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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkyrian View Post
    Oh, he definitely applies whatever he learns to future situations. I'll give a few examples.

    In terms of learning from BAD experiences... He once got revenge on someone he was VERY angry at. After that experience, which I won't describe in detail, he learned that such revenge is a terrible thing to do. He has since had opportunities to enact revenge on others, but he didn't do it because of what he previously learned the hard way.

    Another thing about him is that he's very against drinking and refuses to ever consume alcohol. His father was an alcoholic, which contributed to his parents' divorce.

    If he does something like mess up on a homework assignment, he will learn from that mistake snd apply his new knowledge to future assignments. The same goes for whatever hobbies he's doing.
    Um, STJs tend to learn from their mistakes too. My ISTJ used to bitch about people not ever learning from their past mistakes.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Sorry lady, but what I described was Si. But, ESTJ's can come out of their, "closed minded" and "traditional" ways if they develop Ne
    Si is a linear pattern of thought where a person cautiously regards new information, which must be worked into the existing linear framework. It's highly personal, and I tend to think of it as a filing cabinet in the mind, or a trail of dominoes. Si users tend to prefer depth over breadth, and will pore into a singular subject in minute detail. They also tend to feel most comfortable with things that are either already in, or closely related to, their preferred personal sensory experience. Si is similar to Ni in that it attaches symbolic meaning to objects and concepts, but for the Si user, the symbolism is purely archetypal and may be completely subconscious...so instead of contemplating what a clock symbolically means, they will have an immediate...hrm...feeling association with clocks, or at least with clocks which look a certain way. There's an entire mythology tied to physical objects and sensory experiences in the Si users mind. They also tend to express their Te or Fe in more practical, concrete, or external ways ...however, in ExTJs or ExFJs this can get tricky if you can't tell the difference between Si/Ne and Ni/Se.

    This is Si:

    The Introverted Sensation Type

    The priority of introverted sensation produces a definite type, which is characterized by certain peculiarities. It is an irrational type, inasmuch as its selection among occurrences is not primarily rational, but is guided rather [p. 501] by what just happens. Whereas, the extraverted sensation-type is determined by the intensity of the objective influence, the introverted type is orientated by the intensity of the subjective sensation-constituent released by the objective stimulus. Obviously, therefore, no sort of proportional relation exists between object and sensation, but something that is apparently quite irregular and arbitrary judging from without, therefore, it is practically impossible to foretell what will make an impression and what will not. If there were present a capacity and readiness for expression in any way commensurate with the strength of sensation, the irrationality of this type would be extremely evident. This is the case, for instance, when the individual is a creative artist. But, since this is the exception, it usually happens that the characteristic introverted difficulty of expression also conceals his irrationality. On the contrary, he may actually stand out by the very calmness and passivity of his demeanour, or by his rational self-control. This peculiarity, which often leads the superficial judgment astray, is really due to his unrelatedness to objects. Normally the object is not consciously depreciated in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it, because it is immediately replaced by a subjective reaction, which is no longer related to the reality of the object. This, of course, has the same effect as a depreciation of the object. Such a type can easily make one question why one should exist at all; or why objects in general should have any right to existence, since everything essential happens without the object. This doubt may be justified in extreme cases, though not in the normal, since the objective stimulus is indispensable to his sensation, only it produces something different from what was to be surmised from the external state of affairs. Considered from without, it looks as though the effect of the object [p. 502] did not obtrude itself upon the subject. This impression is so far correct inasmuch as a subjective content does, in fact, intervene from the unconscious, thus snatching away the effect of the object. This intervention may be so abrupt that the individual appears to shield himself directly from any possible influence of the object. In any aggravated or well-marked case, such a protective guard is also actually present. Even with only a slight reinforcement of the unconscious, the subjective constituent of sensation becomes so alive that it almost completely obscures the objective influence. The results of this are, on the one hand, a feeling of complete depreciation on the part of the object, and, on the other, an illusory conception of reality on the part of the subject, which in morbid cases may even reach the point of a complete inability to discriminate between the real object and the subjective perception. Although so vital a distinction vanishes completely only in a practically psychotic state, yet long before that point is reached subjective perception may influence thought, feeling, and action to an extreme degree, in spite of the fact that the object is clearly seen in its fullest reality. Whenever the objective influence does succeed in forcing its way into the subject -- as the result of particular circumstances of special intensity, or because of a more perfect analogy with the unconscious image -- even the normal example of this type is induced to act in accordance with his unconscious model. Such action has an illusory quality in relation to objective reality, and therefore has a very odd and strange character. It instantly reveals the anti-real subjectivity of the type, But, where the influence of the object does not entirely succeed, it encounters a benevolent neutrality, disclosing little sympathy, yet constantly striving to reassure and adjust. The too-low is raised a little, the too-high is made a little lower; the enthusiastic is damped, the [p. 503] extravagant restrained; and the unusual brought within the 'correct' formula: all this in order to keep the influence of the object within the necessary bounds. Thus, this type becomes an affliction to his circle, just in so far as his entire harmlessness is no longer above suspicion. But, if the latter should be the case, the individual readily becomes a victim to the aggressiveness and ambitions of others. Such men allow themselves to be abused, for which they usually take vengeance at the most unsuitable occasions with redoubled stubbornness and resistance. When there exists no capacity for artistic expression, all impressions sink into the inner depths, whence they hold consciousness under a spell, removing any possibility it might have had of mastering the fascinating impression by means of conscious expression. Relatively speaking, this type has only archaic possibilities of expression for the disposal of his impressions; thought and feeling are relatively unconscious, and, in so far as they have a certain consciousness, they only serve in the necessary, banal, every-day expressions. Hence as conscious functions, they are wholly unfitted to give any adequate rendering of the subjective perceptions. This type, therefore, is uncommonly inaccessible to an objective understanding and he fares no better in the understanding of himself.

    Above all, his development estranges him from the reality of the object, handing him over to his subjective perceptions, which orientate his consciousness in accordance with an archaic reality, although his deficiency in comparative judgment keeps him wholly unaware of this fact. Actually he moves in a mythological world, where men animals, railways, houses, rivers, and mountains appear partly as benevolent deities and partly as malevolent demons. That thus they, appear to him never enters his mind, although their effect upon his judgments and acts can bear no other interpretation. He judges and acts as [p. 504] though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality. If his tendency is to reason objectively, he will sense this difference as morbid; but if, on the other hand, he remains faithful to his irrationality, and is prepared to grant his sensation reality value, the objective world will appear a mere make-belief and a comedy. Only in extreme cases, however, is this dilemma reached. As a rule, the individual acquiesces in his isolation and in the banality of the reality, which, however, he unconsciously treats archaically.

    His unconscious is distinguished chiefly by the repression of intuition, which thereby acquires an extraverted and archaic character. Whereas true extraverted intuition has a characteristic resourcefulness, and a 'good nose' for every possibility in objective reality, this archaic, extraverted intuition has an amazing flair for every ambiguous, gloomy, dirty, and dangerous possibility in the background of reality. In the presence of this intuition the real and conscious intention of the object has no significance; it will peer behind every possible archaic antecedent of such an intention. It possesses, therefore, something dangerous, something actually undermining, which often stands in most vivid contrast to the gentle benevolence of consciousness. So long as the individual is not too aloof from the object, the unconscious intuition effects a wholesome compensation to the rather fantastic and over credulous attitude of consciousness. But as soon as the unconscious becomes antagonistic to consciousness, such intuitions come to the surface and expand their nefarious influence: they force themselves compellingly upon the individual, releasing compulsive ideas about objects of the most perverse kind. The neurosis arising from this sequence of events is usually a compulsion neurosis, in which the hysterical characters recede and are obscured by symptoms of exhaustion. [p. 505]
    Now stop your shit.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The awesome factor could be an indication of ENTJ, does he dress in suits or is he a snappy dresser?
    Gosh yeah does he eat peanut butter? Does he watch tv? He might be an ENTJ!


  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Gosh yeah does he eat peanut butter? Does he watch tv? He might be an ENTJ!

    Marmie your undying love for me is truly flattering

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Marmie your undying love for me is truly flattering
    You mean my undying love for correcting your rigid incorrect ideas?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You mean my undying love for correcting your rigid incorrect ideas?
    That's not how I read it

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's not how I read it
    To put it simply, an ESTJ could have a very particular Si style. I've noticed this with SJ boyfriends or friends I've had, AND my ISTJ grandfather. They may have a very particular personal aesthetic that they carefully cultivate. For example, my ESFJ ex loved punk music and obscure horror, and his style tended to adhere to a lot of black and red, and rare underground tee shirts for 60's-70's horror cinema or replicas of classic punk shirts. He was also always extremely clean and scrupulously groomed, so it looked very image-conscious rather than what you might think of a guy who sometimes wore band tee shirts. Another ISFJ ex of mine had a closet FULL of Abercrombie and Hollister, and he spent more on clothes and had more bottles of cologne than me. ISTJ wears black tee shirts with jeans and converse, but also wears $300 pairs of jeans and has extremely interesting hairstyles, some of which hearken back to his interest in 80's New Wave. My ISTJ grandfather pretty much had a functional uniform of khaki pants and golf shirts, but any time he went out to dinner or to church, he wore a really fancy suit, polished his shoes, buffed his nails, and wore cologne. He even used to give himself facials.

    So looking "fabulous" or "stylish" has nothing to to do with being NTJ versus STJ. You simply have to look at the motivations. For example, an ever-changing style that attempts to keep up with what is going to make the most impact in the moment may be more of a sign of an ENTJ with strong tertiary Se; but an expensive, high-quality tasteful timeless suit may be the mark of the ESTJ because of his carefully cultivated Si.

    So don't over-simplify.

  8. #28
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I think that this pretty much cancels out the possibility of ESTJ for him. This seems ENTJ.
    I'm an ESTJ and there are few things I hate more than someone rejecting proposals on the basis of "because we've always done it this way". If that person is unable to give me an explanation why X has always been done this way, I will not take him/her seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitsuko Souma View Post
    ENTJ: Te-Ni-Se-Fi
    ESTJ: Te-Si-Ne-Fi

    In terms of it being between EXTJ; its whether they use Ni over Si. Howerver an "intuitive ESTJ" is not the same as an "ENTJ." ESTJ use Ne and ENTJ use Ni. I hope that helps clarify that.
    I don't think you said anything she doesn't already know.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

  9. #29
    Senior Member Mitsuko Souma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    I don't think you said anything she doesn't already know.
    Indeed, she notified me about that already. lol

  10. #30
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I think it's interesting to note that the idea of Si as a function which brings about traditionalism is completely absent from Jung's original type descriptions. If anything Si doms in particular are more subject to pressure by others.

    Fortunately David Keirsey came along to tell us all how it is....

    Quote Originally Posted by SD45T-2 View Post
    I'm an ESTJ and there are few things I hate more than someone rejecting proposals on the basis of "because we've always done it this way". If that person is unable to give me an explanation why X has always been done this way, I will not take him/her seriously.
    Exactly, Te is all about efficiency and application. It is about a universal formula of none-bias which all are subject to including the Te dominate. New proposals as well as old methods can be efficient and so both will be given due examination.

    Even if Si was the function of sticking to how things were, which I must stress again was not what Jung said of it at all, it would still be subordinate to Te in an ESTJ.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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