoying, blegh!
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  10. #20
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joehobo View Post
    @Fluffywolf

    Just throwing this out there to see what you think. Fi is pretty in your face when you step over what they believe in, and this will manifest in a Fi-Te rage. The subject will tend to feel that everything they are saying is completely logical and makes perfect sense to them, and that the other person is wrong for thinking how they do, they'll try to deconstruct and pick out whatever logical inconsistencies they see in the other persons argument to prove their own. This will be obviously seen as a real asshole thing to do, the critical behaviour tends to also deeply hurt people.

    This is how I experience inferior Te.

    So as a Ti dom, how do/did you experience your in early adulthood Ti-Fe rage when people criticized your ideas/beliefs/values or whatever was deeply held in you? How did you react to your sensitive crux?

    Final question being, do you really see more Inferior Te in choco's described reactions, and would you rule out the possibility her sensitivity and outbursts are Fe in nature?

    A generalisation is that an INFP have troubles with logical frameworks and consistancy due to inferior Te.
    For an INTP the generalisation would be they have more trouble with social graces, and being polite, due to inferior Fe. No?


    Just wanted to shake up your ideas a little bit and get you stimulated.

    Inferior fe mainly manifested in me through dissassociation. Not caring what other people believe. Most problematic emotions arised when I knew the people around me must be wrong without having the right answer myself. This especially caused me to retreat into a shell. I woeld have responded to inferior Te by ignoring it. Now Im no longer experiencing these inferior Fe moments. I would be glad to entertain anyones thoughts and opinions and try to construct a Ti framework for them. Usually by showing them what aspects are important and which are considerably less important. This I have found is a great way to diffuse any situation.

    As for this topic, there isnt too much to go on. So I just shared my impression and allow it to be considered. Trusting the reader will be capable of taking the information properly. Wether it is the truth or not.

    I have never had an open Fe burst myself but that might be due to my enneagram. As for the descriptions, yes they do seem more fi-te to me. But like I said I dont claim to know the op. It is merely an impression and observation based on what little information was shared.

    posting on my phone is pretty annoying, blegh!
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

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