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Thread: 4w5 or 5w4?

  1. #1
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    Default 4w5 or 5w4?

    Hi,


    I can't tell if I'm an enneagram 4w5 or 5w4, but I am fairly sure I am one of the two. (Just as background, I am introverted and intuitive but beyond that gave up trying to find my MB type a while ago, and I don't really think actually that there are sixteen types of people, within each of which everyone has the same ordering of the same four cognitive functions.)



    On the '4' side, I consider myself very self-absorbed and prone to envy. It seems to me (whether it is actually true or not is besides the point for the moment) that there are certain things, or experiences, that everyone else has, and I envy them for it. My lack of same seems to me an irretrievable loss or absence that makes my life incomplete. Also, I have an anonymous platform where I engage in a lot of self-absorbed chatter about my feelings. And I do long for a 'rescuer' who will understand and accept the secret self that I don't show to anyone else. And I am very, very sensitive. When people criticise something I've done, especially something I've attempted in the creative realm, I feel a need to withdraw, no matter how constructive the criticism is.



    On the '5' side, I really hate talking about my emotions with almost everyone. The only contexts under which I spoke about my emotions are 1) under anonymity (where I do it quite a bit), and 2) with someone who appeared, for a time, to be my 'rescuer'. But a site said that if you're unsure of whether you're a 4 or a 5, you should consider whether you're uncomfortable talking about your emotions, and I definitely am. I hate when other people ask me about how I 'feel' (again, except my rescuer). Also, I got the impression that 4s are rather more dramatic than 5s. I definitely do not present emotions around other people, don't really interact with most other people on an emotional level, don't react emotionally to them and don't expect/want them to react emotionally to me. Again, my 'rescuer' excepted.



    Also, I don't tend to like to disclose myself to other people, and I've read that's a 5 thing rather than a 4 thing. I only disclose myself (that is, my emotional self) under exceptional circumstances (to my rescuer, under anonymity, or in a foreign language). When I do, though, my expression can become very sensitive, emotional, romantic, etc.



    I seem to tend to like 5w4s' intellectual work more than 4w5s' (Nietzsche over Kierkegaard, Kubrick over Bergman).

  2. #2
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    oh, I forgot to mention I am also often self-conscious and ashamed of myself.

  3. #3
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    You say that you are prone to envy. If that's the case then I would suggest 4w5 over 5w4 for you. Envy is a big thing for E4s. I'd even go as far to say that they are consumed by it in the average to unhealthy stages. It's difficult to describe, especially to those not of the type. It's like everyone else's life is better. Others are able to form more meaningful connections and experiences so easily. There's a concentration on the “lack” and the defectiveness. All of this adds up to create an incredibly volatile and hostile person. Hostility at one self and hostility at others (“normal” and “happy” people).

    I had trouble looking for appropriate descriptors of the type myself. I wanted to find a raw perspective of what others thought of the type, without glossing over cliques. I found this http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/fo...TOPIC_ID=26012
    I thought this was very accurate of what an average/unhealthy 4w3 looks like.

    This is a 4w3 though, so the 3 wing gives it a different flavor as opposed to a 5 wing, but the core stuff is still there. The hostility, the envy, the selfishness (justified because of suffering), etc. I'm guessing a 4w5 would be less expressive, more brooding in isolation, giving less of a damn of being desirable, and overall more icier on the surface.

  4. #4
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    You sound either like a self pres four or a sexual five to me. I think they can seem similar. Self-pres fours are the stoic fours and sexual fives are the more emotional fives, especially with a confidante. I should add, however, that it's pretty standard for 4w5s not to bleed their emotions all over everyone. We tend to be relatively reserved, and share our emotions moreso with our special people or under condition of anonymity, as you say, but especially in creative endeavors.

    I hate being put on the spot with my emotions. I need to be the one putting them out there, you can't pull them out of me. For this reason, therapy doesn't work for me at all. I seem very five-like in those situations and feel much safer approaching everything from an intellectual angle. As a sx/sp 4w5 I think my emotions kind of burst out at times, though, surprising everyone (including myself). I definitely have less control over them.

    I think as far as five vs four goes, the biggest difference is going to be the four will amplify emotions/dwell in them, while a five will feel overwhelmed by them and detach as much as possible. Fives really have a tipping point with their emotions where they draw the line, while fours can get addicted to them, like you can't feel enough. Similarly, I can do the five thing for awhile but I eventually need to return to my home base of feeling.

    As far as artistic interests go... for me it's kind of hit and miss. I'd say overall I prefer four artists, but I love a lot of 5w4 work as well, and it very much speaks to me, too.

  5. #5
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    Thanks both. I don't think I really act like the person in that link, but I have a different wing, and I do withdraw/get my feelings hurt very easily. But I also withdraw out of feeling invaded sometimes as well, as I've heard 5s do. (Oh, and therapy is difficult for me for precisely that reason as well.) So maybe I will look at the instinctual variants then.

  6. #6
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    The reason I brought up that link was to bring to light the types passion (envy), the issue of shame, and how it may manifest. It wasn't meant for you to relate to the behavior line for line. I just wanted you to think about how envy and shame plays out in your life (instinctual variants play an important role in this too). I mean if you are going to decide between types 4 and 5, I would think envy sticks out like a sore thumb.

  7. #7
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    Point taken. The five sin is avarice...I'm not sure in what sense that is meant, but I can identify with both if avarice is meant in, say, an interpersonal sense.

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    It's weird, I felt in a fourish 'mood' for a lot of last year, and now I feel in a fivish 'mood'. But the fundamental type must persist through these moods.

    I think i try to detach from very strong and unpleasant emotions. I like mild emotions however, as they make me thoughtful.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Fives really have a tipping point with their emotions where they draw the line, while fours can get addicted to them, like you can't feel enough. Similarly, I can do the five thing for awhile but I eventually need to return to my home base of feeling.
    Could you tell me what the five 'thing' is (if the four 'thing' is feeling as much as possible)?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoftRains View Post
    Point taken. The five sin is avarice...I'm not sure in what sense that is meant, but I can identify with both if avarice is meant in, say, an interpersonal sense.
    Avarice, in this context, means essentially a withholding - of one's self, time and resources. In order to cope with a complex, overwhelming world, Fives accrue information and insights, gaining confidence by becoming very knowledgeable about something. Ironically, however, this detachment and intellectualization can lead one to become alienated and ignorant of the very same reality they seek to comprehend and, basically, they end up sounding like the Time Cube guy.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

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