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Okay, I'm seriously reconsidering ESTJ

Asterion

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actually, 9w8 would make a lot of sense. I'll have to look into that more

No. You like conflict too much to be a 9. I've read some things about you in this thread, and there's no way that any of it fits 9. 3 or 8 - yes, but not 9.
 

Elfboy

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No. You like conflict too much to be a 9. I've read some things about you in this thread, and there's no way that any of it fits 9. 3 or 8 - yes, but not 9.

9w8s like occasional conflict
 

Asterion

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9w8s like occasional conflict

None of the conflict that matters, sure, they might get angry and semi-politely tell someone to stick it up their ass, but that doesn't seem like the way you would go about it, right?
 

Mal12345

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No. You like conflict too much to be a 9. I've read some things about you in this thread, and there's no way that any of it fits 9. 3 or 8 - yes, but not 9.

The average 9w8 can strike out suddenly without warning even to themselves. The lower down the spectrum of health, the more their violent tendencies come out. But the self-image of the 9w8 is not that of a violent person at all.

I'm particularly recalling the time he hit this girl out of the blue after she flirted with him.
 

Mal12345

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Riso said something about the 9w8 compartmentalizing emotions. That can be a healthy trait. For example, it's better to leave one's work problems at work, and not to bring one's home problems to work. So when they're at work, those home problems become walled off for the moment. But at the average to unhealthy levels, this healthy "wall" develops into repression, and then begins to develop more and more cracks letting out the repressed anger at unexpected times. Sometimes the 9w8 will just do a slow burn without being aware of what's happening inside them, and then suddenly just let loose like a dam bursting or a volcano exploding.
 

Elfboy

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The average 9w8 can strike out suddenly without warning even to themselves. The lower down the spectrum of health, the more their violent tendencies come out. But the self-image of the 9w8 is not that of a violent person at all.

I'm particularly recalling the time he hit this girl out of the blue after she flirted with him.

this is not me. my aggressive tendencies are more premeditated and non reactive. they can seem sudden to outside observers, but they're usually much more calculated and tactical. most of the time I view conflict as a game, but this was learned after being bullied up until junior high, having to be socially self reliant and developing Te long before nature intended. one of my friends who knows about MBTI jokes that I went from INFP to ENTJ, another one jokes that went from Christopher Robin to Gordon Gekko (ironically, also INFP and ENTJ)
 

Mal12345

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this is not me. my aggressive tendencies are more premeditated and non reactive. they can seem sudden to outside observers, but they're usually much more calculated and tactical. most of the time I view conflict as a game, but this was learned after being bullied up until junior high, having to be socially self reliant and developing Te long before nature intended. one of my friends who knows about MBTI jokes that I went from INFP to ENTJ, another one jokes that went from Christopher Robin to Gordon Gekko (ironically, also INFP and ENTJ)

I know, you told us that before. It just makes me return to the previous 6w5 call I made. At least you don't seem at all like the 'ENFP' in your sig.
 

Elfboy

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I know, you told us that before. It just makes me return to the previous 6w5 call I made. At least you don't seem at all like the 'ENFP' in your sig.

6 aggression is more reactive and personal. this has never been the case for me
 

Mal12345

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6 aggression is more reactive and personal. this has never been the case for me

Hitting that girl was reactive. But if Sixes have gone to level 6 (which also comes across as a type 8), they attempt to "pull themselves together and control their fear through bold, forceful actions." The term "bold" strongly implies that they are no longer reactionary Sixes.

Since you admit you are semi-sociopathic, that places you below the average levels of health, in a somewhat more deteriorated state. But as a type 6 you will tend to shift levels quite frequently, which (in an ad hoc way) explains why you so frequently want to change your MBTI type.

I have been given no good reason to believe you are any other type. I give you the benefit of the doubt at times (as I did above), but your own rebuttals force me to fall back on the 6w5 call. There simply is no type that fits your self-description as well.

I have seen that your rebuttals against my Six call consist of stereotypes concerning a very complex type, probably the most complex type on the Enneagram. Not only are there phobics and counterphobics, but they are moody and changeable like the weather. And in a way, your very indecisiveness about your type indicates something about your true type.

Riso indicates that even if the 6, at an early stage in his life, is a phobic type, when he reaches level 6 he will be counterphobic no matter what he was before.
 

Mal12345

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This brings up a related side-issue. Riso relates MBTI types to Enneagram types in an obvious attempt to reduce the former to the latter. But in reality, as a Six you express whatever MBTI type relates to your level of deterioration. An INFP, at one time a shy and rather unprepossessing individual, who suddenly, in his late teens, does an about face and boldly challenges the world around him, is no longer an INFP by any description.
 

Hive

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Only type 3, 6 and 9 go through this much trouble trying to determine their type. It's fairly evident you are not a 9. I haven't seen mal's reasoning for you being a 6w5, but my guess is 3w4.
 

Mal12345

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Only type 3, 6 and 9 go through this much trouble trying to determine their type.

At least we agree on this. I'll fill you in briefly on the sum of my reasoning.

In Elf's comments I've seen too much evidence of bouncing up and down levels for him to be anything but a Six. When he originally replied that he was more independent than some wishy-washy loyalist Six, I pointed out to him that Riso describes the 6w5 as the fiercely independent wing of the type Six. I have given similar rebuttals to everything Elf had to say about my explanations.

In the long run, my call boils down to Elf's own autobiography back at the beginning of the same thread. Sometimes he seems like a Three, but that is simply Six deterioration to Three at level six ("arrogance and high-handedness.")

The unhealthy 3w4 wavers between "ego-inflation" and "self-doubt." Not doubt about type, the mind-set of the 3w4 at level six experiences peaks and valleys consisting of over-confident self-aggrandizing compensation and moments of severe self-doubt.
 

Elfboy

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At least we agree on this. I'll fill you in briefly on the sum of my reasoning.

In Elf's comments I've seen too much evidence of bouncing up and down levels for him to be anything but a Six. When he originally replied that he was more independent than some wishy-washy loyalist Six, I pointed out to him that Riso describes the 6w5 as the fiercely independent wing of the type Six. I have given similar rebuttals to everything Elf had to say about my explanations.

In the long run, my call boils down to Elf's own autobiography back at the beginning of the same thread. Sometimes he seems like a Three, but that is simply Six deterioration to Three at level six ("arrogance and high-handedness.")

The unhealthy 3w4 wavers between "ego-inflation" and "self-doubt." Not doubt about type, the mind-set of the 3w4 at level six experiences peaks and valleys consisting of over-confident self-aggrandizing compensation and moments of severe self-doubt.

I'm a cold, icy bitch under stress. "If you value your life, then I must politely ask you to leave" I don't know what type this would relate to though (stress 5 or 1 perhaps?)
 

Hazashin

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you give the impression of being more compliant like an Fe user.

Damnit, you're right! This is why I can't tell it is Fi or Fe! T_T I just relate to both well. The thing is, I'm much more compliant then when I was a kid. This might come as a shock to you, but, as a kid, I was very TJ-ish at times (actually, even xSTJ-ish). It may not seem like it now, but I was. What Te is visible now comes out when I'm trying to prove my point and/or that I'm right. I was worse when I was a kid though. Like, I was all about "this is right and this is wrong!" I'd flip out if people didn't play by the rules or did things "right." I was a stickler for the rules. Here, let me show you some psychological test results/result comments from when I was 7/8 years old:

- "Some results did indicate elavated symptoms of depression and anxiety."

- "Clinically significant: hyperactivity, depression, withdrawal, adaptability; at risk areas: aggression, atypicality, attention problems, social skills, leadership, study skills"

(I am DEFINITELY no longer aggressive anymore. Quite the opposite, actually...)

- "Parent - clincally significant: hyperactivity, attention problems, adaptability; at risk: aggression, anxiety, depression, social skills, leadership"

- "At risk: attitude towards teachers, atypicality, focus of control, anxiety, depression, sense of inadequacy, interpersonal relationships, self-esteem
Clinically significant: social stress, self-reliance"

- "In identifying the specific reason for the referral his teacher, Mrs. Pruden, stated that 'Taylor consistently refues to start activities that require written expression and needs constant redirection to stay on task.'"

- "She also indicated that Taylor 'doesn't like to participate in physical activities; he whines and complains when expected to cooperate with a team at recess.'"

(That doesn't seem like Fe to me...)

- "Taylor is described by his stepmother as smart, loving, funny, and creative. She noted that Taylor can be very moody."

(I don't see how she thought I was creative. Well, I might have been, but I'm definitely not now.)

- "The following behavior characteristics were marked by Mrs. [my last name] as being descriptive of Taylor:

- argues
- cries
- complains/whines
- fearful/anxious
- stubborn
- negative
- shy or timid
- temper tantrums
- perfectionistic (this is a Te trait I still possess)
- impulsive (I'm not like that at all anymore.)
- dependent
- friendly
- withdrawn
- restless
- has nightmares
- gives up easily
- overly active"

- "Taylor is described by his classroom teacher as a child who initiates conversations with others (soo not true anymore), participates in class dicussions, and has a good vocabulary. He has strong math concepts (not so much anymore), enjoys science and hands-on activites and also enjoys reading fantasy/fiction stories related to magic and special powers (I hardly read fiction at all anymore). He displays adequate fine-motor skills but he is less coordinated in gross motor areas. His teacher also indicated that Taylor has limited social skills, is frequently inattentive, has a high activity level, and appears overly self-conscious."

As you can see, I was not FP-looking like I look like now, but I still possess over half of those traits. I can't deny that I'm depressive, anxious, withdrawing, unadaptable, dependent, self-conscious, frustrated with written expression, socially inept, perfectionistic, and moody. Basically, the only difference now is that I'm WAY more aware of other people's feelings and I try not to hurt them. Plus, I'm not much for rules now (I'm actually a strong libertarian).

I now realize that they are "useful but changeable mechanisms, and, ideally, they can maintain the general social order and protect human rights. I do not see them (or believe they should, rather) as 'absolute 'that must be obeyed without question." "I am able to accept that everyone has differing views and that people are separate entities from society and don't hold grudges against those who hold views I don't agree with. I understand that people's own perspectives may take precedence over society, and rules are of relative importance."

(I said this in my thread.)

And, oh, did I mention I'm a friends-first guy?
 

Mal12345

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I'm a cold, icy bitch under stress. "If you value your life, then I must politely ask you to leave" I don't know what type this would relate to though (stress 5 or 1 perhaps?)

Probably the Three would be the most depersonalized.
 

InvisibleJim

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The difference between ESTJ and ENFP is considerable. You might as well be a split personality.

It's not as big as you think.

An NFP ego has an STJ id and vice-versa.

When you live with a type you get to know these things and socionics prescribes the same phenomenon.

Just as an NTP ego has an SFJ id.
 

Mal12345

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It's not as big as you think.

An NFP ego has an STJ id and vice-versa.

When you live with a type you get to know these things and socionics prescribes the same phenomenon.

Just as an NTP ego has an SFJ id.

The difference between the id and ego is considerable.
 

InvisibleJim

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The difference between the id and ego is considerable.

True and the interaction is also not to be ignored.

As I said, Hashasin is an ISFP and he was feeling the effects of developing id making him appear like a 'very very' J as a child.

Observe the 'totally different person/totally foreign country' perspective on the experience.
 

Mal12345

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True and the interaction is also not to be ignored.

As I said, Hashasin is an ISFP and he was feeling the effects of developing id making him appear like a 'very very' J as a child.

Observe the 'totally different person/totally foreign country' perspective on the experience.

Type changes as we advance into maturity. I see some ADHD characteristics in his description. I would say his interest in fantasy as a child is an intuitive trait, except someone will inevitably come along and say that its "really tertiary" or "inferior" or whatever. Typology itself impinges upon the realm of fantasy.

I don't see any reason for some of it being "id" rather than "super-ego."
 

InvisibleJim

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Type changes as we advance into maturity. I see some ADHD characteristics in his description. I would say his interest in fantasy as a child is an intuitive trait, except someone will inevitably come along and say that its "really tertiary" or "inferior" or whatever. Typology itself impinges upon the realm of fantasy.

I don't see any reason for some of it being "id" rather than "super-ego."

Super-ego would be complimentary to the ego, thus an ENFP has Ne-Fi in the ego and Se-Ti in the super-ego. Although I'm quite saucy because I'm referencing socionics which gives these elements slightly left of center definitions compared to Freud.
 
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