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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    well, my sis was an ESFP. Her house in much "nicer/prettier" than mine and she will jump to help something directly in front of her in need-these are the things that show me how Se works hand in hand with Fi. It is about what brings her an internal sense of value based consistency in the moment. I'd say that it may be important to note that the resolution and development in an EXFP is less so than an IXFP, so I think aux Fi use can often be felt as more of a visceral urge than the more resolved checks and balances of an Fi dom. Thus for my sis, she follows those visceral urges which seek pleasure/beauty/happy feelings of others by being around attractive things and helping others in the very immediate moment. directly in front of her. She cant really seem to understand the pain of others her actions may cause if it isnt right in front of her.

    For her external things has always been important in terms of looks, nice clothing, nice cars. However at the same time she rebelled extremely hard against any sort of boundaries placed in front of her, or attempts to control her. She was also very manic at times and has had a lot of issues with being unable to see into the future very far. Having said all this, she is a very unhealthy person, thus I would not want to make her negative traits an ESFP description-more an unhealthy ESFP, perhaps.
    Thank you all for the excellent replies. I see now that I had not taken into account past observations I had made of my step-daughter's behavior, primarily the fact that she has utterly no Fe, but plenty of Fi. I had not considered this before in function terms. It's just that she's incredibly selfish. (That comes from no Fe.) I'm thinking that her "me me me" attitude is an Se trait.

    I've been asked to give more information, so I suppose I'll give some out just to double-check things. Orobas says his sister's house is much prettier than his, but if my step-daughter had her own place she would turn it into a garbage dump within a few days. I think that's more a function of low IQ.

    Let's see... Saying the first thing that pops into her head - there is no "inner censor" that considers the thought before she expresses it. Many times it comes out in a booming voice and needs to be told to tone it down. Desiring to be in the middle of chaos, if not the cause of it: if she sees a group of people she knows then she has an internal imperative to join in. If they're fighting, she gets right in there and starts badgering people in the group and can't be held back by any force of nature. If she saw a sick puppy, she would practically hug and "awwww" it to death before seeking help: an impractical expression of pity.

    A dislike or hatred of exercise. A dislike of meaningless work. Working in an animal shelter would be best if she could handle the tasks. She thought little of fence-building. No, let's say instead she thought fence-building was purest torture straight from the depths of Hell.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    you really don't like your stepdaughter huh?

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    you really don't like your stepdaughter huh?
    I predicted there would be off-topic remarks of a personal nature if I made one of these threads.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I predicted there would be off-topic remarks of a personal nature if I made one of these threads.
    i don't see how it's off-topic, you're basically bitching about her and trying to cure her personality with mbti somehow. as someone who was blessed with an asshole stepfather at age 14, my best advice is to leave her alone and leave the parenting up to her parents. no girl that age is going to be on their best behavior, especially at home. you've shown a lack of understanding of her behavior from the beginning, so i don't get how you're going to help her 'develop her fi.'

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    i don't see how it's off-topic, you're basically bitching about her and trying to cure her personality with mbti somehow. as someone who was blessed with an asshole stepfather at age 14, my best advice is to leave her alone and leave the parenting up to her parents. no girl that age is going to be on their best behavior, especially at home. you've shown a lack of understanding of her behavior from the beginning, so i don't get how you're going to help her 'develop her fi.'
    You don't know what I'm trying to do.

    And I had an asshole step-parent too.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #16
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Your lens seems to cloud your ability to see her traits in a positive light, and I fear any advice I may offer will fail to provide enough illumination to penetrate that. However, I will add a few thoughts, in the hopes it may help.

    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    Thank you all for the excellent replies. I see now that I had not taken into account past observations I had made of my step-daughter's behavior, primarily the fact that she has utterly no Fe, but plenty of Fi. I had not considered this before in function terms. It's just that she's incredibly selfish. (That comes from no Fe.) I'm thinking that her "me me me" attitude is an Se trait.
    She is 18. Most 18 year olds are rather self-absorbed, regardless of any interpretations of outward altruism.

    Read this, you may find it helpful to you: http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESP.html

    I've been asked to give more information, so I suppose I'll give some out just to double-check things. Orobas says his sister's house is much prettier than his, but if my step-daughter had her own place she would turn it into a garbage dump within a few days. I think that's more a function of low IQ.
    Orobas is a she. My son is an utter slob. And being a slob is not related to IQ. At all. Nor will I quote his IQ here to justify that, but he's been in gifted programs from a young age. That kind of accomplishment holds little interest for him though. Being in the moment is far more compelling. Update your thinking here. Being a slob is an expression of a value - try and interpret what she values and does not from that action.

    Let's see... Saying the first thing that pops into her head - there is no "inner censor" that considers the thought before she expresses it. Many times it comes out in a booming voice and needs to be told to tone it down. Desiring to be in the middle of chaos, if not the cause of it: if she sees a group of people she knows then she has an internal imperative to join in. If they're fighting, she gets right in there and starts badgering people in the group and can't be held back by any force of nature. If she saw a sick puppy, she would practically hug and "awwww" it to death before seeking help: an impractical expression of pity.

    A dislike or hatred of exercise. A dislike of meaningless work. Working in an animal shelter would be best if she could handle the tasks. She thought little of fence-building. No, let's say instead she thought fence-building was purest torture straight from the depths of Hell.
    Sounds like an extrovert.

    Life is pretty challenging for the ESP kids - they have boundless energy and encounter far too many adults with no patience to help them learn how to handle it. And if she's ESFP, inside she is full of INTENSE emotions that she has yet to learn how to harness or manage, and all she knows is that she can't seem to employ that filter at the right moments. The best thing you can do for your step-daughter is have some COMPASSION and help be an outlet for her enthusiasm and enjoy the pure joy of living in the moment she can offer. Model behaviour for her - ESP's learn by doing, not by being told, and if you hold her in disdain, she can feel it emanating from you as sure as she can tell the sun is shining outside. Listen to her stories - my son can talk for hours and can tax my almost prodigious patience, but my goodness, he WANTS to talk to me, and I am so grateful for that! She likely hates exercise but loves PLAY - take her to a baseball game or join a group together for summer sports.

    Not much time left to have those moments before adulthood - get in there and BE in as many as possible.

    ESFP's are typically a little less mature than their peers so be prepared for that too. Making post-secondary choices may seem impossible. Be prepared for lots of mind-changing, and even a year or two off school working may help her decide on a more clear path.

    Good luck.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #17
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Your lens seems to cloud your ability to see her traits in a positive light, and I fear any advice I may offer will fail to provide enough illumination to penetrate that. However, I will add a few thoughts, in the hopes it may help.
    However, those are the thoughts I chose to put in a comment. They may not represent the extent or even quality of all my ideas about this. And anyway, the thread topic is not about me, as much as you two would like to make it about me.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    She is 18. Most 18 year olds are rather self-absorbed, regardless of any interpretations of outward altruism.

    Read this, you may find it helpful to you: http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESP.html[
    Not all of those traits are true of my step-daughter. Most of them I'd say are true. I like the part about memory for details. She can readily memorize the placement of every object in a room.

    However, in my description above I was trying to focus on some of her Fi traits. Whereas your link describing the ESP does not include either Fi or Ti. I still haven't received any feedback on my "double-checking," as I called it. Oh well. This thread should have ended a few posts ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Orobas is a she. My son is an utter slob. And being a slob is not related to IQ. At all.
    No kidding? I don't know the relationship between low IQ and slobbishness, so I said "I think" it's a function of low IQ. And I implied nothing about high IQ or gifted people and slobbishness.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Nor will I quote his IQ here to justify that, but he's been in gifted programs from a young age. That kind of accomplishment holds little interest to him. Being in the moment is far more compelling. Update your thinking here. Being a slob is an expression of a value - try and interpret what she values and does not from that action.
    So how about valuing my Original Post?


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Sounds like an extrovert.

    Life is pretty challenging for the ESP kids - they have boundless energy and encounter far too many adults with no patience to help them learn how to handle it. And if she's ESFP, inside she is full of INTENSE emotions that she has yet to learn how to harness or manage, and all she knows is that she can't seem to employ that filter at the right moments. The best thing you can do for your step-daughter is have some COMPASSION and help be an outlet for her enthusiasm and enjoy the pure joy of living in the moment she can offer. Model behaviour for her - ESP's learn by doing, not by being told, and if you hold her in disdain, she can feel it emanating from you as sure as she can tell the sun is shining outside. Listen to her stories - my son can talk for hours and can even tax my prodigious patience, but my goodness, he WANTS to talk to me, and I am so grateful for that! She likely hates exercise but loves PLAY - take her to a baseball game or join a group together for summer sports.

    Not much time left to have those moments before adulthood - get in there and BE in as many as possible.

    Good luck.
    Thanks, I'll need it. And yes we have made plans for her summer activities, and beyond.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #18
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I could have answered your post here in a more Fe friendly way. I chose not to. Why? Because your response to what you are thinking of me as sending emotions towards you is how your words look like to Fi eyes - like you are leveling judgment against her. And Fi will push back against that. Just like your Fe is pushing back against me. See? (Hoping this was a helpful demonstration to attempt.)

    Personally, I think it's a great idea you made the thread, especially if you want to gauge ways to be a better parent by knowing her type. I can tell you seeing Fi in a young ESFP is difficult, and I am not sure if there's a way to "mature" it. For me, as an INFP, I had to store enough Si data to build a model of the world upon which to structure all the emotional data I would receive in any given day. I think, for an SFP, tertiary/inferior Ni has to kick in, to help them create enough feasible paradigms to lend a kind of "flexiness" and perspective to Fi that is lacking as a young person. But that's just a guess.

    Try to help her identify the personal pay-off to the meaningless work - if she is anything like my son, doing it out of a sense of responsibility or obligation or to make you "happy" or evade guilt holds no power or sway at all. That's one thing that I've been brainstorming lately with my son - helping him identify his own motivations to help him get through the drudgery.



    Are you wanting to be able to identify Fi with more precision in an SFP? What kind of information would be helpful to you? Your examples didn't help me too much "seeing" Fi, aside from the compassion to an injured animal.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #19
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    I don't see how my Fe is pushing back against you. Can you please explain this? Dammit, it was supposed to be my Ti doing the pushing back...

    My original question asked how to make my step-daughter's Fi more developed because I thought I was seeing Fe. Whereas, an ESFP should have a more developed Fi. In fact, before today I hadn't put much thought into applying Jungian functions to her because I'm more Enneagram oriented. I see her as an effusive e2 or 3 most of the time, and I consider effusiveness to be an Fe trait, although that's not necessarily always the case. So using the Enneagram didn't help me determine anything about Jungian functions. In fact, it was a dire hindrance.

    If I call my step-daughter selfish - which she is - I get called to the floor for being a judgmental or even evillllllll stepfather. In fact, "selfishness" is a psychological, not a moral, category. And I don't call her a selfish 'B' or anything of that nature. Objectively speaking, "selfishness" means "concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself : seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others."
    In reality, getting along with this kind of person can be problematic because of the excessive degree of concern with oneself. To be moderately selfish is by far more acceptable in society, and that would describe the average person in most places around the world. The Fe, on the other hand, attempts to be unselfish, and this leads to personality difficulties and relationship problems as the Fe's innate selfishness tries to come out in unhealthy ways. (Moderate unselfishness is important too.) So what I'm talking about here is a person who would have difficulty getting along in society extant, just as she had problems in high school desiring to be one of the popular girls while being considered an odd bird in her class because of her lack of social manners (speaking out of turn, showing people her cuts, barging in where she hasn't been invited, inappropriate sexual gestures, etc.).

    I hate to think that my only reasonable hope is that she moderates on her own, as someone above explained happened to an ESFP of her own acquaintance.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think, for an ESFP, tertiary Ni has to kick in, to help them create enough feasible paradigms to lend a kind of "flexiness" and perspective to Fi that is lacking as a young person. But that's just a guess.
    I can't do much with guesses. And you really don't know if she personally has a tertiary Ni, as that's just a theory. And according to sources on the internet, as a theory it is rather debatable.

    On the other hand, my creating this thread was not any kind of "cry for help." Now that they've helped me determine that my stepdaughter really is SeFi, I can go with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Try to help her identify the personal pay-off to the meaningless work...
    In other words, a selfish pay-off such as an immediate reward. That's a common tactic around here. However, the school where she was doing the fence-building for a day doesn't care about dealing out immediate rewards, schools tend to use threats of punishment. She didn't do well in school at all until we found her an IEP school. The rest of them were complete all-around flops for obvious reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Are you wanting to be able to identify Fi with more precision in an SFP?
    Her outgoing behavior does not make that necessary. Her acting out the Fi in such an effusive manner was confusing to me at first because of the introversion of the Fi. But now I "get it."

    Now I think she needs more Fe in her personality make-up. (And I don't mean the element Fe.)

    You mentioned that you only saw one aspect of Fi in my last description. In fact, "getting up in the mix" when there's a fight happening is definitely the Fi in her, although the aggressive stance of this Fi outburst is once again confusing at first. She often tries to foist her personal value system on to others, and as I said above, it is not done in a socially appropriate manner. I would call it a "thuggish" Fi mannerism.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #20
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ Oh I see you meant literal fighting. k - if she's attempting to forge a sort of value-based peace, getting mixed up in the conflict, that could be a possible Fi example too.

    Let me re-read this in the morning, and share a bit more - am currently heading to bed. Perhaps there will be some more thoughts here too by then ... might be helpful.

    It does sound like you're trying to change her against her nature, rather than try to help her work with her nature, do you know what I mean by the difference? And why is knowing she is Se-Fi "enough"? Are you that confident from this thread to make that conclusion? How do you conclude she needs Fe? If she is ESFP, she actually needs to work on developing Te through her twenties to give her enough focus to get past identifying and motivating only from the immediate payoff and apply more objective logic to situations - and by that phrase too, I mean - it has to resonate within her to do something, it does not need to be a "selfish" payoff ...

    THEN comes inferior Ni for ESFP (fixed my post above after your quote) ... theory goes that development of the inferior doesn't occur 'til the thirties and beyond.

    Perhaps you could invite shortnsweet and some of the other SFPs (such as wolfy) and see what their thoughts are too.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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