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  1. #11
    Member wistfulwillow's Avatar
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    So I'm a dork and forgot to subscribe to the thread...
    But thanks for all the responses!
    I took another test and got 4w5.
    I'm going with that.
    On another note isn't it weird how most 4w3 descriptions are kind of negative?
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  2. #12
    Senor Membrae Eugene Watson VIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wistfulwillow View Post
    On another note isn't it weird how most 4w3 descriptions are kind of negative?
    Indeed, but how ever will a 4w5 soak the limelight? Haters hating on us cause of our fame

  3. #13
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    So much over identification with the 5-wing. The 4w5 is a rare type, yet 99% of people are this type when they choose their wings. And the people that do decide on 3-wing are actually 6w7/7w6.

    The ego-ideal is a bitch.

  4. #14
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    Sigh...

    Here's links to different descriptions between the two wings:

    http://typewatchenneagram.blogspot.c...criptions.html
    http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/2007/09/type-4.html

    In short: 4w3 is more prone to outward drama and expression, with a keener desire on being appreciated for their uniqeness by others; 4w5 usually keep their emotions more hidden and care more about personal authentic identity.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Agreed with most of what everyone else has said

    Just to add [something I posted on Personality Cafe which I'm reposting here]

    I've noticed the 4w3's are more social, image-oriented and flexible but when it comes to core research, they do cut corners and go about things in a bit of a haphazard manner [self included].

    4w5's much more withdrawn and a little less reactive [especially if their head-fix is also 5] -- however, slightly more opinionated and assured in their opinions because they seem to be coming from a position of intellectual authority. As for the bad of 4w5's ... hmmm ... I haven't really noticed, because that's not what I look for when observing people.

    4w3's exhume this push and pull between self-hate and self-love and are a lot more expressive. They have a "I'm broken, but I can still achieve a lot" vibe about them. They want attention, but won't go to any lengths for it. As for the bad of 4w3's, I can only speak for myself.

    - I'm over-dramatic at times and tend to exaggerate a little bit. I may simply be coming to tears over something, but I would describe it in a way that I've been stabbed in the chest and bleeding profusely needing someone to bandage my wounds. I wonder if other 4w3's "exaggerate" in a similar fashion.

    - I do cut corners in research instead of spending enough time fully researching it.

    - I have taken on several different images that seem to branch off from my inner core, but I always remain true to what that core is and if I feel I'm drifting too far from it, I always "set things right" even if it means sustaining and accepting damage to the image that has been created.

  6. #16
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Honestly, I identify with both wings, it is just that my w5 wants to kick the crap out of my w3 like 90 percent of the time, so I try to bury that side of me non-stop. I do NOT like it. I feel a lot more balanced when employing the w5 approach.
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  7. #17
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    I have a friend who I'm pretty sure is 4w3. I'd say 4w3 is more prone to obvious/external drama and has more invested in image and achievement - possibly of a sort of counter-culture dramatic nature.

    This all really fits my friend... She's almost certainly a 4 but I don't see much of a 5 wing in her. (Probably ENFP or an outgoing INFP.)
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  8. #18
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wistfulwillow View Post
    So I'm a dork and forgot to subscribe to the thread...
    But thanks for all the responses!
    I took another test and got 4w5.
    I'm going with that.
    On another note isn't it weird how most 4w3 descriptions are kind of negative?
    Interesting... I see the 4w3 descriptions as far more positive than 4w5s. 4w5s are always made out to be on the verge of suicide...

    When I read 4w3 descriptions, I admit, I feel envy . It's like they get all the good 4 qualities... aka, qualities I don't have. I just can't relate to the 3 motivations & many of the defining traits that separate 4w3s & 4w5s. I always lean 5, so much so I debated even being a 5.

    That said, I relate to just about any 4 description heavily, whether it's a 3 or 5 wing, or even with a specific instinctual stack that is not my own. It really becomes a manner of "best fit" once you get past your core type. So you will probably see yourself a bit in any 4 subtype, but one should hit home a bit more, if you can be honest with yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    4w5's much more withdrawn and a little less reactive [especially if their head-fix is also 5] -- however, slightly more opinionated and assured in their opinions because they seem to be coming from a position of intellectual authority. As for the bad of 4w5's ... hmmm ... I haven't really noticed, because that's not what I look for when observing people.

    4w3's exhume this push and pull between self-hate and self-love and are a lot more expressive. They have a "I'm broken, but I can still achieve a lot" vibe about them. They want attention, but won't go to any lengths for it. As for the bad of 4w3's, I can only speak for myself.
    Great points. The bolded is SPOT ON.

    One bad thing about being a 4w5 is the added detachment from people. The 3 wing can bring detachment from feeling also, but less so from interacting with & connecting with people (even if it's just superficial). Still, the 4w5 looks colder & will be read as such, even if they feel intensely. "Nerdiness" tends to win out over being impressive socially too, whereas it seems opposite for 4w3s.

    That's not to say 4w3s can't be reclusive eccentrics; I mean, look at Michael Jackson..... But then, a 4w5 would've hung himself by age 28 or so .

    4w3s are double image types, but 4w5s have the head "influence". So 4w5s may put greater emphasis on being knowledgeable, just for their own comfort. However, 3s like to be seen as competent & can be quite intellectual too, and so a 4w3 can look 5ish in that way. The idea is to look at WHY. 4w5s acquire this knowledge to ease 5 fears of not being adept to deal with the world. They think they need to understand the world/people before they can enter it & live there. 4w3s most likely do so because they think it will make them more valuable as people to be knowledgeable. Plus, 4s in general tend to be intellectual types seeking meaning, so being bookish is not unusual for any 4.

    I think people are put off by 4w3 thinking it sounds more shallow than 4w5, but it's definitely not. 4w5s can be very frivolous in the knowledge they pursue, and they (er, we) probably flitter away more time in utterly useless "research". 4w3s may be a lot more prolific in what they create/do, because the 3 wing makes them self-sabotage less.

    I wrote this for someone on PerC considering 4w3 vs 4w5. I suspected she was 4w3 & was right, so that's why it has a certain tone; I am not trying to push the OP towards 4w3 though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Me on 4w3 vs 4w5
    The pride in knowing more [than others] can be a 3 wing as well; it can be about impressiveness. The 4 can form a special identity around being an intellectual or knowledgeable. They may have learned this sets them apart, and 4s create identities around what is "different" about themselves. The last part [about getting overwhelmed socially] can just be introversion, especially in an intuitive.

    [4w3s have a] somewhat less withdrawn energy than 4w5s, IMO.

    The 5 "false fear" that motivates them is that they don't have enough mental/emotional energy to function in the world, so they withdraw to reserve that energy & they often seek knowledge to feel more equipped to deal with the world when they must. They'll also substitute knowledge seeking for real experiences & skill-building as its detachment makes it less tiresome & less anxiety-inducing. Instead of seeking practical knowledge, they may likely seek unusual knowledge because being knowledgeable in a special area is more ego-boosting. 5s have a deep anxiety over people/outside things taxing their energy & not being capable of dealing with the external world. Many may not see this as anxiety; they'll just say they prefer to be alone a lot & like to understand things deeply. The 5 is not a loudmouth know-it-all, and may mainly come off a bit know-it-ally when feeling like they need to rely on knowledge as opposed to their own abilities, because they lack faith in their abilities. Something like that .

    What is your second false fear that colors your 4 main fears? Is it fear of being a "loser" in what you value because you feel personal worth is evident in one's achievements? Or fear of being incapable of meeting the demands of life & relationships & thus withdrawing from them to take in knowledge to feel competent & reserve energy?

    I think a lot of introverted 4s see themselves in the 5 aspect of withdrawing to conserve energy, but the reason for it is key to being a 5. The fear of being incapable/helpess can be confused with the feelings of worthlessness a 3 has.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    4w3s are double image types, but 4w5s have the head "influence". So 4w5s may put greater emphasis on being knowledgeable, just for their own comfort. However, 3s like to be seen as competent & can be quite intellectual too, and so a 4w3 can look 5ish in that way. The idea is to look at WHY. 4w5s acquire this knowledge to ease 5 fears of not being adept to deal with the world. They think they need to understand the world/people before they can enter it & live there. 4w3s most likely do so because they think it will make them more valuable as people to be knowledgeable. Plus, 4s in general tend to be intellectual types seeking meaning, so being bookish is not unusual for any 4.
    Exactly .. in fact, I've been discussing this with @SilkRoad about how my motivation as a 4w3 to acquire knowledge is to be seen as impressive and superior compared to other people.

    This honestly stemmed from being envious [but wanting to hide that envy] of my ENTJ brother and INFJ sister who were both mensa members before I could even read.

    I got less attention for intellectual prowess than the two and even though I didn't have the kind of pure intellect those two had, I found ways to be impressive to my parents and then pretty much everyone I ever met by constantly flooding my head with as much knowledge as I could find. I like the praise that I get for my knowledge and intellect, but at the same time, I despise it because somehow it makes me feel deceptive. Very strong 3 influence with the core self-hate of the 4. Strong enough that at one point I considered 3w4 for myself - just as you considered 5 for yourself.

    I was inherently drawn to the arts, so I became a musician and jack of all instead of master of one like both of them to have my own unique place in my family.

    I've seen less love for 4w3's on type forums and a sort of easier acceptance of the 4w5 instead [myself fell into that trap before realizing that my head fix is 5] - but in all honesty, I do like the 3-ish qualities at times. In the end, relying on my 3-wing is what makes me socially graceful, somewhat goal-oriented and just a little more functional in the world when I'm in the right mood. More often than not, I'm also able repress my feelings and chug through any sort of adversity. But I always come back to feeling inadequate and longing for something [what is that something?] in the end .. that particular strain never really goes away. I find myself pursuing something in a 3-like fashion only to reach the destination wondering why it wasn't as great as I imagined it.

  10. #20
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Question:

    Would it be beneficial to develop both wings? I can definitely see it being useful to leverage the w3 in order to drag w5 out of isolation, so to speak. And, is it possible/desirable to do so?
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