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  1. #91
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    One thing that keeps me from believing that I'm an ENFJ with certainty is that I have been described as awkward many times yet ENFJs are described as being charismatic or charming. I don't think I'm either of those. The letters seem to fit me but the descriptions just don't seem me. :/
    Believe me, EXFJs can be quite awkward. It may be because they are so overly concerned/fixated with social rules/norms (Fe) that it might paralyse them on what the right thing is to say or do. One of the most hated people I know is probably ESFJ because she has a crappy handle of how to deal with people and is delusional but is concerned with social rules/norms. Fe doms may know the social rules/norms quite well but that doesn't mean that they are efficient in using them.

  2. #92
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Believe me, EXFJs can be quite awkward. It may be because they are so overly concerned/fixated with social rules/norms (Fe) that it might paralyse them on what the right thing is to say or do. One of the most hated people I know is probably ESFJ because she has a crappy handle of how to deal with people and is delusional but is concerned with social rules/norms. Fe doms may know the social rules/norms quite well but that doesn't mean that they are efficient in using them.
    Ah, that's pretty interesting. The thing is I'm actually unaware of some social rules/norms and I'm oblivious to how I come off. But thanks for telling me that.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    PersonalityPages explains why the ENFJ type has this conflict:

    "ENFJ's tend to be more reserved about exposing themselves than other extraverted types. Although they may have strongly-felt beliefs, they're likely to refrain from expressing them if doing so would interfere with bringing out the best in others. Because their strongest interest lies in being a catalyst of change in other people, they're likely to interact with others on their own level, in a chameleon-like manner, rather than as individuals."

    Anyway, the ENFJ has always been a little different from your run-of-the-mill extravert:

    "ENFJ's are so externally focused that it's especially important for them to spend time alone. This can be difficult for some ENFJs, because they have the tendency to be hard on themselves and turn to dark thoughts when alone. Consequently, ENFJs might avoid being alone, and fill their lives with activities involving other people. ENFJs tend to define their life's direction and priorities according to other people's needs, and may not be aware of their own needs. It's natural to their personality type that they will tend to place other people's needs above their own, but they need to stay aware of their own needs so that they don't sacrifice themselves in their drive to help others."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #94
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Believe me, EXFJs can be quite awkward. It may be because they are so overly concerned/fixated with social rules/norms (Fe) that it might paralyse them on what the right thing is to say or do. One of the most hated people I know is probably ESFJ because she has a crappy handle of how to deal with people and is delusional but is concerned with social rules/norms. Fe doms may know the social rules/norms quite well but that doesn't mean that they are efficient in using them.
    This is a good insight into Fe. One which ive thought about myself from time to time.

    That ESFJ you know sounds exactly like me.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #95
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    @Mal+

    basically you take the functions test. My highest function is Fi. Ive gotten Fi Ni, Fi Ne, Fi Se, and Fi Si. But my Fi is insanely high, k.

    My lowest function is always Ti. My second lowest is Te.

    This pretty well establishes that I am an F dom, and then obviously and Fi dom.

    On my most recent tests my function order has been Fi, Se, Ni, Fe.

    Since my second highest judging function is Fe and my T functions are so low, my secondary type would be FJ, and most likely ExFJ (F dom) since my Ti is lowest.

    Considering the strength of my Se, ENFJ also seems most plausible.

    Interestingly some people on this site have suggested NFJ for me. But my Fe is too crappy for that, Im obviously Fi.

    However it makes sense ENFJ would be my secondary type.

    This would explain by REAL function order why some ISFPs are more like ISTPs or ISFJs, and some are more like NFs.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    @Mal+

    basically you take the functions test. My highest function is Fi. Ive gotten Fi Ni, Fi Ne, Fi Se, and Fi Si. But my Fi is insanely high, k.

    My lowest function is always Ti. My second lowest is Te.

    This pretty well establishes that I am an F dom, and then obviously and Fi dom.

    On my most recent tests my function order has been Fi, Se, Ni, Fe.

    Since my second highest judging function is Fe and my T functions are so low, my secondary type would be FJ, and most likely ExFJ (F dom) since my Ti is lowest.

    Considering the strength of my Se, ENFJ also seems most plausible.

    Interestingly some people on this site have suggested NFJ for me. But my Fe is too crappy for that, Im obviously Fi.

    However it makes sense ENFJ would be my secondary type.

    This would explain by REAL function order why some ISFPs are more like ISTPs or ISFJs, and some are more like NFs.
    Doesn't the function test result automatically provide you with these alternative choices?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #97
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    This is a good insight into Fe. One which ive thought about myself from time to time.

    That ESFJ you know sounds exactly like me.
    Well you could still as easily be ENFJ though. It's not limited to ESFJ. ENFJs just seem more idealist in their delusions.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Doesn't the function test result automatically provide you with these alternative choices?
    Not necessarily correctly. In Jungian theory the dom and inferior are of utmost importance, meaning I'm an F dom who rejects T, so it would make no sense for me to list my secondary type as ESFP or INFJ by this particular theory.

    In Keirsey or MBTI I'd say my "secondary type" is another FP type...Performer and Composer in Keirsey, and in MBTI I'd say more like ISFP and INFP; by interaction styles (Phleg-Sang, Sang-Phleg) I'd say my types are ISFP and then ENFP (which is what I think a lot of people see on this web site, because they see my interaction style and judge me on that). On the Keirsey site they see Performer and Composer.

    But by this theory I'd be F dom and F dom, since my T functions are so low and my Fe is in my top four where the Te "should" be.

  9. #99
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    Ah, that's pretty interesting. The thing is I'm actually unaware of some social rules/norms and I'm oblivious to how I come off. But thanks for telling me that.
    The important thing is are you constantly making judgments and comparisons using social norms/rules and thinking in terms of them? Whether you decide to follow them or disregard them. INFJs do this but it's secondary to their inner vision. They are used as a tool for their inner vision. ENFJs use Ni to aid their objective.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Doesn't the function test result automatically provide you with these alternative choices?
    Of course you can go by that, btw. Like for example I have no idea what they'd do on functions tests, but I am strongly of the belief that David Lynch and Lana Del Rey are both ISFPs that are sometimes mistyped as INFJs because they have such heavy Ni for ISFPs and can use Fe manipulatively or understand what other people use Fe for (not unusual in older Fi types, I don't think) without being Fe themselves.

    What's interesting is that even Keirsey types Lynch as an ISFP, and I believe Lynch to be an ISFP more by function order, because his Se seems to come BEFORE his Ni, but his Ni is very very clear in his art work, and it's all led by his own Fi. And in a particularly Fi/Ni state, Lynch doesn't give a fuck if you "get it" or you don't, either you get him or you don't, and I don't think he minds at all if you're on the outside. Doesn't seem very Fe to me.

    Lana del Rey is the same, she puts Se aesthetics before her Ni, but her conceptualism that underlies her current album seems to entirely elude some people, and she seems genuinely to not care to explain herself, and is content to live in her own construction of an Se/Ni world kind of like Lynch does (which makes it so interesting to me that someone negatively compared her to a character in a Lynch film in the comments on an article about her)...but I believe she's Fi enough that she really does not give a fuck, she knows what she's doing, and that's why her little video collages are so personal to her, I think she goes by her Fi/Se to make those collages, and what it evokes in her, while still being aware enough of what other people use Fe for (as an Fi dom) to appeal to it both sarcastically and conceptually.

    Edit: Or to put it another way, in original Jungian terms, I think they both have Sensual Feeling and Speculative Thinking...I don't see the Intuitive Feeling and Concrete/Practical Thinking. If you look at it like that...really? I mean really, they have Concrete/Practical Thinking? And what are their works personified, if not first carried by Sensual Feeling?

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