User Tag List

123 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 21

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,989

    Default My Step-daughter: An Interesting Problem for Typology

    Ok, I agree up front that my 18-year-old step-daughter is more than just "an interesting problem" for the MBTI. She's also my step-daughter since 2006. She took the MBTI in high school and scored ISFP. But this is dead wrong because she's one of the most extroverted people I've ever known. ESFP fits her much better.

    Since I've arrived onto this forum I've learned more about tertiaries and function analysis than I ever dreamed possible. I've been forced to look into Jung's work on psychological types again. So now, when I consider my step-daughter's type, I see that the Fi in ESFP is entirely lacking (undeveloped) with her. And if I had to consider her cognitive type properly, I would have to say it's more like SeFe, for which there is no single MBTI description. In Jungian terms, her main cognitive functions are "undifferentiated," and she has no secondary or "helper" function.

    At least there is no internal conflict in being SeFe that I've seen. Perhaps it would be better if there was. But it does indicate some more or less serious problems, ADHD and Bipolar disorder for starters, perhaps because there is no Fi to slow her down, to cause her to stop and ponder her next move before making it, leading to extreme impulsiveness when she's not on her meds.

    I don't know if there's any kind of therapeutic care possible here beyond chemical, or if it's possible to develop the Fi that should usually go with being an ESFP.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #2
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    My son is 22 and an ESFP. His whole teen years gave the appearance of Se / Fe, in that his focus was out, out towards experiences and people, and wanting to be in the IN group. Fi as aux was pretty insecure.

    I would say his Fi at that age exhibited more as a compassion for others, people who were on the fringes and towards small animals, anything or anyone at a disadvantage. And, as a stubbornness to do anything that was outside of what he "wanted" to do or thought was right. For example, in his early teens, he refused to regularly wash his hair or wear nice outfits, as he believed no one should judge other people based on how they look. So he made his outer appearance match that internal value as a challenge to the world.

    If you can describe her behaviour more, I could offer some more specific thoughts on this. How to "develop Fi" is too vague.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #3
    i love skylights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 so/sx
    Socionics
    EII Ne
    Posts
    7,835

    Default

    three possibilities in the MBTI model:

    1. she's ESTP, and her Ti is really hidden
    2. she's ESFP, and her Fi looks like Fe
    3. she's ESFJ, and her Si looks like Se

    my best guess, given that you're Ti dom, given my own experience of Fi aux, and having known a few ESFPs pretty well, is #2.

    personally, i think my own Fi often presents as Fe IRL due to filtering through Ne and/or support from Te and Si. it's often outward-directed, efficiency-tailored, and in line with the environment. the thing is, when you're motivated by the external environment first, and then Fi, it's going to look more like Fe because you're more willing to adapt to that external environment to get the stimulation you prefer best. it's not going to be the purer Fi of a dominant because it's skewed by the primary goal of attaining external stimuli.

    But it does indicate some more or less serious problems, ADHD and Bipolar disorder for starters, perhaps because there is no Fi to slow her down, to cause her to stop and ponder her next move before making it, leading to extreme impulsiveness when she's not on her meds.
    i don't know that Fi necessarily always does these things, especially not with an ESFP. a good friend of mine is ESFP, and she is really a go-with-the-flow person. she doesn't spend much time pondering her next activity or her eventual endgoal, she just lives and sees what comes up. Fi directs her in terms of how she should treat people (she is very, very warm and friendly, and very egalitarian), but it's more of a responsive thing - it acts secondary to her Se drive to interact with the world. for ExFPs, Fi is our "guide" function, after all - it gently bumps us to redirect as we pursue Ne and Se. it also provides my friend with a basic set of values, including freedom and happiness, which she pursues to the utmost. if she seems pure Se to you, i would go with ESFP - especially because, no offense, but as a Ti-dom yourself you may be having trouble recognizing and understanding auxiliary Fi, which often is rather quiet, especially IRL.

    i would be surprised to hear what you said in the quote above about someone with Fe, though. ADHD and bipolar - though i'm sure they can occur in someone with dom/aux Fe, seem to be much more prevalent in Ps than Js. Fe is not a "fast" or unrestrained thing - it is very conscientious, and, being paired with Ti, it rests on a foundation of logical calculation - that people will behave in a certain way given certain parameters.

    as peacebaby said, i would also be curious to hear examples of her lack of Fi. i am wondering if it's just not manifesting in the way that you are expecting. many definitions of Fi seem skewed to NFP to me.

    if you want to try to help cultivate Fi... something that comes to mind is animal shelters, working at camps for disadvantaged kids, etc.... though that may be difficult if she's very medicated right now. what is she interested in?

    it might just be being a late teenager, too, in part. i know a lot of wild and crazy people of that age, especially ExFPs. pushing boundaries and discovering freedoms and whatnot. what i have seen in my ExFP friends is that as they progress through college, they tend to get more chill. i was essentially the same way... partied like crazy my sophomore year but really calmed down junior year.

  4. #4
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    953 sp/so
    Posts
    5,708

    Default

    Both PB and skylights have given very apt replies. I would like to add the possibility of the original ISFP type back into the discussion.

    My ISFP brother was/is a wannabe rock star. He loved rock music and would practice it and has been in several bands that have performed publicly and released CDs. But he really is *I*SFP, not E. His 40th b-day present was a traveling petting zoo appearing in his front yard, and for him that was the best present ever. He'll seem Fe, and he'll seem extroverted, but that's because it's where his passion takes him. His attitude is really focused inward, towards his music, but because music is "very Se" and a significant aspect is performance, it seems like it's a focus on other people and making a good impression and so on.

    Look for your daughter's focus, what really drives her internally, and if she's Fi, that's where you'll see it. It won't be so obviously visible on the outside, and is easily overpowered (in terms of outside observation) even by an auxiliary Se.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    TiNe
    Enneagram
    5
    Socionics
    LII
    Posts
    59

    Default

    She could always be an INFP stuck into a Fe-Se loop, couldn't she ? As for the I/E dichotomy, it may not be obivous yet because of peer pressure or her Fe or anything like this.

    Many people also seem to be what they aren't depending on the situation, or they try to compensate some problems and difficulties by repressing their functions or faking them. I have a friend who is pretty good at pretending to be almost Se dominant while she isn't. And my best friend who is bipolar scored as ISFP as well while seeming very extrovert, it apparently mostly comes from the general distress and imaturity.

    It's rather difficult to really know one's type to be honest.
    Feel no shame for what you are...

    INTP
    5w4 or 5w6 sp/so

  6. #6
    ReflecTcelfeR
    Guest

    Default

    Should the outside world be able to see introverted functions in general? Through actions yes, but I would think beyond that an introverted function is never exposed to the outside world, otherwise it would become extroverted. I'm saying this because perhaps this is why you see extroverted feeling instead of introverted. Perhaps it is her introverted feeling expressed outwards transforming it into Fe.

  7. #7
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SLI None
    Posts
    9,635

    Default

    auxilary Fi is harder to spot in ESFPs than it is with ENFPs. unlike Ne/Fi which go together like peanut butter and jelly, Fi and Se are don't have a lot of common ground. Se is the most extroverted of all the functions while Fi is deep and contemplative (tons of ISFPs are mistyped as Ns because Fi looks a lot like intuition). I think a lot of ESFPs, especially if they don't know about MBTI, are confused by Fi or think something like "oh, that's just my emo side" or "why am I such a drama queen sometimes?"

    for example (I am aware that this example is stereotypical and surface level, but this is deliberate for hyperbolic effect)
    imagine you are the stereotypical teenage ESFP who's just starting to grow into Fi. you're light hearted, fun, spontaneous, in the moment and carefree. now imagine all of a sudden getting a gut wrenching, vindictive fireball in your stomach when you see a something that "just isn't right" and you feel compelled to do something about it at all costs. then, on another occasion, for seemingly no reason at all you break down into tears because of the way a beautiful piece of music moved you. perhaps on a third occasion you find your self getting more and more intimate with your friends and start to wonder if you're gay or if any of this is normal. as a light hearted, surface dwelling Se dom, your first response is probably going to be somewhere along the lines of "WTF is happening to me?". if one has had a particularly shallow childhood, experiencing Fi for the first time might even be a little scary.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  8. #8
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Both PB and skylights have given very apt replies. I would like to add the possibility of the original ISFP type back into the discussion.
    Yes, I agree ISFP is not off the table at this point ... the ISFP's I know seem more outgoing compared to many other introverted types with that Se pushing them out to experience the world.

    Would love to hear more about this young lady to render a more informed opinion.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    TiNe
    Enneagram
    5
    Socionics
    LII
    Posts
    59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ReflecTcelfeR View Post
    Should the outside world be able to see introverted functions in general? Through actions yes, but I would think beyond that an introverted function is never exposed to the outside world, otherwise it would become extroverted. I'm saying this because perhaps this is why you see extroverted feeling instead of introverted. Perhaps it is her introverted feeling expressed outwards transforming it into Fe.
    The way I understand it, introverted functions follow a path that goes from your inner world to the outside world, it's about the way you process information, create, think and are stimulated but it can be expressed to the outside world.




    For example, extraverted feelings finds its values outside (other people, conventions) while introverted feelings finds its values inside (personal morality, feeling of what is "right and wrong") but both are present inside and outisde in their expression (which is probably how we can have strong common values and conventions).

    It would be like introverted cake making and extraverted cake making which aim at being shared in the end.
    Let's say you're a child wanting to bake a cake for your friends and take the introverted approach, you will bake it with your own ingredients and oven and tools and recipe which you will find inside your house.
    If you are more comfortable with the extraverted approach, you will borrow a recipe, ingredients, an oven and and tools from someone else and bake it their house.

    In both cases, the cake will be baked and served and shared but it will be a different cake since it has been made differently.

    But when you think about it, since you're a child, you'd better use both the intoverted approach and the extraverted approach, which means you could either bake it in your own house with your own oven but use the recipe and tools of someone else or bake it in another place, using someone else's oven but your own recipe and tools.

    (I should stop there before I start talking about intoverted recipes and extroverted ovens I guess).

    Which is basically what we are constantly doing since you use both extroverted functions and introverted functions in a more or less balanced way to make our own ideas, set of values, express them in our own unique way and have our own unique personality based on less unique characteristics.

    By the way, I was about to argue that introverted function might be more expressed than extraverted functions, then that T/F are more expressed than N/S since N/S accompany the reasonment which is, in the end, more shaped and express through T/F but I guess that's mostly linked to which function is dominant so if anyone has a thought about it.
    Feel no shame for what you are...

    INTP
    5w4 or 5w6 sp/so

  10. #10
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    4,226

    Default

    well, my sis was an ESFP. Her house in much "nicer/prettier" than mine and she will jump to help something directly in front of her in need-these are the things that show me how Se works hand in hand with Fi. It is about what brings her an internal sense of value based consistency in the moment. I'd say that it may be important to note that the resolution and development in an EXFP is less so than an IXFP, so I think aux Fi use can often be felt as more of a visceral urge than the more resolved checks and balances of an Fi dom. Thus for my sis, she follows those visceral urges which seek pleasure/beauty/happy feelings of others by being around attractive things and helping others in the very immediate moment. directly in front of her. She cant really seem to understand the pain of others her actions may cause if it isnt right in front of her.

    For her external things has always been important in terms of looks, nice clothing, nice cars. However at the same time she rebelled extremely hard against any sort of boundaries placed in front of her, or attempts to control her. She was also very manic at times and has had a lot of issues with being unable to see into the future very far. Having said all this, she is a very unhealthy person, thus I would not want to make her negative traits an ESFP description-more an unhealthy ESFP, perhaps.

Similar Threads

  1. My Step-daughter Left Home Today
    By Mal12345 in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 06-15-2017, 10:11 PM
  2. [MBTItm] Interesting question for NFPs
    By autumn in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 05-09-2016, 02:01 PM
  3. [SP] Teaching Math to my SP step-daughter
    By Janus Shadowsong in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-22-2011, 07:08 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO