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  1. #51
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "the only problem with descriptions is they can get filtered down to vague traits that anyone could possess."

    Your original description of the problem was also vague compared to your new one.

    Besides, Jung provided type descriptions which can suffer the same filtered-down fate.
    Very true. But so what? I also dont see how my original description of the problem was vague. I was talking about stereotypes.

    While Jung's functions can suffer from a filtered-down-fate as well, I see it as less likely to happen due to how he wrote them, but this is only my personal view.

    But this is all about opinions so I dont see why you even started this argument in the first place. You may trust descriptions of type more than I do. I dont have a problem with that and nor would I belittle your judgement if you did.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Very true. But so what? I also dont see how my original description was vague. I was talking about stereotypes.
    "Can get filtered down" is a passive tense verb form that specifies no subject. (Example, "No subject was specified [by whom?] in your sentence.") Who is doing the filtering? Blank. Later you clarified this by stating that people filter them down. Since you specified no subject, I thought you were blaming the descriptions. And you recommended abandoning the descriptions as if it were their fault. So do you see how confusing your original statement was?

    Let me offer a solution to the problem you mentioned. I believe it's a real problem. But the solution is to go back to the descriptions and re-read them, not toss them out because some unspecified people filtered them down. I am one of those who constantly references type descriptions without destroying their meaning. I can't buy your argument at all.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #53
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I can't buy your argument at all.
    Perhaps because im not really making one. I was just expressing opinion, you disagreed with it which is fine. I dont toss out type descriptions completely but I believe you need to be careful with them.

    Im not here to convince you of anything.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Perhaps because im not really making one. I was just expressing opinion, you disagreed with it which is fine. I dont toss out type descriptions but I believe you need to be careful with them.

    Im not here to convince you of anything.
    Convince me.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #55
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Convince me.
    To what end?

    Can I ask, do you see what i wrote as assumptive, unsubstantiated gibberish that has too many holes and maybe even needs to be corrected? Or is there a different motive?

    Is it to offer me a different perspective maybe? Or maybe you think im dismissing helpful information unfairly? But you have already influenced my view. What is it that you want?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    To what end?

    Can I ask, do you see what i wrote as assumptive, unsubstantiated gibberish that has too many holes and maybe even needs to be corrected? Or is there a different motive?

    Is it to offer me a different perspective maybe? Or maybe you think im dismissing helpful information unfairly? But you have already influenced my view. What is it that you want?
    To have fun and learn something. That's what these forums are for, right?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #57
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    To have fun and learn something. That's what these forums are for, right?
    An unsatisfying answer but fair enough. Maybe it is the real answer...

    Although I would not mind yours or anyone elses input on either my type or the theory/ies. Perhaps ESFJ!
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    An unsatisfying answer but fair enough. Maybe it is the real answer...

    Although I would not mind yours or anyone elses input on either my type or the theory/ies. Perhaps ESFJ!
    The thing is, I don't like to use JCF very much because of the way I've seen it being applied. For example, nobody really knows how a tertiary function affects a personality. And there are both positive and negative effects. So this lack of knowledge can be used to opportunistically justify type calls and to rationalize away contradictions.

    But right now I am moving away from complex type descriptions (not that they're wrong) and experimenting with using simple archetypal names. I don't know anybody else who types people this way. With this method, I try to get an over-all impression of a person based on evidence, and then search for the archetype that fits best, or towards which the bulk of the evidence generally points.

    An example of an archetypal name would be the name given to the type 5 personality by some authors - the Observer.

    P.s., What's wrong with INFJ for your type?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #59
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    P.s., What's wrong with INFJ for your type?
    Basically im unsure of my understanding of the functions. I dont really relate to any individual type description, (although this is not where my perception of description's faults comes from), this means I often turn for outside help which so far is divided on Ni and Si much as I am.

    I doesn't help that people often misunderstand Si and sensing in general.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Basically im unsure of my understanding of the functions. I dont really relate to any individual description, this means I often turn for outside help which so far is divided on Ni and Si much as I am.

    I doesn't help that people often misunderstanding Si and sensing in general.
    Yet NF and SJ are so clearly dichotomized as to have nothing in common to be confused about.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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