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ENTP or ENFP?

Lord Guess

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ENTP
Hey guys! This has been bugging me for... well, about 2 hours now :D. For a while now, and after doing god knows how many tests, I found that I wasn't able to tell whether or not I was an ENTJ or an ENTP, since both are pretty good, but not quite exact descriptions of my own personal style. Recently, I've pretty much figured out my whole P/J divide: I prefer to observe all possibilities whenever I can afford to, but when push comes to shove and the situation calls for it, I'd tend to find making quick decisions pretty easy. Since I preferred the one style, it seemed fairly obvious that I was Perceiving more than Judging, so that cleared that little question up quite nicely ;).

Now, just on a whim earlier, I decided to check out some ENFP descriptions, which, surprisingly sounded almost exactly like me, down to the letter: the only difference is that I tend to like debates, seeing them as an opportunity to test my own beliefs and principles (something which is typically ENTP), and I'm not overly concerned with being in line with traditional morality (good vs evil); however, I subscribe to my own, shall we say, alternative moral principles quite closely. I also prefer to experience the world emotionally rather than fully logically, though I would much rather use rational judgment to make decisions and make sense of the world. On top of that, I have that trademark ENFP flair for the dramatic, a passionate love of life, strangely magnetic personality, and an uncanny ability to read and understand people a lot better than most of them realize from spending short amounts of time with them. However, this doesn't translate into actually caring much about people; I really like using this talent for my own benefit, which doesn't sound very ENFP at all; however, it is still in line with my own moral principles, just not with traditional ones. However, this doesn't mean that I don't like people or take an interest in anyone; it just means that I don't get overly attached to them in the long run. Also, I tend to lean towards cynicism in my assessment of people, but I always try remain optimistic, but grounded in reality whenever making a decision about the future; in other words, I'm idealistic, but not naive.

I'm rambling a bit, but basically, everything I've read about ENFPs sounds exactly like me, minus the whole altruistic, "goodwill towards all" schtick; I still think that this is an overly narrow way of perceiving it, but I wanted to hear some more opinions. I am always driven by a search for higher meaning, but I've heard that this is also common in ENTPs as well. I also fit quite well as an ENTP, but the ENTP traits don't resonate as deeply as the ENFP ones do. What do you guys think?
 

Silveresque

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I think relying on descriptions alone can easily lead to mistypings, as most descriptions use vague generalizations. Have you heard of cognitive functions? If you haven't, you can read about them here.

ENTP has these functions: Ne, Ti, Fe, Si
ENFP has these functions: Ne, Fi, Te, Si

It seems the main difference between the two is Fi versus Ti. Fi is generally used to judge value and worth, especially in moral decisions, while Ti is generally used to analyze systems and principals. However, based on my experience, either function can be used like the other, so the two can be difficult to distinguish. To make a long explanation short, the most fundamental difference between the two functions is that Fi uses subjective/personal analysis, while Ti uses objective/impersonal analysis. Both form subjective values/principles from their analysis, which is why they can appear identical, especially when analyzing situations where emotion is not involved.

In other words, if you prefer to analyze subjectively, taking your own feelings into account, then you're probably an ENFP. But if you prefer to detach in order to analyze objectively, then you're probably an ENTP.
 

Lord Guess

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ENTP
That's the thing, though; I have absolutely no idea if I'm analyzing things objectively or subjectively. I like to think I am being objective, but I don't fully trust my own answers on personality tests, since I was testing as ENTJ for a while, when I'm definitely ENxP. I have a feeling that this is the same type of situation, but I do know that I tend to consider rationality and logical decisions before right and wrong. However, it's hard to know just how much of what you do is detached rationality, and how much is subjectively based on personal feelings; most people tend to include personal feelings to some degree whenever they make decisions.

I did actually try a cognitive function test; it said I was likely ENTP, but like I said before, I don't fully trust my own answers, since I've mistyped as ENTJ, ESTJ, and ESTP before. I've never gotten ENFP, but that could be because I've been ignoring the impact that my own personal feelings have on my decisions. The main reason I'd say I might not be ENFP is because I'm not as open and touchy-feely as the type is supposed to be; it usually takes a lot to reveal anything about myself to people. Plus, being traditionally moral isn't as important to me as being right, though like I said before, I have my own moral principles that operate separately from traditional ones, which are just as important to me as being right.
 

Qlip

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That's the thing, though; I have absolutely no idea if I'm analyzing things objectively or subjectively. I like to think I am being objective, but I don't fully trust my own answers on personality tests, since I was testing as ENTJ for a while, when I'm definitely ENxP. I have a feeling that this is the same type of situation, but I do know that I tend to consider rationality and logical decisions before right and wrong. However, it's hard to know just how much of what you do is detached rationality, and how much is subjectively based on personal feelings; most people tend to include personal feelings to some degree whenever they make decisions.

I did actually try a cognitive function test; it said I was likely ENTP, but like I said before, I don't fully trust my own answers, since I've mistyped as ENTJ, ESTJ, and ESTP before. I've never gotten ENFP, but that could be because I've been ignoring the impact that my own personal feelings have on my decisions. The main reason I'd say I might not be ENFP is because I'm not as open and touchy-feely as the type is supposed to be; it usually takes a lot to reveal anything about myself to people. Plus, being traditionally moral isn't as important to me as being right, though like I said before, I have my own moral principles that operate separately from traditional ones, which are just as important to me as being right.

I usually stay out of typing threads, because I am bad at it. This sounds like Fi to me.
 

Qlip

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Interesting. Please elaborate.

Well, it depends entirely on what you mean by 'being right' as in you think it's more important to 'be right'. Can you elaborate on that? Perhaps give an example of where you depart from traditional morals.
 

Lord Guess

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Being right usually means from a logical/ rational standpoint, though I might forgo this if the logical/rational thing isn't as important in the situation. The way I depart from traditional morals is more or less that good and evil have less to do with my decisions and thoughts than other principles (which would take a little while to explain here), however, these principles, 99% of the time, advocate taking the rational path. If they don't, however, I'd decide based on how much of a consequence there would be in ignoring the rational decision, and how much against my principles the rational decision would be.
 

Qlip

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Being right usually means from a logical/ rational standpoint, though I might forgo this if the logical/rational thing isn't as important in the situation. The way I depart from traditional morals is more or less that good and evil have less to do with my decisions and thoughts than other principles (which would take a little while to explain here), however, these principles, 99% of the time, advocate taking the rational path. If they don't, however, I'd decide based on how much of a consequence there would be in ignoring the rational decision, and how much against my principles the rational decision would be.

Actually, I think it would be illustrative to hear what your 'other principals' are. I'm still trying to assess if your morality is Fi, or Ti-Fe. FYI, it's my understanding that ENFP men can take a different direction than the ENFP description, because ENFP expression is suspect in a male in our society.
 

Lord Guess

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Fair enough. Well, first of all, just to get it out of the way, I define good and evil like this: "good" is an action which results in a greater median happiness (unfortunately, happiness isn't quantifiable :( ), or prevents a greater median loss of happiness, while evil is an action which results in greater median suffering, or prevents a median gain in happiness. However (and this is why I'm not entirely sure I'm ENFP), my own personal moral code is not outwardly focused on the benefit of everyone in the group, but is inherently individualistic, or rather, it values individual achievement, personal goals, higher principles (of which rationality is one, though not the highest) and personal drive and force of will above all. That doesn't mean that acting in the benefit of the group does not fall in line with my principles, it's just that placing the needs of the group as a whole is only acting in line with the principle if it is being done in the service of a higher goal. What this higher goal may be can be a whole list of things; to use a traditionally moral example, personal attachment rather than a general altruism, or, to go a darker route, revenge, or for a neutral way of looking at it, survival, or also what I call the law of drama (also quite complicated; I might explain it somewhere else, as this is a recent principle I have come up with, and I'd rather get it down properly before I put it in writing). Survival, the law of drama, and personal will, drive and charisma (these all come under the law of drama, which, as I said, is still somewhat in a fledgling stage) are what I value above all, not a simple good/evil dichotomy, which I believe is both limiting and a distortion of what humans truly value and strive for in a moral sense.

I do think I might be ENFP simply because my principles are not overly concerned with rationality and objective criteria, but with an emotional experience of the world; however, in deciding these principles for myself, I have taken a rational, logical approach toward categorizing an emotional experience. Also, in everyday life, when making decisions, I tend to go for what the rational, logical decision would be; however, this is simply because an emotional response is usually inappropriate to the situation, and interferes with the principle of survival, which is concerned with the greatest benefit for the individual. In short, I'm unsure of where I would place, since rationality is included in my principles as one of the highest values, and hence makes it difficult to understand if I'm being rational because I'm detaching myself, or because it's a personal feeling and value which I adhere to.

(Whew! See, I told you it'd be long :alttongue:)
 

Qlip

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Yeah, could be ENTP Okay, let's take a different tact on this. I hear, and have noticed that ENTPs pride themselves at being really good at at least one thing. As an ENFP, mastry isn't my game, I'm just kinda good a whole lot of things. Where do you lie in that spectrum?
 

amerellis

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I doubt this is the same as your original type, but for type of origin I'm getting ISTP.
You could send me a voice recording or something if you were interested in knowing what I would consider your original type to be.
 

Lord Guess

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[MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] I'm very good at pretty much everything I take an interest in; I tend to master, or become really good at pretty much anything I want to. How much pride I take in my skill in an area depends on a) how much of an interest I take in it and b) how common the skill really is, though I'd rather be good at something than not.
[MENTION=14361]amerellis[/MENTION] ISTP? No, I'm definitely EN, that's for sure. How did you come up with that?
[MENTION=14216]RevlisZero[/MENTION] I checked the thread: it was pretty useful, though it seems like everyone came to the same conclusion I did; Fi and Ti are both used in very similar ways, and it's difficult to tell the difference. I liked the descriptions by Dr. J. H. van der Hoop; I'd say I think more like a Ti, but my emotional world is more Fi. I tend to get really philosophical, distrust emotional judgement over logic, and try to disregard emotions when making decisions, like a Ti user, but the description of an Fe user's emotional world described me a lot better in general, which is why I think it could actually be the function I'm using. The way I figure it, a person can, over time, change the way they think, but emotional patterns are much harder to control, and so are likely to be more honest. Also, I tend to be able to see how things make sense quite quickly, and so, a lot of my thoughts are directed toward giving things value; however, when something doesn't make sense, I immediately have to figure it out.
 

amerellis

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[MENTION=14298]Lord Guess[/MENTION] I have unique theory about MBTI types, that everyone has three which may potentially be different: the one which their original type, their type of origin, and the type they test as. Check out my 3 Different Kinds of MBTI Types? thread to learn more.
 

Zither Keys

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Nothing in this world is black and white. Except the black text on a white page of a book.
 

Lord Guess

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Nothing in this world is black and white. Except the black text on a white page of a book.
[MENTION=14426]Zither Keys[/MENTION] What do you mean by that?
[MENTION=14361]amerellis[/MENTION]: I read through the thread, though I'm still confused as to both how you came to the conclusion, and what exactly it means... if you could explain it a bit, that'd be great.
 

Zither Keys

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What do you mean by that?

I'm taking (US) Law right now and my professor stated that the only thing that is black and white (an expression to mean "clear-cut") in Law is the pages of the Law book itself. I said that in the context that the OP doesn't have to be one or the other, he could be somewhere in between (gray area). And there's nothing wrong with that.
 

Lord Guess

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Oh, I see what you mean: normally, I'd agree, but in this case, it'd have to be one or the other. I have the characteristics of both, but since MBTI has to do more with what functions are being used in the thought process and in decision making, I would naturally have to be using one or the other, though Fi and Ti can manifest themselves in a similar way which makes it hard to tell the difference.
 

Zither Keys

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I've taken several MBTI tests to confirm that I really was an INTJ, and one of them stated that I was 50% Sensing and 50% Intuitive. Now on all the other ones, it was pretty clear that I was more on the Intuitive side. Maybe this was a less reliable test :/
 

Lord Guess

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Maybe: it might also just have to do with the way they asked the questions. The tests aren't completely reliable, though, since they depend on you answering the questions about yourself completely, 100% truthfully, which might not happen if you're expecting a specific result, which can subconsciously affect your answers, or if you're a little bit clouded in your self-judgement (which applies to pretty much everyone). For example, I used to test as ENTJ on most of the tests, since when it's for an important reason, I like to make sure I have a plan in place, and I like to keep things on schedule. However, the style I prefer to use is definitely P, not J: once I realized that, I started testing as a high P. That's why I don't trust my test results, which usually come out as ENTP, because I don't know whether or not I'm using Fi or Ti to make decisions. Plus, I've heard that ENFP men tend to seem like ENTPs because T tends to be valued in men more than F, and so, they become conditioned into acting like that.
 
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