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  1. #61
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Yet NF and SJ are so clearly dichotomized as to have nothing in common to be confused about.
    But that's using keirsey temperaments, which are very separate from MBTI, or JCF.

    What he talks about could most readily be defined as social roles and persona, it has nothing to do with the whole of personality or cognition.

    As I said in my thread on his work, his definitions are so concrete and absolute that they would be difficult to apply to people as individuals.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Basically im unsure of my understanding of the functions. I dont really relate to any individual type description, (although this is not where my perception of description's faults comes from), this means I often turn for outside help which so far is divided on Ni and Si much as I am.

    I doesn't help that people often misunderstand Si and sensing in general.
    I'm saying you should look at this from a different angle instead of focusing on functions all the time. I find them equally confusing so I have mostly abandoned them.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #63
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    But that's using keirsey temperaments, which are very separate from MBTI, or JCF.

    What he talks about could most readily be defined as social roles and persona, it has nothing to do with the whole of personality or cognition.

    As I said in my thread on his work, his definitions are so concrete and absolute that they would be difficult to apply to people as individuals.
    Well good. I see no problem with concrete and absolute. It seems that the problem has been the very lack of concrete and absolute.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #64
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    The MBTI tries to pin me down to ONE TYPE. That seems a bit restrictive. And yet I have chosen INTP although it doesn't define who I am.

    They are all restrictive and absolute. But they could stand to be a bit more concrete sometimes.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I'm saying you should look at this from a different angle instead of focusing on functions all the time. I find them equally confusing so I have mostly abandoned them.
    Ya I am wearing your same shoes, where I act most like INTP, but based on functions could get typed ISTP or INTJ, but INTP balances those anyway. Jung cognitive functions is a bullshit theory lol.

  6. #66
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Ya I am wearing your same shoes, where I act most like INTP, but based on functions could get typed ISTP or INTJ, but INTP balances those anyway. Jung cognitive functions is a bullshit theory lol.
    So would you say outward behaviour is better then?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Well good. I see no problem with concrete and absolute. It seems that the problem has been the very lack of concrete and absolute.
    Normally id agree with you because that's how I like things, but unfortunately people themselves are not concrete or absolute, even the most clearly defined person in the world is filled to the brim with contradictions and variables.

    And people do, (for want of a better word), change all the time, maybe not at the core of who they are, but they do adopt persona's and different behaviours for different situations. How does one differentiate between the most re-occuring to those that are just occasional?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    So would you say outward behaviour is better then?
    I'll put in my 2 cents here and say that I would look at outward behavior as the best rule of thumb because that's all we have with other people. Of course it helps if they reveal some things to you. But you can't deny it's obvious concreteness in opposition to vaguely defined things in the mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Normally id agree with you because that's how I like things, but unfortunately people themselves are not concrete or absolute, even the most clearly defined person in the world is filled to the brim with contradictions and variables.

    And people do, (for want of a better word), change all the time, maybe not at the core of who they are, but they do adopt persona's and different behaviours for different situations. How does one differentiate between the most re-occuring to those that are just occasional?
    Preferences. Self-knowledge.

    Take this "test question" as an example.

    Rate on a scale from 1 - 7, with 7 being the most: "I prefer the company of others to being alone."

    I'm thinking that sometimes I like the company of others. It all depends. And I have social skills which I have developed over the years. But in truth, I don't like to be around people much, and I tire of it quickly. Socializing takes too much energy and time. So I'll say 3.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #68
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I'll put in my 2 cents here and say that I would look at outward behavior as the best rule of thumb because that's all we have with other people. Of course it helps if they reveal some things to you. But you can't deny it's obvious concreteness in opposition to vaguely defined things in the mind.
    This is true to an extent, but whatever else personality might be, it is intangible. How do you apply concreteness to intangibility? Of course this makes MBTI and Jung in general sound like a mere belief, which perhaps it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Preferences. Self-knowledge.

    Take this "test question" as an example.

    Rate on a scale from 1 - 7, with 7 being the most: "I prefer the company of others to being alone."

    I'm thinking that sometimes I like the company of others. It all depends. And I have social skills which I have developed over the years. But in truth, I don't like to be around people much, and I tire of it quickly. Socializing takes too much energy and time. So I'll say 3.
    See now to me, I have no idea how someone could quantify that, I dont wish to be difficult and I respect that you can quantify it, but I would constantly be going over that, trying to get a 'feel' if you will for what seemed best. Locking it down into numbers makes little sense to me, it isn't like measuring cooking ingredients.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    This is true to an extent, but whatever else personality might be, it is intangible. How do you apply concreteness to intangibility? Of course this makes MBTI and Jung in general sound like a mere belief, which perhaps it is.



    See now to me, I have no idea how someone could quantify that, I dont wish to be difficult and I respect that you can quantify it, but I would constantly be going over that, trying to get a 'feel' if you will for what seemed best. Locking it down into numbers makes little sense to me, it isn't like measuring cooking ingredients.
    The truth of it all doesn't matter; what the system can do for you is what matters.

    I can tell you don't like absolutes, but these personality system authors are big on declaring their systems to be the Truth. Look at Riso, my all-time favorite. He is utterly dogmatic, so convinced of his system's superiority that he has forced other systems (such as the 7 deadly sins of his old church) to conform to its rules, even if he has to invent 2 more deadly sins to make it add up to the magic number 9. And yet identifying myself as a 4 was the most life-changing thing that I've done for myself, even though a month later I decided I was actually a 5w4.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #70
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    The truth of it all doesn't matter; what the system can do for you is what matters.

    I can tell you don't like absolutes, but these personality system authors are big on declaring their systems to be the Truth. Look at Riso, my all-time favorite. He is utterly dogmatic, so convinced of his system's superiority that he has forced other systems (such as the 7 deadly sins of his old church) to conform to its rules, even if he has to invent 2 more deadly sins to make it add up to the magic number 9. And yet identifying myself as a 4 was the most life-changing thing that I've done for myself, even though a month later I decided I was actually a 5w4.
    Well said actually. Especially the bolded.

    This is something ive tried to think of myself, but maybe it just isn't that beneficial for me? Afterall im not very good at putting theories into practice, in terms of helping my relations towards others.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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