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  1. #181
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    I have reached this conclusion: ISFJ, 1w9.

    Are you relieved?

  2. #182
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    This is taken from the "Habitual Avoidance" thread by Vagrant Farce:


    What you've said sounds very 9-ish to me.
    Let's try it!

    Nines are the most patient and tolerant types in the enneagram. They have an innate belief that other people are similar to them underneath in a way they can't explain that makes them anything but megalomanic. They are truly accepting of peoples' faults and are biased to give others the benefit of the doubt. They are good listeners and one can talk to them about almost anything. They are able to see where others are coming from and can genuinely sympathize with what it feels like to not be listened to. They can make people feel good about even the deepest gloom.

    They are easygoing and low-maintainence. They enjoy relaxing and letting their minds wander. They like immersing themselves in their hobbies and are often drawn to the outdoors. They don't impose their preferences and aren't sticklers over little things. They don't need for things to be spelled out. They are good-natured and unflappable. They have the ability to stay hopeful as well as level-headed and calm during a real crisis. Whether they are anxious, fustrated, angry, excited, or enthused, they show less than most people and appear stable no matter what.

    They see being united and coming together in a positive light. They believe in "flow", whether it's going with the flow, idealizing a reality or philosophy that has flow, synchronizing themselves with the ebbs and flows of life, or being attracted to what naturally flows. They have a knack for waiting for the right time when things to come to them instead of them forcing the action. They have just enough of a positive outlook to favor letting things work out on their own but are anything but full of themselves. They have a good balance between being competitive and someone to simply hang with. All in all nines tend to be likeable.

    As gut types nines are very "present" in their bodies in a naturally grounded and inert way. From being in the center of the gut triad they are saturated with enough earthy energy to make staying in their comfort zone their main priority, to the point where they block out the harshness and complications of life, and whatever doesn't "jive" with them in general. They want as much as possible for things to go smoothly and resist what bothers them. Their autonomy is important to them and a lot of things that make life more complicated aren't worth the trouble. With their instinctive energy trapped inside them they tend to stick with what's familiar, sometimes to the point of inertia and complacency. They go with the flow and are reluctant to assert their preferences outside of their comfort zone. They like feeling invited and feeding off others' energy but not to the point of no longer being able to slip in and out seamlessly. They lack strong personal boundaries in that they rarely tell people to go away so they don't want to risk a level of involvement that could lead to unwanted obligations. When they don't take the initiative to make themselves heard it often leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy of others ignoring them. They hold back their fustrations although they may not realize how much they do this.

    On a much deeper level the underlying current of "anger" in gut types is traced to the eternal fustration of not being able to see themselves well [kind of, it's more like a resolve not to "whine"] due to being overly present in their bodies, similar to the fustration of groping in the dark. Inner needs like cultivating an identity have trouble being met with an unconscious sense of self, which in conjunction with being "held back" by their inertness makes it hard to get out from inside of them what they really mean and how they really feel. This constant low-idle "groping in the dark" rhythmic body-consciousness from which fustration and anger springs is the primary backdrop of the "overly present in their body" gut triad, similar to anxiety and shame for the head and image triads respectively. Although nines may deny their annoyance and irritation as forms of anger, they loathe being pushed or bothered, and especially anything that even faintly smells of obligation. Like eights and ones a nine's underlying fustration is there but instead gets redirected into less visceral forms like stubbornness and digging in their heels. If they are dragged into doing something they grit their teeth and make the best of it. Nines have an easier time accessing sadness, fear, hurt, confusion, numbness, than anger itself though ironically they get mad at themselves for saying yes when they didn't mean to.

    Nines being very present in their bodies comes at the expense of having a conscious sense of "self" or awareness of having a persona. This makes them seem the least "put on" and adds to their likeability. On the flip side this lack of an identity makes them prone to self-neglect and introjecting aspects of others without them realizing it. That's why nines have difficulty vocalizing what they want or how they are feeling. When they say yes to the possibility of something in general others misinterpret that as committing to a real yes. They also have difficulty saying no with enough conviction for others to get the message that it's non-negotiable, especially when they feel pushed to defend and justify the no to someone who refuses to take no for an answer. This is a source of fustration for them and only adds to why they think communicating their wants and needs isn't worth the trouble. In an external sense nines tend to believe "everything will turn out fine"..."no need to get panicky"..."there are ways to work around that and we'll find them", while on an internal level nines have lowered expectations and are less positive thinking. They tend to see a bland neutral world with many shades of grey and prefer to be positive as they find negativity draining. That is why nines are more positive outlook than pure optimists like sevens.

    Nines see the waves of conflict between them and others larger and more treacherous than they really are. They can be unnerved by focused negative energy and to a lesser extent relentlessness. What others see as a spirited discussion they see as a needlessly arguementative atmosphere. [Sort, of, I'm kinda neurotic about it due to my perfectionism.] They don't like it when people feel compelled to fight over stuff in raised voices rather than try to discuss and merely understand each other. They feel people interrupt them and never give them an opportunity to say something important. They settle for an illusion that if they don't invite conflict or rock the boat everything will be okay. They bury their anger and fustration and are happy that their boat is still floating even if it's just drifting out of inertia. Steering the boat through problems would require a sense of direction so they are content to let it drift along. By ignoring problems they make them worse which causes them to ignore them even more and a negative feedback loop ensues. When there's too much swept under the rug to "numb out" any longer they finally erupt. This takes others aback and reinforces to them that anger is bad. On a more subconscious level they try to neutralize their anger by seeing the good in people.

    Much of a nine's issues surface in relationships where it's about two people getting what they want from each other. It's not uncommon for nines to seem apathetic and invest less of themselves in something to protect themselves emotionally in case things go bad. To others they can seem emotionally disconnected or "numbed out". In relationships they are often able to shrug off disappointments easier because they had already left internally to some degree. It's not a matter of them not being accepting enough for if anything they hold out too much hope. They feel that people ignore them as well as don't pay attention or listen to them. Once they've determined things are passed the point of no return, they try to get the other person to leave by being unavailable and unappealing so that they have a guilt-free conscience. They don't think they make waves or invoke strong feelings in others. This way they confirm to themselves that they are invisible enough to slip in and out of situations without making enough waves to be responsible for whatever happens. In prematurely resigning themselves to being less visible they underestimate the effect they have on others and are surprised at how blindsided close ones can be.

    Because nines are less "present" on the inside their cognition has less "form" or "definition" and therefore less of the restrictions that accompany them. This enables nines to gloss over negative scenarios just enough to think they can live a simple and easy life without disruptions, provided they don't invite conflict that could lead to estrangement from others(9w1), or make life more difficult for themselves(9w8). They especially fear being separated from loved ones(9w1), or losing loved ones permanently(9w8). Emphasizing they are distinctly separate individuals goes against their ego in not having self-importance(9w1), or in their self-importance not mattering(9w8).

    With their ability to subtly gloss over what's uncomfortable to think about nines are able to drown out what disturbs their peace of mind(9w1), or their rhythm(9w8). While the seven's jumping-the-gun cognition makes them clearly see positive scenarios before the future can disprove them, the nine's more elastic cognition makes them block out what they consider disruptive. Due to having less "form" or "definition" their cognition is often more in symbols and images and other things of a less conscious nature than concrete words. They can be complacent and selectively not remember things. Any one thing can possibly lead to anything, for unlike fives there are no dead ends or other cognitive restrictions to their thinking process. They tend to explain things in stories where one thought naturally flows to another. This type of internal wiring though can make it harder to discriminate between what is essential and what isn't, and makes it more difficult to find their calling in life and set priorities. Although their ability to see many shades of grey gives them a talent for mediating others' disputes, it makes it harder to isolate what they really want in life.

    In an everchanging world they are reluctant to commit on the spot as they feel a need to have something "jive" with them to tell if they really want it or not. They fear being swept up in the wrong thing and the obligations that come with it..."do I really want this or not?" Enough stress makes them hunker down and avoid everything as well as numb out. "Why bother?"..."which way to go?..."it doesn't really matter does it?"..."I don't know so I'll stay here and hope it goes away." Therefore their top priority remains to be as comfortable as possible with what's familiar, internally as well as externally. To achieve this their more amorphous cognition makes them block out what is outside of their comfort zone, particularly the harshness and complications of life.

    In enneagram theory nines are instinctive(gut) center primary at the expense of their thinking and identity centers. This leads them to become more "checked out" and numb to their feelings in response to conflict or another stessor, as well as overfocus on living comfortably at the expense of critical thinking beyond their comfort zone and a developed identity. However a sense of self even if it's false helps one "get out there" and have one's self-perception and version of reality regularly tested. On a deeper level nines take pride in their invisibility as otherwise it would be too much of a blow for their invisibility to be "confirmed" by others on top of not being able to see themselves. Twisting their perceived invisibility into a strength also enables them to use it as an excuse to do whatever they have to do to stay in their comfort zone. On a deeper level they want to be stay in their comfort zone and avoid taking responsibility for their true needs and desires. A person needs to be a part of themselves before they are a part of anything though. Hence nines need to see themselves as distinctly seperate to connect with greater humanity.

    Nines attempt to reach a state of premature comfort and/or enlightenment. Seeing friction and a lack of fluidity in eights and ones next to them may awaken some nines to the possibility that an easy life without disruptions may lead to missing out on essential parts of the human experience like being involved. Other nines may immerse themselves in activities to feel more alive to counteract inertia. Yet other nines may be surprisingly intellectual and even indulge in introspection, though the latter is usually on their terms. Similar to sixes there can be a wide range of nines. While it's not uncommon for nines to seem like fours, fives, sixes, and sevens even, what all nines have in common is presuming that things will be okay if they stay in their comfort zone by minimizing conflict and tension as well as blocking out the harshness and complications of life, numbing out what's unpleasant, an attraction to "flow" or willingness to go with the flow, and an underdeveloped sense of identity so that they often feel "invisible".

    To get healthier nines need to wean themselves off autopilot mode or away from any delusion that they can ascend to a nirvana-like state without going through the arduous process of figuring out who they are and what they really want in life. They need to accept the reality that emotional pain cannot be numbed or escaped and instead comes with simply being present. They then need to learn to put themselves out there and allow for the discomfort that comes from being more emotionally honest and engaged with others. They need to stand by their own convictions and accept the risk that they will find conflict and come up against others' opinions. To live a more honest life they have to lay it out there and accept that whatever happens happens. If others reject their right to see things the way they do they are rejecting their truth which is unacceptable. Thus conflict can finally lead to closure. Once they see that anger is conviction in their truth they can see it as a constructive force that they could and should experience in realtime. When healthy nines are able to stay focused and rational during anger and let it run its natural course. They can then utulize their strength at seeing the merits of others' views without losing themselves in the process. With new self-assertion victories their sense of identity is developed enough to enable them to escape inertia instead of pain. They can become more "alive" and begin the positive feedback loop of engaging life more fully, releasing the logjam of instinctive energy that's trapped inside them.

    The instinctive triad seems to "just know" compared to the relatively ungrounded cognition of other types so being in the center nines present an interesting paradox. They are more in touch with less conscious processes and the collective unconscious, yet have a tendency to be disengaged and subtly gloss over things that go against their preferred way of seeing reality. They have a knack for going with the flow and waiting for things to develop instead of forcing the action, but are also more prone to seeing what they want to see and living in their own bubble. Being in the center of the instinctive triad they are saturated with enough of the less conscious gut energy(not to be confused with not being intellectual) that it can be difficult to overcome their inertia and "get up and go". It's similar to sixes who "what if" so much they fake themselves out and threes who try too hard to hit the right notes with people.
    There's quite a lot of stuff there that could be interpreted in different ways, so feel free to ask more if needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I have reached this conclusion: ISFJ, 1w9.

    Are you relieved?
    Ah, you know your feedback is always welcome, Nic. ISFJ 1w9 could explain some of my contradictory tendencies...

  3. #183
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    This part here that you bolded is one of the most important defining factors of a 9: "When they don't take the initiative to make themselves heard it often leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy of others ignoring them." This is one of 9's main issues that is caused by their desire to maintain harmony and avoid conflict, and it's an issue that every 9 must deal with in order to grow. Another important defining factor is that 9's don't want to experience negative feelings, so they "numb" themselves out, trying to close off their emotions. Is that something you can relate to?

    Also, you bolded "they can seem emotionally disconnected". By that, do you mean that you are emotionally disconnected, or that you just seem that way? Based on what I've read on other forums, this is an important distinction between 5's and 9's. 9's want to be emotionally connected and fear being cut off, while 5's may seem accommodating, though they prefer to keep some distance and not get emotionally involved.

  4. #184
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Ah, you know your feedback is always welcome, Nic. ISFJ 1w9 could explain some of my contradictory tendencies...
    What will it take for you to decide? What kind of validation are you waiting for? The ah-this-is-me moment will not happen in your case: if it could, it would already have.

  5. #185
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    This part here that you bolded is one of the most important defining factors of a 9: "When they don't take the initiative to make themselves heard it often leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy of others ignoring them." This is one of 9's main issues that is caused by their desire to maintain harmony and avoid conflict, and it's an issue that every 9 must deal with in order to grow. Another important defining factor is that 9's don't want to experience negative feelings, so they "numb" themselves out, trying to close off their emotions. Is that something you can relate to?
    I don't know if "numbing negative feelings" is my schtick... I mean, I spend a lot of time on the internet, which in some ways is a way of avoiding unpleasant things like university stuff or parent-child issues... But, at the same time, I feel like there's a bitterness that haunts the nooks and crannies of my heart when something dspleases me; mind you, it's hard for me to express those feelings due to me wanting to feel "like an adult", to avoid "whining" and to be strong, to not be a burden/a grumps/a rainy cloud, or to not displease the people I care about and to whom I owe a lot. I have some pretty high standards for myself, but I'm also kind of a slacker. ^_^''

    As an important note, it seems to me that my "bottled anger" can be quite apparent to those around me, despite them saying that they don't always know what I'm feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    Also, you bolded "they can seem emotionally disconnected". By that, do you mean that you are emotionally disconnected, or that you just seem that way? Based on what I've read on other forums, this is an important distinction between 5's and 9's. 9's want to be emotionally connected and fear being cut off, while 5's may seem accommodating, though they prefer to keep some distance and not get emotionally involved.
    I guess I kinda seem that way... I'm very sensitive, both to praise and to rejection (although I often feel as though the praise is undeserved ), but I'm also a bit hard to read, stoic even at times. When I was at a funeral, and didn't cry as much as other people did, I even wondered whether I was a sociopath.

    So, basically, I can get all and I can get all , although I don't always show it...

    Mostly, though, I look kinda like this:


  6. #186
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    What will it take for you to decide? What kind of validation are you waiting for? The ah-this-is-me moment will not happen in your case: if it could, it would already have.
    I don't know, but I understand your frustration... What did it take for you? Maybe I'm simply in a transitional stage of my life, university and all...

  7. #187
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I don't know if "numbing negative feelings" is my schtick... I mean, I spend a lot of time on the internet, which in some ways is a way of avoiding unpleasant things like university stuff or parent-child issues... But, at the same time, I feel like there's a bitterness that haunts the nooks and crannies of my heart when something dspleases me; mind you, it's hard for me to express those feelings due to me wanting to feel "like an adult", to avoid "whining" and to be strong, to not be a burden/a grumps/a rainy cloud, or to not displease the people I care about and to whom I owe a lot. I have some pretty high standards for myself, but I'm also kind of a slacker. ^_^''

    As an important note, it seems to me that my "bottled anger" can be quite apparent to those around me, despite them saying that they don't always know what I'm feeling.
    Whether or not you show your emotions has nothing to do with it. I feel the same way about showing negative emotions, it just feels like whining so I avoid it. When I say "numbing negative feelings", I mean on the inside. Do you allow yourself to experience your negative emotions, or do you push them away? 9's can't stand negative emotions and will do anything they can to avoid experiencing them, while 4's may even enjoy their melancholy on some level (which would be completely foreign to a 9).

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I guess I kinda seem that way... I'm very sensitive, both to praise and to rejection (although I often feel as though the praise is undeserved ), but I'm also a bit hard to read, stoic even at times. When I was at a funeral, and didn't cry as much as other people did, I even wondered whether I was a sociopath.

    So, basically, I can get all and I can get all , although I don't always show it...
    Sensitivity definitely fits with 4, though 9's can be sensitive as well. And not crying at a funeral does not make you a sociopath! Not everyone responds to sadness with tears. I also don't normally cry much at times like that.

  8. #188
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I don't know [...]
    I could have known...

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    What did it take for you?
    Nothing. I learned my type before I knew what types were from an accidental test on the internet (Keirsey, when the online test was still for free). Years later I took another one (now some MBTI thing) that gave the same result. The profiles sounded true. The functions seem to make sense; but if you describe your concepts woolly enough, everyone finds himself somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Maybe I'm simply in a transitional stage of my life, university and all...
    Maybe you ask for things that these theories cannot answer.

  9. #189
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    Whether or not you show your emotions has nothing to do with it. I feel the same way about showing negative emotions, it just feels like whining so I avoid it.
    Really? No offense, but I though Type 4 was all about expressing genuine, passionate emotions... (Maybe it's the wing?)

    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    When I say "numbing negative feelings", I mean on the inside. Do you allow yourself to experience your negative emotions, or do you push them away? 9's can't stand negative emotions and will do anything they can to avoid experiencing them, while 4's may even enjoy their melancholy on some level (which would be completely foreign to a 9).
    I kind of enjoy my melancholy a bit, but it also feels like a quagmire because I associate it with my own anxieties about my uncertain future... Also, I feel like I lack the perspective to know when it's okay to feel pissed off at something outside myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    Sensitivity definitely fits with 4, though 9's can be sensitive as well. And not crying at a funeral does not make you a sociopath! Not everyone responds to sadness with tears. I also don't normally cry much at times like that.
    Oh, I now realize that... See, it was a close family member and my lack of tears there is a recurring theme in my shrink's observations... Kinda private stuff. But thankies!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I could have known...


    Nothing. I learned my type before I knew what types were from an accidental test on the internet (Keirsey, when the online test was still for free). Years later I took another one (now some MBTI thing) that gave the same result. The profiles sounded true. The functions seem to make sense; but if you describe your concepts woolly enough, everyone finds himself somewhere.


    Maybe you ask for things that these theories cannot answer.
    Yeah, I understand that. Yet, I think MBTI is a relevant part of my identity, and I also find it useful to understand those around me in some aspects.

    You've helped plenty, Nic. No need to keep watching me shuffle my feet if you don't want to.

    Will do the 4 thing tomorrow.

  10. #190
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Really? No offense, but I though Type 4 was all about expressing genuine, passionate emotions... (Maybe it's the wing?)
    Not necessarily. I suppose the more dramatic and expressive 4's could be that way, but not all 4's. I keep my emotions within and rarely show them on the outside. Maybe 4's are really more about having genuine, passionate emotions, whether or not they choose to express them.

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