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  1. #31
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Based on OP, I'd say ENTJ.

  2. #32
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Trying to type by what he's good at is probably the wrong approach. Be especially wary of typing N/S based on ability to understand.

    Does he prefer to use abstract analogies to explain things? If so, he's probably N. Does he prefer to explain things in terms of concrete components? Probably an S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrian View Post
    He does not see much inherent value in tradition. It deeply annoys him when people stick to methods that are outdated and/or inefficient, and moreso when they are closed-minded about learning new things. For example, he hates it when old people say stuff like "When I was your age, we didn't have this and that" and frown on progressive technology. He has expressed that he never wants to stop learning, even when he gets old and comfortable. But although he isn't big on the concept of tradition, he DOES have a strong set of moral values. He holds this standard to both himself and others.
    This does not rule out S at all. Both ETJ types generally think the way they've come up with is the way to go, so they will frown on things that aren't maximally efficient given their assumptions.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I think it's interesting to note that the idea of Si as a function which brings about traditionalism is completely absent from Jung's original type descriptions. If anything Si doms in particular are more subject to pressure by others.

    Fortunately David Keirsey came along to tell us all how it is....
    Yes, that's the Keirsey stereotype. It's because Si types do tend to hold society together, though. They have Fe and Te as a dom or aux function (these judging functions to actively organize the society we live in) , plus Si, which tends to find comfort in linear structured thought and is cautious to accept new information...so this means they may be most comfortable with the way things consistently are in their world, which *may* mean they uphold tradition...but only because it's personally meaningful to them in their own life and household and upbringing.

    My thing is that I always say about Keirsey is that he almost "gets it" but not quite. It's because he overgeneralizes too much.

    He talks about SJ women pretty much being sexual prudes, for example, but that's a false stereotype...essentially what he's referring to is the value system he saw carried by Fe (and more often accompanied by Si than Ni in xxFJ females) in the mid-20th century WASP-y suburban U.S.

    That was due to the mainstream religious and sexual repression that was viewed as "moral" at that time. It's pretty clear, though, that this is silly if we say this is the way SJ females are, especially in different cultures, different value system upbringings, different time periods, etc.

    SJs are also exposed to a great deal more information now because of us living in the information age, so what is taken in by their Si is much higher in quantity than what Keirsey stereotyped as the white-bread, Christian middle-class SJ of his own generation.

    I get what he was getting at, but he made the mistake of attempting to simultaneously over-generalize (Ne) while throwing in too much detail he had observed in his own life (Si). Keirsey is definitely an INTP.

  4. #34
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes, that's the Keirsey stereotype. It's because Si types do tend to hold society together, though. They have Fe and Te as a dom or aux function (these judging functions to actively organize the society we live in) , plus Si, which tends to find comfort in linear structured thought and is cautious to accept new information...so this means they may be most comfortable with the way things consistently are in their world, which *may* mean they uphold tradition...but only because it's personally meaningful to them in their own life and household and upbringing.
    It's something extremely important you have written there. But in Jung's description of any function he points out that while auxiliary's exist, they are always subordinate to the dominant. Now I can see how some might see this as a perfect example of why Si doms in particular are supposedly known to conform to and enforce past values, but in reality if anyone was going to do that, using Jung's descriptions, it would be the Te doms seconded by the Fe doms, this includes the ENTJ and the ENFJ by the way.

    But none of those is traditionalist it is merely that Te doms wish to use what is most efficient and Fe doms are aware of why they believe certain things work in relation to people.

    All Keirsey did was talk about social roles as they are culturally indoctrinated, even though he didn't put it that way. But his idea's are so final and generalised that they both cover everything and yet leave no space for variability.

    Which to me is why they are unsatisfying.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    It's something extremely important you have written there. But in Jung's description of any function he points out that while auxiliary's exist, they are always subordinate to the dominant. Now I can see how some might see this as a perfect example of why Si doms in particular are supposedly known to conform to and enforce past values, but in reality if anyone was going to do that, using Jung's descriptions, it would be the Te doms seconded by the Fe doms, this includes the ENTJ and the ENFJ by the way.
    Well Te and Fe doms are going to enforce collective logic and collective ethics, respectively. Tradition might be tied to Fe because of social norms, because Te would be more concerned with rules and structure. Fe organizes people and morality, Te organizes the external environment or ideas in an objective and efficient externally measurable manner.

    So sure Te may enforce rules and Fe may enforce social norms. But I think cultural tradition is a lot more complex than saying a particular function or type is responsible for it. I tend to find culture beautiful and deeply important to the human psyche. Tradition is a part of culture, it gives people a tie to where they come from and their own past...and yes, we could say Si has something to do with that. I don't know. One of my interests is cultural preservation. I also like history. I think if we forget our collective past we are doomed to repeat it. For a long time this is why I thought I had Si, but if I have Si, I'd have to be an INFP and that simply does not make sense with how "forceful" I come across, it would appear that Se would make more sense as to what people were seeing as "Te." There is no way in hell Si is my rejected, unconscious function. It makes more sense for it to be my opposing personality complex, or my critical parent function. In fact I think I was using Si as a critical parent shadow function last night when I got irritated with some people, it threw me into my SFJ shadow I think, because I started rubbing my past and tradition of the culture I come from in their faces in a really nasty and sarcastic way, even using the term "son" which is typically used as a condescending term from a superior to an inferior in the South.

    I only realized later that I was so irritated at that point, and felt so irrationally attacked, that I began talking in the past-tense, my culture of birth, collective norms, and shoulds and ought tos, like an SFJ. That would make sense that I was utilizing my opposing personality and critical parent.

    ANYHOO.

    Definitely, definitely not a rejected unconscious function for me. I don't see how that's possible.

    Back on topic: I wouldn't separate Si as far away from the past as you're trying to do, because yes, Si does have to do with the past BUT A HIGHLY PERSONAL INTERIOR PAST. It would require Fe or Te to enforce that highly personal interior past upon others.

    But none of those is traditionalist it is merely that Te doms wish to use what is most efficient and Fe doms are aware of why they believe certain things work in relation to people.
    Well, Fe and Te are concerned with what is collectively normative, not just what works. Te is concerned with what is logically normative (or can be confirmed by experts, as well as being externally measurable) and Fe is concerned with what is normative with their primary group.

    All Keirsey did was talk about social roles as they are culturally indoctrinated, even though he didn't put it that way. But his idea's are so final and generalised that they both cover everything and yet leave no space for variability.

    Which to me is why they are unsatisfying.
    I like his Matrices of Temperament in PUMII. Where I start chafing heavily is in his individual descriptions. I just can't bear it.

    He does say some pretty true things, though. It's just that you have to take parts of it, and it makes it difficult to accept the entire work as a whole, for obvious reasons.

  6. #36
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    Okay this is from Beebe on Eric B's page:

    Si in the dominant:

    Si (ISxJ): Life must be familiar to my storehouse of data

    Si in the aux:

    Si (ESxJ): Teaching others according to what's familiar

    Si in the tertiary:

    Si (INxP): Nostalgic enjoyment of memories, especially childhood (I relate to this)

    Si in the inferior:

    ENxP's might feel inferior when it comes to a storehouse of tangible acts, such as learned order

    ENxP's Dismissed learned methods as irrelevant

    yet in the anima/animus:

    ENxP's enjoying nostalgia together, and exploring them as exciting possibilities

    In the shadow opposing personality complex:

    ESxP's Feel obstructed in or become stubborn about their perceptions of how things once were (this sounds so much like me I wanna die)

    ESxP's Memorized rules and such are stupid and limiting of freedom.

    in the witch/senex/critical parent:

    ISxP's Feel negated in or become disgruntled about rememberance of facts.

    okay we can stop there, we don't have to go all the way down to demonic Si, but I think this gives us a little bit clearer picture of Si as well.

  7. #37
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    Oh wait, here's this too (Si in shadow):

    Si as Opposing Personality: The person is focused primarily on the present (emergent tangible data). The past (stored tangible data) is used as a reference to how it links to the present, which they will stubbornly cling to.

    Si as witch/senex: the person parents others by noticing current tangible data. If this is ignored, they will turn to stored tangible data to criticize things by.

    Si as trickster: Sensory pleasure is a source of childlike relief. If this is threatened, they will reference memorized experiences to get the person off their back.

    Si as demon: the person, immersed in the world of Ni, ultimately wants some connection to the tangible world, usually the present. Under stress, they may turn from present to past reality.




    Source (in case the OP would also like to read about Ni): http://www.erictb.info/archetypes.html

  8. #38
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    ENTjs are typically lighter, absent-minded, a bit scatter-brained and generally more nervous and energetic; they can also easily start conversation with random strangers, quickly make friends - even though they might not be very tactful during such attempts. Generally more easygoing, except for intellectual matters they're interested in. ESTjs come across as focussed and very well attuned to their environment, well-dressed, calm and just more socially integrated; they're also much better with details. However, they're usually more controlling and less likely to purposefully get in touch with someone they don't already have an estabilished relation with.

    Basically, the "vibe" of these two types is really different.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  9. #39
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Si is similar to Ni in that it attaches symbolic meaning to objects and concepts, but for the Si user, the symbolism is purely archetypal and may be completely subconscious...so instead of contemplating what a clock symbolically means, they will have an immediate...hrm...feeling association with clocks, or at least with clocks which look a certain way.
    Or I think of it as "having an impression" of what clocks are like. (But it means the same as you said, it's an impression we feel to determine what is a clock and what is not)
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  10. #40
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron
    Or I think of it as "having an impression" of what clocks are like. (But it means the same as you said, it's an impression we feel to determine what is a clock and what is not)
    I have recently read that Si can be likened to Plato's Forms, sort of "archetypes" of objects. Whereas Ni distills dynamic processes into process-archetypes (eg, rebirth), Si distills static objects into object-archetypes (eg, clock).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Sorry lady, but what I described was Si. But, ESTJ's can come out of their, "closed minded" and "traditional" ways if they develop Ne


    I think Marm's done a great job of clarifying why this is wrong, but I just want to underscore that Si users ARE NOT inherently closed-minded traditionalists.

    It's totally this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    this means they may be most comfortable with the way things consistently are in their world, which *may* mean they uphold tradition...but only because it's personally meaningful to them in their own life and household and upbringing.
    My mom and boyfriend are both ESFJs, and they are by no means closed-minded traditionalists. Interestingly enough, I have more interest in "upholding tradition" than either of them - I tend to be the one pushing for doing the same thing every year or making sure we celebrate certain holidays, and so on. They are both more practical and efficient than most people, readily discarding that which does not work and replacing it with more effective solutions. Neither one is closed-minded at all; both are politically and socially liberal, both are agnostics, and both keep abreast of current affairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    So sure Te may enforce rules and Fe may enforce social norms. But I think cultural tradition is a lot more complex than saying a particular function or type is responsible for it. I tend to find culture beautiful and deeply important to the human psyche. Tradition is a part of culture, it gives people a tie to where they come from and their own past...and yes, we could say Si has something to do with that. I don't know. One of my interests is cultural preservation. I also like history. I think if we forget our collective past we are doomed to repeat it. [...]

    I wouldn't separate Si as far away from the past as you're trying to do, because yes, Si does have to do with the past BUT A HIGHLY PERSONAL INTERIOR PAST. It would require Fe or Te to enforce that highly personal interior past upon others.
    Right, exactly. What I have found with ESFJ boy is that he'll assume things based on his past experience (and totally throw me for a loop). He tends to assume things like my family has been to most restaurants in the area, because we've lived there for a long time, or that I feel certain ways about certain things because his past girlfriends felt certain ways about certain things. On one hand, it's really not a bad ruler to go by - over time, his experiences will deepen and complexify his understanding of what is likely to be, and he will indeed internalize common patterns for static Si-things (eg, [most] women [tend to] like flowers). On the other hand, sometimes it seems like he's not taking the time to collect information about new situations, and in that respect his auxiliary Si can frustrate me - but that's how J first tends to work - Judgments first and Perceiving later. Like Marm explained, Si is likely to be more "forceful" in ESxJs because they primarily Judge and use Si to back up their Judgments (and, for that matter, spend less time refining the content of their Si). Same holds true for ENxJs and Ni, and ExFPs and Fi, and everyone and their auxiliary function - it will be less developed and more blunt, and tend to seem more "controlling" of other people.

    Oh, and ESFJ boyfriend is a snappy dresser, and does not tend to wear suits unless the occasion calls for it (though he looks great in one ).

    Valkyrian - Your boyfriend sounds like he could easily be either, but based on this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrian
    In many ways, he understands what I'm trying to say, but he will completely misunderstand me in other ways. There is a slight difference when I compare our conversations to those with my INTJ friend, who more easily picks up on the meaning of what I'm trying to put into words. My boyfriend requires more explanation from me when I'm trying to express an abstract thought, as he will often take it the wrong way.
    I suspect ESTJ. I have the same experience with my boyfriend, that it takes more explanation to get him to understand my meaning and intentions when I am discussing things in the abstract. Though it could also be the nature of dominant T in tending to grasp logical concepts first and holistic concepts later.

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