Type 6 or 9?

[Hazashin]

Wouldn't it be useful to have Haz define what he sees as Sp if we're talking about it?

Otherwise, it's all a little moot point. Self Preservation for me is all about being comfortable internally and seeking happiness (that means living to my full potential, having courage and following my dreams or things that I find interesting). If we're talking about looking after our own health, being in a pleasant looking environment or even enjoying the sensual aspects of life. That's so far away from me at the moment that I can laugh. In that sense, for 6s and 9s, SP would probably be an extremely common dominant instinct imo.

Err, you might have to elaborate on this. I'm not sure what Sp you would be talking about.

 

[Hazashin]

[MENTION=13609]Hazashin[/MENTION]

-Focus on being sexually desirable is Sx
-Focus on find a partner or deep conections, not always. Actually everyone wants to find somebody to love.

I focus on both.

Then yes, you're a 6. 6w5

Hmm... I relate WAY more to the 6w7 descriptions than 6w5, and my motivations match 7 more than they do 5.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Err, you might have to elaborate on this. I'm not sure what Sp you would be talking about.

Just your own ideas of what self preservation is like.

 

[Hazashin]

Just your own ideas of what self preservation is like.

Well, if you're talking about the instinct, then it focuses on having enough resources, security of their body/well-being, which includes wanting more-than-adequate shelter, physical comfort, having practicalities in order, safe environment, safety of the body, well-being of the body/health, and privacy.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Well, if you're talking about the instinct, then it focuses on having enough resources, security of their body/well-being, which includes wanting more-than-adequate shelter, physical comfort, having practicalities in order, safe environment, safety of the body, well-being of the body/health, and privacy.

Thanks.
I usually see the description as focused more on the external and physical element of security, when most of self-preservation is more of an internal comfort thing for myself as an individual. I don't know whether it's that weird of an idea, but based on this principle, I wouldn't be too surprised to find individuals that totally neglect the external environment in terms of comfort in order to maintain mental comfort. For me, sp manifests as wanting security and comfort within close friends etc... that's what I'm more concerned about but I'm supposedly sp/sx.

Ultimately I think self-preservation is more about the internal comfort, and stuff like shelter and safe environments are secondary factors that 'typically' serve internal comfort in people. I wouldn't be surprised if it manifested differently for different people.

 

[Thalassa]

6s are a highly reactive type, even when they are phobic.

I agree with [MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION] that it's highly likely that [MENTION=13609]Hazashin[/MENTION] is a 9w1 sx/sp.

9s can show 6 traits under disintegration (like fear, anxiety for security, etc.) just like a 6 can show 3 traits under disintegration (look at me! look at me! look at me go!) ...I know for a fact that I disintegrate at a terrible performing, achieving 3 and mellow out and get happier at a inwardly centered, mystical, intimate 9.

I've known a 9w1 sx/so and he constantly needed intimacy, not just daily, but all day long ...on the other hand, he still managed to usually keep the placidity and detachment of a 9, while I got more emotionally intense and reactive with him sometimes. He did get reactive with me, but very rarely, and in that 9-ish way that comes out of nowhere after months and smacks you in the face, that all along they were "hiding" insecurity or jealousy or anger or resentment or whatever.

I just have a difficult time believing [MENTION=13609]Hazashin[/MENTION] is an sx/sp 6w7 like I am, even if he's phobic and has Ne instead of Se...I'm on another forum where there are 6w7s and other sx doms, and they're all pretty intense, especially an INTP female who is a mod, she's a 6w7 sx and there's something about her that is a little like me, it's just a vibe thing.

You vibe 9, OP.

 

[Hazashin]

6s are a highly reactive type, even when they are phobic.

I agree with [MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION] that it's highly likely that [MENTION=13609]Hazashin[/MENTION] is a 9w1 sx/sp.

9s can show 6 traits under disintegration (like fear, anxiety for security, etc.) just like a 6 can show 3 traits under disintegration (look at me! look at me! look at me go!) ...I know for a fact that I disintegrate at a terrible performing, achieving 3 and mellow out and get happier at a inwardly centered, mystical, intimate 9.

I've known a 9w1 sx/so and he constantly needed intimacy, not just daily, but all day long ...on the other hand, he still managed to usually keep the placidity and detachment of a 9, while I got more emotionally intense and reactive with him sometimes. He did get reactive with me, but very rarely, and in that 9-ish way that comes out of nowhere after months and smacks you in the face, that all along they were "hiding" insecurity or jealousy or anger or resentment or whatever.

I just have a difficult time believing [MENTION=13609]Hazashin[/MENTION] is an sx/sp 6w7 like I am, even if he's phobic and has Ne instead of Se...I'm on another forum where there are 6w7s and other sx doms, and they're all pretty intense, especially an INTP female who is a mod, she's a 6w7 sx and there's something about her that is a little like me, it's just a vibe thing.

You vibe 9, OP.

My motivations and fears are much more 6 than 9. Also, possibly the reason why I'm not so intense is because I am in somewhat of an Fi/Si loop, which correlates to the Avoidant Personality Disorder.

 

[Elfboy]

6s are a highly reactive type, even when they are phobic.

I agree with Speed Gavroche that it's highly likely that Hazashin is a 9w1 sx/sp.

9s can show 6 traits under disintegration (like fear, anxiety for security, etc.) just like a 6 can show 3 traits under disintegration (look at me! look at me! look at me go!) ...I know for a fact that I disintegrate at a terrible performing, achieving 3 and mellow out and get happier at a inwardly centered, mystical, intimate 9.

I've known a 9w1 sx/so and he constantly needed intimacy, not just daily, but all day long ...on the other hand, he still managed to usually keep the placidity and detachment of a 9, while I got more emotionally intense and reactive with him sometimes. He did get reactive with me, but very rarely, and in that 9-ish way that comes out of nowhere after months and smacks you in the face, that all along they were "hiding" insecurity or jealousy or anger or resentment or whatever.

I just have a difficult time believing Hazashin is an sx/sp 6w7 like I am, even if he's phobic and has Ne instead of Se...I'm on another forum where there are 6w7s and other sx doms, and they're all pretty intense, especially an INTP female who is a mod, she's a 6w7 sx and there's something about her that is a little like me, it's just a vibe thing.

You vibe 9, OP.

I gotta admit, I've talked to [MENTION=13609]Hazashin[/MENTION] a lot and the bold sounds just like him, minus the all of a sudden, out of nowhere 9 flip outs (you're totally right though, 9s do this a lot and it gets on my nerves). I'm starting to see more of a case for core 9

 

[Hazashin]

[...] You vibe 9, OP.

Also, Marm, I'm not reactive, but I sure as hell let problems and failures bog me down. It's very hard for me to get over this; I simply can't "let things go" sometimes, depending on what it is. And I have a mild case of Avoidant Personality Disorder, and I often misconstrue things to be negative about myself. It's very hard for me to think that I am doing things "right".

 

[Thalassa]

Also, Marm, I'm not reactive, but I sure as hell let problems and failures bog me down. It's very hard for me to get over this; I simply can't "let things go" sometimes, depending on what it is. And I have a mild case of Avoidant Personality Disorder, and I often misconstrue things to be negative about myself. It's very hard for me to think that I am doing things "right".

That could be an unhealthy 9. The 9w1 sx/so I mentioned was in an Si/Fi (ISTJ) loop for quite some time, and avoidance is a very 9-ish quality. Literally detaching from life and working on one's self, et al.

6 is the reactive type. 6s are reactive people.

 

[Hazashin]

That could be an unhealthy 9. The 9w1 sx/so I mentioned was in an Si/Fi (ISTJ) loop for quite some time, and avoidance is a very 9-ish quality. Literally detaching from life and working on one's self, et al.

6 is the reactive type. 6s are reactive people.

I don't see how reactiveness is a necessary trait. It would seem to me that the more mature 6s would learn to overcome this. Also, you don't think a 6 would avoid things if they were insecure about them? Especially a phobic one?

At the very least, I was a 6 as a child, as displayed by quoted material I have here of a psychological analysis that was taken of me when I was 7, 8, and 9 years old:

"Some results did indicate elavated symptoms of depression and anxiety."

"Clinically significant: hyperactivity, depression, withdrawal, adaptability; at-risk areas: aggression, atypicality, attention problems, social skills, leadership, study skills"

"Parent clinically significant: hyperactivity, attention problems, adaptability; at risk: aggression, anxiety, depression, social skills, leadership"

"At risk: attitude towards teachers, atypicality, focus of control, anxiety, depression, sense of inadequacy, interpersonal relationships, self-esteem
Clinically significant: social stress, self-reliance"

"In identifying the specific reason for the referral his teacher, Mrs. Pruden, stated that '[Hazashin] consistently refuses to start activities that require written expression and needs constant redirection to stay on task.'"

"She also indicated that [Hazashin] 'doesn't like to participate in physical activities; he whines and complains when expected to cooperate with a team at recess.'"

"[Hazashin] is described by his stepmother as smart, loving, funny, and creative. She noted that [Hazashin] can be very moody."

"The following behavior characteristics were marked by Mrs. [my last name] as being descriptive of [Hazashin]:
- argues
- cries
- complains/whines
- fearful/anxious
- stubborn
- negative
- shy or timid
- throws temper tantrums
- perfectionistic
- impulsive
- dependent
- friendly
- withdrawn
- restless
- has nightmares
- gives up easily
- overly active"

"[Hazashin] is described by his classroom teacher as a child who initiates conversations with others, participates in class dicussions, and has a good vocabulary. He has strong math concepts, enjoys science and hands-on activites, and also enjoys reading fantasy/fiction stories related to magic and special powers. He displays adequate fine-motor skills but he is less coordinated in gross motor areas. His teacher also indicated that [Hazashin] has limited social skills, is frequently inattentive, has a high activity level, and appears overly self-conscious."

"[Hazashin] was given the Sentence Completion Test to try and gain further information about his feelings regarding different areas of his life. The task consists of sentence stems, which the student is asked to read and complete. [Hazashin]'s responses reveal some anxiety (The future feels like I'm going to die when I'm 27); At bedtime I get scared sometimes) and some indications of social stress (People tease me a lot; Other people tease me). He seems to have the sense that he is not doing well as he would like to in school (In school I most of the time get bad grades; I hate getting bad grades)."

"[Hazashin] also indicated a preference for doing activities alone relative to his family configuration. For example, when asked to draw a picture of his family doing an activity together (Kinetic Family Drawing) he sketched a picture that indicated his stepmother, father, two sisters, and himself. In the picture, his family is watching a football game together. He sketched his stepmother and father on a couch together on one side of the room with his sisters nearby. On the opposite side of the room, [Hazashin] sketched himself sitting alone watching the football game. When asked later if this was typical of a family activity together, [Hazashin] indicated that he prefers to do things alone."

"[...] He indicated that he often has nightmares, worries a lot of the time, is bothered by thoughts about death, worries about something bad happening to him, worries about what is going to happen, and worries when he goes to bed at night. Related to signs of depression, [Hazashin] endorsed the following items as being true: "Life is getting worse and worse"; "No one understands me"; "I prefer to be alone most of the time"; "I used to be happier"; "I have too many problems"; and "Nothing goes my way.""

"On the Adaptive Scales, [Hazashin] rated himself in the "At-risk" range for Interpersonal Relations and Self-Esteem. He rated himself in the "Clinically Significant" range in the area of Self-Reliance. These scores indicated that [Hazashin] is having difficulty with interpersonal relations and maintaining positive self-esteem. Further, [Hazashin] feels that he unable to adequately rely on himself to resolve his problems and feelings of inadequacy."

"On the Clinical Scales, [Hazashin] rated himself in the "Clinically Significant" range in the area of Social Stress. This score indicates that [Hazashin] is reporting problems with maintaining age-appropriate interpersonal relations. He endorsed the following items as true: "Other people always find things wrong with me"; "Other children are happier than I am"; "I wish I were invited over to people's houses more"; "People say bad things to me"; "People act as if they don't hear me"; "I am lonely"; and "I am bothered by teasing from others"."

"Both Mr. [my last name] and [Hazashin]'s teacher rated him in the "at-risk" range for Aggression. Specifically, both raters indicated that [Hazashin] argues when denied his own way, breaks things when angered, is a "sore loser", is critical of others, argues with parents, and talks back to teachers. Both raters also had concerns regarding [Hazashin]'s atypical behaviors. Some of these behaviors include complaining about being unable to block out unwanted thoughts, repeating one activity over and over, picking at things like own hair, nails, or clothing, daydreaming, and having strange ideas. Further, both Mr. [my last name] and Mrs. Pruden have concerns regarding [Hazashin]'s level of depressive symptoms. Mr. [my last name] also has concerns relating to [Hazashin]'s level of anxiety symptoms. Some behaviors related to those areas include [Hazashin] saying, "I don't have any friends," crying easily, saying, "nobody likes me," being teased, and generally being easy to upset. Specifically related to anxiety, Mr. [my last name] reports that [Hazashin] sometimes worries, is afraid of dying, almost always worries about things that cannot be changed, and worries about what teachers and his parents will think. These cores indicated that [Hazashin] is at-risk for having clinically significant levels of anxiety and depression."

 

[Thalassa]

I don't see how reactiveness is a necessary trait. It would seem to me that the more mature 6s would learn to overcome this. Also, you don't think a 6 would avoid things if they were insecure about them? Especially a phobic one?

At the very least, I was a 6 as a child, as displayed by quoted material I have here of a psychological analysis that was taken of me when I was 7, 8, and 9 years old:

That's like asking why you have to have Ne to be an xNxP.

4, 6, 8 are the reactive enneagram types. They are called the reactive group.

6 and 8 are two of the most reactive, aggressive types...except 8 is offense, and 6 is defense.

Coping style is reactive for 6 in the thinking triad. Same for 4 in the heart triad and 8 in the body triad.

It sounds like you have social anxiety, and perhaps are an unhealthy 9 disintegrating at 6.

9s are also extraordinarily stubborn (like brick walls, they can be) and dependent. Withdrawal is another typical 9 trait.

You sound like a very depressed and anxious child, not necessarily like a 6. Some of this stuff almost makes you sound like a 4, actually.

 

[Thalassa]

In fact I'm wondering what the heck happened to you as a child after reading that. Were you abused? Bullied? It seems pretty extreme. Lots of people are 6's and I can assure you that's not necessarily what their childhoods are like; I certainly wasn't that negative or self-hating.

 

[BlackCat]

You actually DO sound like a sexual 9w1... I just went along with 6 for a while but I don't think I've ever met a sexual 9w1 so this is strange. You don't seem very reactive as people have pointed out, nor an analytical as a 6. Keep in mind that the sexual instinct seems to bring out the wing a bit more for some reason; and you seem to have some hardcore 1 going on. Keep in mind a lot of these supposed 6 traits could just be compliant traits you are experiencing with your wing (compliant types are 1, 2, 6); I think that a lot of 1s could possibly mistype as 6s from reading descriptions alone.

But another thing that's weird is that if you ARE a 9, then relating to 6 in general should be hard. What enneagram texts have you read? Are you only going by the enneagram institute? I had my doubts about 6 vs 9 myself (if I were a closet sp/sx counterphobic 6w5) but after reading Naranjo I was very much sold on 9w8. After reading Naranjo 6s feel like aliens, lol. Just can't relate the description to myself. The EI feels lacking after using the system for such a long time. 6s and 9s are extremely different under the surface, but on the surface phobic 6s and 9s can appear somewhat similar. So if there is confusion here then it's either misuse of the theory (on the surface traits) or just bad descriptions (both seem to apply).

EDIT: I also find it interesting that I'm a sexual 9, and I had confusion over 6. If you're a sexual 9, then there could be some correlation between Sx 9 and mistyping as 6. Perhaps the fact that sx and 9 seem to de correlate, 9s numb everything out and minimalize their wants and needs, while sx is basically the opposite of that. So there is a weird balance.

 

[BlackCat]

Misidentifying Sixes and Nines

These types are actually frequent mistyped. Sixes and Nines are both concerned with security and with maintaining some kind of status quo situation. They are both family-oriented, and both tend to take modest views of themselves. Their affect, however, is the easiest way to distinguish them.

In short, Nines like to remain easy-going and unflappable. Nines work steadily at their tasks, but show little sign of being upset by the day's ups and downs. Sixes, on the other hand, cannot easily disguise their feelings. They get more easily worked-up and rattled by mishaps. While Nines can remain silent within their own inner peace, Sixes need to vent with others periodically to discharge their fears and doubts. Sixes are more obviously nervous and defensive when they believe there are problems. Nines remain strangely bland in the face of problems, although beneath the pleasant surface of average Nines, there is stubborn resistance and an unwillingness to be upset or troubled by conflicts or problems. Sixes tend to be suspicious of unknown people and situations–they need to test people before they let them get close. Nines may be protected by the disengagement of their attention, but they tend to be trusting of others–almost to a fault.

Of course, under stress, when moving in their Direction of Disintegration, Nines will begin to act out some of the behaviors of average Sixes, and for this reason, some Nines will mistype themselves as Sixes. But such periods of overt anxiety generally do not last long. As soon as possible, Nines revert to their more easy going approach to things. Compare Sixes George Bush and Dustin Hoffman with Nines Gerald Ford and Jimmy Stewart.

(Source- www.enneagraminstitute.com)

 

[Viridian]

That's like asking why you have to have Ne to be an xNxP.

4, 6, 8 are the reactive enneagram types. They are called the reactive group.

6 and 8 are two of the most reactive, aggressive types...except 8 is offense, and 6 is defense.

Coping style is reactive for 6 in the thinking triad. Same for 4 in the heart triad and 8 in the body triad.

It sounds like you have social anxiety, and perhaps are an unhealthy 9 disintegrating at 6.

9s are also extraordinarily stubborn (like brick walls, they can be) and dependent. Withdrawal is another typical 9 trait.

You sound like a very depressed and anxious child, not necessarily like a 6. Some of this stuff almost makes you sound like a 4, actually.

I'm kind of curious, Marm - how do you distinguish reactiveness from counterphobia?

I ask this partly because - and I do not mean to imply anything negative - to me, in the past, you've sounded a lot like a pretty counterphobic Six (like Marjane Satrapi, who reminds me a lot of you), and I wonder if your image of 6s might have a personal slant (like how Elfboy used to assume other Fi users were as impervious to outside rejection as he was).

Also, are phobic Sixes always reactive? Like, is that something that defines them? And how exactly are we defining "reactive" here?

 

[Mal12345]

But another thing that's weird is that if you ARE a 9, then relating to 6 in general should be hard.

Yes, in general. But relating to the specifics of the 6 should be easy as a stress point.

 

[Rail Tracer]

You actually DO sound like a sexual 9w1... I just went along with 6 for a while but I don't think I've ever met a sexual 9w1 so this is strange. You don't seem very reactive as people have pointed out, nor an analytical as a 6. Keep in mind that the sexual instinct seems to bring out the wing a bit more for some reason; and you seem to have some hardcore 1 going on. Keep in mind a lot of these supposed 6 traits could just be compliant traits you are experiencing with your wing (compliant types are 1, 2, 6); I think that a lot of 1s could possibly mistype as 6s from reading descriptions alone.

But another thing that's weird is that if you ARE a 9, then relating to 6 in general should be hard. What enneagram texts have you read? Are you only going by the enneagram institute? I had my doubts about 6 vs 9 myself (if I were a closet sp/sx counterphobic 6w5) but after reading Naranjo I was very much sold on 9w8. After reading Naranjo 6s feel like aliens, lol. Just can't relate the description to myself. The EI feels lacking after using the system for such a long time. 6s and 9s are extremely different under the surface, but on the surface phobic 6s and 9s can appear somewhat similar. So if there is confusion here then it's either misuse of the theory (on the surface traits) or just bad descriptions (both seem to apply).

*cough*

Push and pull, 9 wants to minimize the conflict (I.E. some things are just not worth creating trouble,) sx wants to throw it all away. Similarly, SX is counter to the 6's stance.

Other than that, relating to 6 as a stress point is possible.

Also, Marm, I'm not reactive, but I sure as hell let problems and failures bog me down. It's very hard for me to get over this; I simply can't "let things go" sometimes, depending on what it is. And I have a mild case of Avoidant Personality Disorder, and I often misconstrue things to be negative about myself. It's very hard for me to think that I am doing things "right".

My motivations and fears are much more 6 than 9. Also, possibly the reason why I'm not so intense is because I am in somewhat of an Fi/Si loop, which correlates to the Avoidant Personality Disorder.

Now THIS is what is making me think just that. If [MENTION=13609]Hazashin[/MENTION] really does think so, then it is possible that he is just stressed, and the reason why he identifies with 6 so much is because he is stressed.

 

[Thalassa]

I'm kind of curious, Marm - how do you distinguish reactiveness from counterphobia?

I ask this partly because - and I do not mean to imply anything negative - to me, in the past, you've sounded a lot like a pretty counterphobic Six (like Marjane Satrapi, who reminds me a lot of you), and I wonder if your image of 6s might have a personal slant (like how Elfboy used to assume other Fi users were as impervious to outside rejection as he was).

Also, are phobic Sixes always reactive? Like, is that something that defines them? And how exactly are we defining "reactive" here?

I am quoting actual/paraphrasing sources about enneagram, it's not my "slant."

 

[Thalassa]

*cough*

Push and pull, 9 wants to minimize the conflict (I.E. some things are just not worth creating trouble,) sx wants to throw it all away. Similarly, SX is counter to the 6's stance.

Yes, after knowing a sexual 9w1 fairly well, I can tell you for certain that they push-pull. They are strangely disconnected and non-confrontational, but then if feel strongly about something may want to stir things up, and they have that need for intimacy and some kind of intense response from other people, before disappearing back into the shadows of their psyche to chill back out and occasionally throw out fuzzy fishing lures and one liners to maintain the intimacy they desperately need, despite their detachment.





Now THIS is what is making me think just that. If [MENTION=13609]Hazashin[/MENTION] really does think so, then it is possible that he is just stressed, and the reason why he identifies with 6 so much is because he is stressed.[/QUOTE]