Thoughts on my type version 2.0

[MacGuffin]

Yes. I am thinking more along the lines of collective values versus individual. My values tend to be in regard to what is the best for the group as a whole, such as the human race or the Earth, or women, or harmony between men and women, etc. I think of the interconnected web of life rather than what I personally like or emotionally react to. I believe people need to respect the interconnected web of life no matter what we think or feel about it. So in this way it is collective rather than individual. I used to take my cues from Democrats. But now it's more indigenous people.

This is Fi. You have a value (greatest good for many) and try to enforce it, rather than taking it from the group (which may not be good at all - see things like war and slavery) which is Fe.

 

[greenfairy]

This is Fi. You have a value (greatest good for many) and try to enforce it, rather than taking it from the group (which may not be good at all - see things like war and slavery) which is Fe.

I can see your point, but I don't think it makes sense. Everyone has values and everyone should think for themselves, no matter if they use Fi or not. A ti user would think for him/herself, and then use Fe to determine collective values. My INFJ friend has values very similar to mine and thinks in similar ways. How then would you suggest an INTP goes about determining what they value, and what would those values look like? Or do you not know because (as your avatar suggests) you don't have any?

 

[MacGuffin]

I can see your point, but I don't think it makes sense. Everyone has values and everyone should think for themselves, no matter if they use Fi or not. A ti user would think for him/herself, and then use Fe to determine collective values. My INFJ friend has values very similar to mine and thinks in similar ways. How then would you suggest an INTP goes about determining what they value, and what would those values look like? Or do you not know because (as your avatar suggests) you don't have any?

Now you're starting to get it. Pure Ti absent Fe or Fi is sociopathic - other people are simply complex objects to be figured out. Fe prefers to align with group values - in the United States they will be churchgoers, or patriots, or atheists, environmentalists, or volunteers, or whatever you might find in the social environment.

Ti has principles = this true because it is the truth.

Fi has values = this is true because it is correct.

Te and Fe are in comparison fairly groundless. Fe seeks to align with the social construct, Te seeks to organize the objective construct.

 

[greenfairy]

I think you are being a bit stereotypical. The ESFJ and ESTJ types are more likely to blindly follow society's values, but that is not a particular cognitive function, it is a particular order. Ti as a CF is sociopathic and impersonal, but no one is pure Ti. Everyone has both a T and an F function in their hierarchy for a reason, and that is so they can be balanced and think both about the human and nonhuman element in situations. Do you disagree that more functional people tend to be relatively balanced in their function use and able to see all sides of an issue?

My values start out as being true and are balanced with what is correct. Or they go the other way. But they are never "correct" in my book without being true. And you didn't answer how an INTP would determine his or her values and what they would look like. Shall I start a thread to ask INTP's about their value system? We can both study their function use in conjunction with values. It would be interesting.

 

[MacGuffin]

And you didn't answer how an INTP would determine his or her values and what they would look like. Shall I start a thread to ask INTP's about their value system? We can both study their function use in conjunction with values. It would be interesting.

That's hard to determine. Most have some Fi values, it seems to be part of the human condition (excepting the sociopaths). They still relentlessly run them through Ti to ensure they aren't mistaken.

However, INTPs are defined by principles rather than values.

 

[greenfairy]

I believe this completely applies to me. As I meticulously stated, my values are based on principles that I deem to be objectively and universally true. I notice patterns and trends in humanity and the world and the universe, and see those patterns reproduced in other areas. It's a macrocosm-microcosm thing. Underneath it all it is completely impersonal. And if there appears to be a contradiction, I will change the values rather than the principle. My values don't govern me, and everything runs through analysis. I just care a lot about the things I happen to care about. I don't really make it my life's mission to help humanity.

 

[MacGuffin]

Values aren't based on principles, they are apart from principles.

 

[greenfairy]

Not true. Everything is based on principles. Principles underly everything in the universe.

Principles are concepts which illustrate the way things work. Values are ideas (or things, in the case of value as a verb) which one is personally and emotionally attached to. These in no way conflict. A principle is a belief and a value is an idea plus a feeling. Everyone has both beliefs based on objective truths and things they are personally attached to. A value as an ethical principle is simply an objective truth which one applies to the social sphere for the purpose of enhancing well-being, and thus the goal of which one has a personal emotional attachment to. I believe in these objective truths that organize themselves into a framework. I also, being a human and a social animal, am personally attached to my fellow humans and living beings to an extent. So I care about their well-being. So I look at this objective framework of truths (Ti) to find universal principles which can be applied to the social sphere in order to evaluate the human consequence of actions (being involved in this is Fe). I feel more personally connected to some things than others (as does everyone), and so judge some things as more important to me to be involved with than others (Fi), as does everyone. So my Fi helps determine my values, as it does for everyone. But in governing my life and in relation to my ethics, I think it is fairly low on the totem pole. I am very connected to some things, but I don't let that cloud my rationality or contradict the objective principles I believe in.

So you see, it is rational as a functional human being to have personal attachments (values), and it is rational to believe in a framework of objective truths (principles). So they are completely compatible.

 

[greenfairy]

The only point of incompatibility is if someone uses subjective feelings to extrapolate universal truths which are in fact not objectively true. They are only true from that particular personal perspective. I see an Fi based value system to be vulnerable to this. So I judge myself to use Fe which is more collective and includes multiple perspectives, and is compatible with universal truths which transcend all personal perspectives. (Fe+Ti)

If you still don't understand what I'm trying to communicate, I don't know how much more clear I can be.

 

[greenfairy]

Copy from original type post:
The point of the OP was actually not that I was confused and wanting people to help me type myself because I was new. I'm actually not that new. I had decided what I thought my type was through the best fit method and was posting my answers to show that I am an atypical INTP. I was hoping that my reasoning would be helpful to others, and that other people would help come up with explanations of their own. It kind of started out like this, but then evolved into me trying to prove myself and people telling me to figure myself out. (Not that re-examining my use of Fi wasn't helpful, because it helped me develop my cognitive function and tritype theory. But it wasn't really done in the spirit I wanted.) Only a couple of people argued with my actual reasoning, but I didn't hear anyone respond, "Oh that is so true! I never noticed that distinction between the types before, and now I can use it to type other INXP's." Which was my original intent. So I have to ask, do people think I'm just totally wrong and my reasoning is BS, or are people just unaware that this was my purpose? Because I fully intend to use myself as an atypical INTP and post some sort of guide to typing INXP's because of it.

*This is one of the main reasons I care so much about typing myself, is that I have actual opinions about this stuff which I'd like to be taken seriously, and I don't want people to assume I don't know what I'm talking about because I can't even accurately type myself.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Actually, many INTP's may score high on Fi related questions without actually using Fi as a cognative function. A lot of Fi based questions are very hard to answer because it's a very unconscious-like cognative function and people are easily biased into answering in favor of the Fi, because it seems like the right answer. But the difference is that you would reach that conclusion using your Ti, thinking that that is how you should answer. Whilest it has nothing to do with Fi, feeling that it is truth.

Especially on my firsts tests (probably because I wanted to secretly depict myself as more awesome then I already was), I usually scored prety high on Fi, not until much later and delving into what Fi really was did I realize I don't use it at all.

 

[greenfairy]

Cool.

 

[Mal12345]

INFP.

 

[greenfairy]

INFP.

Ok. Did you read the thread? Or the post before last? Because I assure you I'm not.

 

[Mal12345]

Ok. Did you read the thread? Or the post before last? Because I assure you I'm not.

Yes. You should look into MBTI tritypes.

 

[greenfairy]

Yeah, I have. I think it makes a lot of sense, and I'll probably read more about it. INXP/INTX. So I'm wondering what makes you think INFP? And also since I know I'm not, do you have any thoughts on why I'm atypical (if you were to assume I am correct)?

 

[Mal12345]

Yeah, I have. I think it makes a lot of sense, and I'll probably read more about it. INXP/INTX. So I'm wondering what makes you think INFP? And also since I know I'm not, do you have any thoughts on why I'm atypical (if you were to assume I am correct)?

I base it simply on analyzing the answers you gave in the OP. For example: "I would instantaneously evaluate what I agreed and disagreed with and why, and formulate my response. I would assess what his/her attitude was in saying it and what my attitude was and whether emotion or other personal factors were making either of us biased. Then I would respond with an emphasis on looking at the big picture."

When I search statements like this for clues, I don't look at functions much. So if I say that your response shows introversion in the first sentence, and intuition in the last, I'm not calling it Ni. (But a certain J-ness is present in the orderly way in which you mentally process the situation.)

"This has happened many times, and I have to modify my internal framework (both objective and subjective). I notice how I feel about this clash, and how much my ego might be attached to my beliefs and and whether I need to detach more to know the big picture." Here is feeling, intuition, and introversion.

"I value things both objectively and subjectively. Externally I value freedom, harmony, truth, responsibility, happiness, independence, collective empowerment, thinking outside the box, being openminded, seeing interconnectedness, having a balanced ego, compassion within reason, and honesty (both with others and yourself), among other things. I value practicality and applicability, as well as imagination and idealism and pointless mental activity. For me personally I value health and fitness, competence, being extraordinary, beauty, pleasure, logic, humor, being stable and sane, knowing myself, independence, maturity, and constant commitment to being my best. The most important thing to me is to know and understand reality and the ultimate truth of the universe (both objective and subjective). My ethics have evolved over the years and now consist of ‘be responsible for the consequences of your actions.’ (I don’t like making moral judgments anymore because they seem too Christian/religious. I’m pagan/Taoist/Hindu/atheist. The truth is never black and white or dualistic.) That said, I will protect and defend people and things I feel connected to. I feel one with the Earth and the life on it. (I also believe it is objectively true that we need to protect the earth no matter how people feel about it because it makes sense.) I feel connected to the goddess and god energy and am a feminist. Being pagan I believe in looking at things from the perspective of all human history and not being biased in favor of “civilization” and technology. I value both science and mysticism. Everything is balance. My values have never really changed, just had different emphases."

I'm not looking for functions here, but introverted feeling certainly pops out strongly in those statements. It's not because you talk about values (that's what was asked anyway), it has to do with a quest for meaning (" to know and understand reality and the ultimate truth of the universe"). You say it is both objective and subjective meaning. But the things you discuss clearly aren't objective ("I feel one with the Earth and the life on it" and "I feel connected to the goddess and god energy").

"Intuition is a very important tool, especially for a witch. I always trust my intuition, and it is very reliable and accurate. I always balance my subjective feelings with objective reality though, because they can be biased or clouded by emotion."

This comes across as more INFJ. My intuition keeps telling me to change the call to INFJ, so maybe I'll just do that.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I'm not looking for functions here, but introverted feeling certainly pops out strongly in those statements. It's not because you talk about values (that's what was asked anyway), it has to do with a quest for meaning (" to know and understand reality and the ultimate truth of the universe"). You say it is both objective and subjective meaning. But the things you discuss clearly aren't objective ("I feel one with the Earth and the life on it" and "I feel connected to the goddess and god energy").

"Intuition is a very important tool, especially for a witch. I always trust my intuition, and it is very reliable and accurate. I always balance my subjective feelings with objective reality though, because they can be biased or clouded by emotion."

This comes across as more INFJ. My intuition keeps telling me to change the call to INFJ, so maybe I'll just do that.

If we were to type by functions, I would say INTJ Ni-Fi Loop. If we were to type by the tritype theory, I would say INTP/INFP/INTJ. If we were to type by type description, I would say INFJ. So I don't know lol.

 

[Mal12345]

If we were to type by functions, I would say INTJ Ni-Fi Loop. If we were to type by the tritype theory, I would say INTP/INFP/INTJ. If we were to type by type description, I would say INFJ. So I don't know lol.

I've seen so many INFJ/INTP combinations that I should have thought of it long before this. As far as functions go, I'm seeing more Ni now that I think about it. I just don't like to. But I have to ask what it is about the INTP description that seems so accurate? For example,

"The most important thing to me is to know and understand reality and the ultimate truth of the universe (both objective and subjective)" ("INTPs value knowledge above all else"). But that's only a small part of the description compared to all this:

"Externally I value freedom, harmony, truth, responsibility, happiness, independence, collective empowerment, thinking outside the box, being openminded, seeing interconnectedness, having a balanced ego, compassion within reason, and honesty (both with others and yourself), among other things. I value practicality and applicability, as well as imagination and idealism and pointless mental activity. For me personally I value health and fitness, competence, being extraordinary, beauty, pleasure, logic, humor, being stable and sane, knowing myself, independence, maturity, and constant commitment to being my best." "My ethics have evolved over the years" ("INFJs place great importance on havings things orderly and systematic in their outer world. They put a lot of energy into identifying the best system for getting things done, and constantly define and re-define the priorities in their lives." "They have high expectations of their children, and push them to be the best that they can be.") Some of that sounds Fi and some Ni.

So which type is more prominent?

 

[greenfairy]

I base it simply on analyzing the answers you gave in the OP. For example: "I would instantaneously evaluate what I agreed and disagreed with and why, and formulate my response. I would assess what his/her attitude was in saying it and what my attitude was and whether emotion or other personal factors were making either of us biased. Then I would respond with an emphasis on looking at the big picture."

When I search statements like this for clues, I don't look at functions much. So if I say that your response shows introversion in the first sentence, and intuition in the last, I'm not calling it Ni. (But a certain J-ness is present in the orderly way in which you mentally process the situation.)

"This has happened many times, and I have to modify my internal framework (both objective and subjective). I notice how I feel about this clash, and how much my ego might be attached to my beliefs and and whether I need to detach more to know the big picture." Here is feeling, intuition, and introversion.

"I value things both objectively and subjectively. Externally I value freedom, harmony, truth, responsibility, happiness, independence, collective empowerment, thinking outside the box, being openminded, seeing interconnectedness, having a balanced ego, compassion within reason, and honesty (both with others and yourself), among other things. I value practicality and applicability, as well as imagination and idealism and pointless mental activity. For me personally I value health and fitness, competence, being extraordinary, beauty, pleasure, logic, humor, being stable and sane, knowing myself, independence, maturity, and constant commitment to being my best. The most important thing to me is to know and understand reality and the ultimate truth of the universe (both objective and subjective). My ethics have evolved over the years and now consist of ‘be responsible for the consequences of your actions.’ (I don’t like making moral judgments anymore because they seem too Christian/religious. I’m pagan/Taoist/Hindu/atheist. The truth is never black and white or dualistic.) That said, I will protect and defend people and things I feel connected to. I feel one with the Earth and the life on it. (I also believe it is objectively true that we need to protect the earth no matter how people feel about it because it makes sense.) I feel connected to the goddess and god energy and am a feminist. Being pagan I believe in looking at things from the perspective of all human history and not being biased in favor of “civilization” and technology. I value both science and mysticism. Everything is balance. My values have never really changed, just had different emphases."

I'm not looking for functions here, but introverted feeling certainly pops out strongly in those statements. It's not because you talk about values (that's what was asked anyway), it has to do with a quest for meaning (" to know and understand reality and the ultimate truth of the universe"). You say it is both objective and subjective meaning. But the things you discuss clearly aren't objective ("I feel one with the Earth and the life on it" and "I feel connected to the goddess and god energy").

"Intuition is a very important tool, especially for a witch. I always trust my intuition, and it is very reliable and accurate. I always balance my subjective feelings with objective reality though, because they can be biased or clouded by emotion."

This comes across as more INFJ. My intuition keeps telling me to change the call to INFJ, so maybe I'll just do that.

Cool, thanks for the explanation. I can see the how the particular things you listed could go either way.