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  1. #91
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Er whut?

    I think you will find that the rules I mentioned were the rules of the tabletop game Warhammer Fantasy, set down by Games Workshop which is the retailing company that owns the Warhammer license, nothing to do with my club or 'house rules' as they are known.

    Incidentally, you dont put your faith in cognitive functions....but suddenly my act of asking others for advice is non-Ti? Which is it? You cannot just disregard something but then pick it up when it suits you.

    That's called inconsistancy.
    I don't use functions for typing others. Not primarily. Focusing on the details of the rules - that's ISFJ or something.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #92
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I don't use functions for typing others. Not primarily. Focusing on the details of the rules - that's ISFJ or something.
    By the nature of what warhammer tabletop is....it is impossible to NOT pay attention to the details of the rules. It isn't that I do something that others who play it dont, if they want to have a knowledge of the game so they can strategise they need to understand the rules well.

    Ok think about it like this, imagine someone offered you a game of chess, but you had never played or had only played a few times, surely you would want to acquire a knowledge of the rules so as to understand how to play?

    And this mindset of knowing the rules of games is not something I apply to the rest of life.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    By the nature of what warhammer tabletop is....it is impossible to NOT pay attention to the details of the rules. It isn't that I do something that others who play it dont, if they want to have a knowledge of the game so they can strategise they need to understand the rules well.

    Ok think about it like this, imagine someone offered you a game of chess, but you had never played or had only played a few times, surely you would want to acquire a knowledge of the rules so as to understand how to play?
    If other players are coming to you to find out the rules, then you must have a knack for knowing and following them. That is the opposite of my ISFP wife who goes through life not bothering to know the rules and often breaking them. I lived with an ISFJ for over a decade. Having 3 letters in common means nothing. Their respective attitudes toward things like the rules are polar opposites.

    "if they want to have a knowledge of the game so they can strategise they need to understand the rules well." Yes, they would do better knowing the rules. However, it's YOUR judgment that says they need to know the rules. It's your ISFJ judgment that focuses on this, perhaps even requires this.

    We still haven't discussed this:

    "I think I would be an NT of some kind because im always trying to acquire capabilities. And as Keirsey says:
    The NT is the most self-critical of all the styles. He badgers himself about his errors, taxes himself with the resolve to improve, and ruthlessly monitors his own progress. He continually checks the pulse of his skills and takes his conceptual temperature on the hour every hour. He must master understanding of all objects and events whether human or extrahuman, physical or metaphysical, in whatever domain he stakes out as his arena or competency."

    In the NT context, he's talking about an intellectual domain, not a social game. Chess is a better example of an intellectual domain than Warhammer.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #94
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    If other players are coming to you to find out the rules, then you must have a knack for knowing and following them. That is the opposite of my ISFP wife who goes through life not bothering to know the rules and often breaking them. I lived with an ISFJ for over a decade. Having 3 letters in common means nothing. Their respective attitudes toward things like the rules are polar opposites.
    I think you are forgetting that this is only in the context of my hobby, as I said, in the rest of my life following and retaining a knowledge of rules is not my forte, in fact im pretty bad at it, but with Warhammer there is an interest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Yes, they would do better knowing the rules. However, it's YOUR judgment that says they need to know the rules. It's your ISFJ judgment that focuses on this, perhaps even requires this.
    Once again only within the context of the game. Im not much of a rules enforcer, people come to me I do not come to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    We still haven't discussed this:

    " I think I would be an NT of some kind because im always trying to acquire capabilities. And as Keirsey says:
    The NT is the most self-critical of all the styles. He badgers himself about his errors, taxes himself with the resolve to improve, and ruthlessly monitors his own progress. He continually checks the pulse of his skills and takes his conceptual temperature on the hour every hour. He must master understanding of all objects and events whether human or extrahuman, physical or metaphysical, in whatever domain he stakes out as his arena or competency."

    In the NT context, he's talking about an intellectual domain, not a social game. Chess is a better example of an intellectual domain than Warhammer.
    And I mentioned chess as well as a study of cognitive functions as part of my examples. I do play chess as well. And how do you know it is to do with an intellectual domain? Im reading the NT section of 'Please Understand Me' and he does not mention intellectualism in particular, merely a drive to perfect and acquire capabilities, regardless of context. The NT temperament might lean towards intellectual pursuits but they are not focused entirely within that sphere.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #95
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I think you are forgetting that this is only in the context of my hobby, as I said, in the rest of my life following and retaining a knowledge of rules is not my forte, in fact im pretty bad at it, but with Warhammer there is an interest.


    Once again only within the context of the game. Im not much of a rules enforcer, people come to me I do not come to them.



    And I mentioned chess as well as a study of cognitive functions as part of my examples. I do play chess as well. And how do you know it is to do with an intellectual domain? Im reading the NT section of 'Please Understand Me' and he does not mention intellectualism in particular, merely a drive to perfect and acquire capabilities, regardless of context. The NT temperament might lean towards intellectual pursuits but they are not focused entirely within that sphere.
    Then let's have a look at one of Keirsey's little boxes. (Page 29 in my edition)

    NF - Abstract Cooperator SJ - Concrete Cooperator

    NT - Abstract Utilitarian SP - Concrete Utilitarian

    Are you abstract or concrete? Cooperative or utilitarian?

    On kind of a side note, on the very next page, Keirsey writes the following about JCF:

    I must say I have never found a use for this scheme of psychological functions, and this is because function typology sets out to define different people's mental make-up - what's in their heads - something which is not observable, and which is unavoidably subjective, a matter of speculation and occasionally of projection."

    I'm not Keirseyan in this sense, as I've seen Jung describing the outward manifestations of type. But the MBTI ALSO rejects Jung, as that system is also based on external behaviors. Perception and Judging are particularly external. The last 20 years or so has simply been a push to "return to Jung."

    However, I'm not against any system as they are all somewhat arbitrary. And I was surprised to hop onto this forum almost a year ago and find that people were ideologically divided - over this stuff? This, of all the unimportant things in the universe, something that basically boils down to a hobby that nobody here will ever make anything with.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #96
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I think you are forgetting that this is only in the context of my hobby, as I said, in the rest of my life following and retaining a knowledge of rules is not my forte, in fact im pretty bad at it, but with Warhammer there is an interest.


    Once again only within the context of the game. Im not much of a rules enforcer, people come to me I do not come to them.



    And I mentioned chess as well as a study of cognitive functions as part of my examples. I do play chess as well. And how do you know it is to do with an intellectual domain? Im reading the NT section of 'Please Understand Me' and he does not mention intellectualism in particular, merely a drive to perfect and acquire capabilities, regardless of context. The NT temperament might lean towards intellectual pursuits but they are not focused entirely within that sphere.
    Then let's have a look at one of Keirsey's little boxes. (Page 29 in my edition)

    NF - Abstract Cooperator SJ - Concrete Cooperator

    NT - Abstract Utilitarian SP - Concrete Utilitarian

    Are you abstract or concrete? Cooperative or utilitarian?

    On kind of a side note, on the very next page, Keirsey writes the following about JCF:

    "I must say I have never found a use for this scheme of psychological functions, and this is because function typology sets out to define different people's mental make-up - what's in their heads - something which is not observable, and which is unavoidably subjective, a matter of speculation and occasionally of projection."

    I'm not Keirseyan in this sense, as I've seen Jung describing the outward manifestations of type. But the MBTI ALSO rejects Jung, as that system is also based on external behaviors. Perception and Judging are particularly external. The last 20 years or so has simply been a push to "return to Jung."

    However, I'm not against any system as they are all somewhat arbitrary. And I was surprised to hop onto this forum almost a year ago and find that people were ideologically divided - over this stuff? This, of all the unimportant things in the universe, something that basically boils down to a hobby that nobody here will ever make anything with.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #97
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Then let's have a look at one of Keirsey's little boxes. (Page 29 in my edition)

    NF - Abstract Cooperator SJ - Concrete Cooperator

    NT - Abstract Utilitarian SP - Concrete Utilitarian

    Are you abstract or concrete? Cooperative or utilitarian?

    On kind of a side note, on the very next page, Keirsey writes the following about JCF:

    "I must say I have never found a use for this scheme of psychological functions, and this is because function typology sets out to define different people's mental make-up - what's in their heads - something which is not observable, and which is unavoidably subjective, a matter of speculation and occasionally of projection."

    I'm not Keirseyan in this sense, as I've seen Jung describing the outward manifestations of type. But the MBTI ALSO rejects Jung, as that system is also based on external behaviors. Perception and Judging are particularly external. The last 20 years or so has simply been a push to "return to Jung."

    However, I'm not against any system as they are all somewhat arbitrary. And I was surprised to hop onto this forum almost a year ago and find that people were ideologically divided - over this stuff? This, of all the unimportant things in the universe, something that basically boils down to a hobby that nobody here will ever make anything with.
    Good points, but you know people; they can get very worked up over their hobbies. Heh im a good example of that *cough* warhammer *cough*.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Ah. Well I would say I see a difference between computer games and warhammer, but in fairness they both come under the overall heading of 'games'.

    Incidentally you said you now believe it is better to go off behavior rather than try and understand the confusing nature of cognition for understanding one's type.

    If so, I think I would be an NT of some kind because im always trying to acquire capabilities.
    Keirsey also says that the SP type wants to acquire skills. Artisan skills, I'm guessing. It depends on what kind of skills you're talking about.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #99
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Keirsey also says that the SP type wants to acquire skills. Artisan skills, I'm guessing. It depends on what kind of skills you're talking about.
    Im sure you know that this back and forth on the temperaments was only a long way around of showing you how difficult I find them for use in typing, self or otherwise.

    Of course the motive behind wanting this knowledge in the first place should be the top priority.

    As for the artisan skills, well those are somewhat more defined as being about something inherent to that person. As Keirsey puts it:

    Means- Ends


    SP = Abilities> Performance

    NT= Performance>Abilities

    In other words, as he explains it, the SP's possess their talents and then perform with them, the NT's Perform and then try to use this to perfect and acquire abilities.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Im sure you know that this back and forth on the temperaments was only a long way around of showing you how difficult I find them for use in typing, self or otherwise.

    Of course the motive behind wanting this knowledge in the first place should be the top priority.
    Even if just out of curiosity.

    The main issue I see with typing is using a microscope on oneself and others. I agree with Keirsey that we need to be more holistic. Jung only contributes to the problem of microscopic analysis, and the MBTI simply follows suit. So lately I've chosen to use broader terms.

    Still, the ISFP as a "Composer" does not match anybody I know, such as my wife. And a Composer is not necessarily an ISFP. So I don't use Keirsey much. My ESFP step-daughter is not a Performer per se.

    I get far more help in life from observing other people's mistakes and trying not to make the same mistakes.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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