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  1. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vizzy View Post
    Please do create a thread on this because I'm unsure about your definition of Ti and Te.
    I'm always very skeptical about something if it doesn't make sense to me, and that test is flawed, in my humble opinion. Therefore, I'd prefer not to give it too much credence. (Note the words "too much" - which means it's likely that I'm half-accepting it too). I don't see the point in churning out those cognitive functions scores again and again when the order varies so drastically and too easily to convince me. I enjoy studying the reasoning behind the test. It's the implementation that's not doing it for me.

    Personally, you seem a bit too sure about the system - the way you go about saying "If you have ___ then you're ____. If not, then it's _____." Is it really that clear-cut? Sounds a bit Te-ish to me.
    Yeah, to be honest I'm not really too sure about this. It's sort of a hypothesis right now, and even if there's some truth to it, it still needs tweaking. I guess I'll go make that thread now and see what happens. Maybe this will all turn out to be nonsense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    My dad's an ESFJ; we have very different styles - I'm all, "I just want to be alone, 'kay?", and he's all, "Let's do something together!". Plus, I was pretty much the "quiet bookworm" back in high school, but I think I've said that already. Point is, ESFJ is very unlikely, as is 2w3 (Three wing? Why?). I'm open-minded about the rest, though.
    Well, even two individuals of the same JFC type will look very different if they have different enneagram and socioics types, but perhaps Fe dom is a bit of a stretch. In that case, ISFJ is probably most likely, considering that from what you have posted, your more of an Fe user then so Fi. Also, I thought I saw more 2w3ness in the questionaire, but 2 wise, you may be more 2w1 (if you are two). Although you should give this read, as it describes the enneagram types with the wings included:

    http://typewatchenneagram.blogspot.c...criptions.html

    Hopefully that should be of help

  3. #173
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Well, even two individuals of the same JFC type will look very different if they have different enneagram and socioics types, but perhaps Fe dom is a bit of a stretch. In that case, ISFJ is probably most likely, considering that from what you have posted, your more of an Fe user then so Fi. Also, I thought I saw more 2w3ness in the questionaire, but 2 wise, you may be more 2w1 (if you are two). Although you should give this read, as it describes the enneagram types with the wings included:

    http://typewatchenneagram.blogspot.c...criptions.html

    Hopefully that should be of help
    Good call! Let's try the bold = me / strike = not me thing, shall we?

    Twos are about love and other people and especially pride. Specifically twos are kind and gentle feeling types who take pride in being considerate of others to feel worthy of being loved themselves. They take pride in seeing people as people. They like people and want to feel closer to them. They take pride in recognizing the importance of others...the "I"..."you"...and "me". They are receptive and responsive. They have strong empathetic feelings and take pride in being sensitive and compassionate towards others. They are attuned to what others might need. This can include people they hardly know or even in an abstract capacity.

    Simply being caring and compassionate isn't enough though. Twos are natural givers and handpick themselves as the person to fulfill what others need. They feel drawn to be in a facilitating role where they feel they can make a difference in people's lives. They take pride in considering all people important especially the disadvantaged and the neglected. No one is left behind. They take pride in being willing to get involved in roles that require getting in the trenches. They are drawn to being mentors and facilitators and volunteer roles in general. A two whom no one notices does the thankless job of stocking shelves in the back. Another two dutifully answers your questions and does whatever you ask. Another two greets you warmly at the door and offers to show you around the place. Another two organized all the twos together for the volunteer effort. While each of these twos are different fulfilling other people's needs gives all of them a sense of pride.

    Twos take pride in being strong enough to take care of themselves and not need help in addition to being strong enough to assist others who do need help. Twos are image types and maintaining a sense of dignity is central to the considerate of others persona they've cultivated. They don't need to "collect" for the good they have done for others. They take pride in not being a burden on others and don't like admitting they have problems to fix and needs to be met. They prefer to deal with their issues themselves as people depend on them not the other way around. It is others that need help and not the two.

    This twoish blindspot of others needing them more than vice versa is caused by their pride. They don't see themselves well due to their other-directed self-image orientation. They can be uncannily skilled at reading other people's emotional states and responding accordingly but often don't recognize their own needs and underlying motives. While they take pride in their loved ones' being better off due to them they need to be the main person in their lives. They need to feel essential to them in some capacity and have a knack for accomplishing that. If they have acted on good intentions they have earned the right to be loved and appreciated. If they go out of their way for others and get overlooked then they hurt a great deal. Even answering "no" is way better than not acknowledging their offer. They try to cover up the pain with their pride in being a good person and that it's others' fault for not recognizing that.

    In enneagram theory twos are feeling-gut-thinking in that order and pride themselves in being considerate of others. They go with their feelings at the expense of looking at the cold hard realities of others and seeing themselves clearly. Their biggest fear is being unworthy of love and no longer being essential to others they care about. Being superego compliant types they justify being and existing in general by their willingness to go out of their way for others and supress their ugly and aggressive tendencies. They are tougher than the kind and gentle persona they project and being image types their self-image must be protected at all costs. They take pride in their own humility by being self-effacing. They note others who are more worthy. They also downplay themselves relative to others and say the kindness they displayed was nothing major. They always seem to remember the special occasions about others especially birthdays and anniversaries. Every good deed is an opportunity to score points with themselves over how unselfish they are. They try so hard to be unselfish that they ironically become selfish in the process.

    Living up to their "good" self-image also makes twos surprisingly perfectionistic about meeting their own standards and expectations. It's really more about meeting their demands than the demands of others. They willingly put themselves in positions where they enjoy being accountable to the bar they set for themselves. Typical type two streams of consciousness are "Does it make me a bad person if I don't trust him?"..."What will I think of myself if I don't live up to this? I have to do this!" Their shame at not meeting their own expectations is a source of drive. Being image types the deeds they do equals who they are and being superego compliant they have the hardest time forgiving themselves. They have a lot of pride in being considerate so anything to the contrary is very difficult to swallow.

    Like all image types twos cultivate a persona and confuse that with their true self. The more unhealthy a two is the greater the disconnect and the greater their pride based on their false persona. They have more pride in being self-effacing...kind...and gentle than actually being those qualities. This causes them to overestimate how considerate of others they are and how much people should feel grateful for them. They give to get to reaffirm their selfless identity even to the point of misprojecting other's needs. They then guilt-trip..."after all I've done for you". Tell them they have ulterior motives like "You just want to do this for me to claim credit for being a good person don't you" and heaven help you. Manipulating and intrusive tendencies emerge that are at odds with their angelic self-image. Beneath their velvet glove is an iron hand with a steely resolve. They like others having strings attached to them as it gives them a veiled form of control. The more unhealthy they are the more strings attached they want so that others can't easily sever their connections to them. It's all about keeping the strings attached even by becoming victims themselves if necessary. Healthy twos in contrast have learned to use their thinking center to see their pride for what it is. They've learned to seperate their character from their self-image. If they make a mistake that goes against their self-image of being a good person they can release themselves from their guilt and forgive themselves. They've learned to be comfortable with being selfish when it's called for. They become helpful and supportive without needing that to score points with themselves.
    I was ambiguous about a lot of stuff here...

    I also should mention that, as a kid, I was a bit arrogant in some ways... I was "the smart kid" in my classroom and felt "special" ; I made a specific distinction between "weird" and "eccentric" (no kidding, I used that word ). Even after that physics wiz usurped my position proved himself smarter than me, I prided myself in being quiet and bookish, always reading during recess. College has kind of... clipped my wings.

  4. #174
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Good call! Let's try the bold = me / strike = not me thing, shall we?

    Twos are about love and other people and especially pride. Specifically twos are kind and gentle feeling types who take pride in being considerate of others to feel worthy of being loved themselves. They take pride in seeing people as people. They like people and want to feel closer to them. They take pride in recognizing the importance of others...the "I"..."you"...and "me". They are receptive and responsive. They have strong empathetic feelings and take pride in being sensitive and compassionate towards others. They are attuned to what others might need. This can include people they hardly know or even in an abstract capacity.

    Simply being caring and compassionate isn't enough though. Twos are natural givers and handpick themselves as the person to fulfill what others need. They feel drawn to be in a facilitating role where they feel they can make a difference in people's lives. They take pride in considering all people important especially the disadvantaged and the neglected. No one is left behind. They take pride in being willing to get involved in roles that require getting in the trenches. They are drawn to being mentors and facilitators and volunteer roles in general. A two whom no one notices does the thankless job of stocking shelves in the back. Another two dutifully answers your questions and does whatever you ask. Another two greets you warmly at the door and offers to show you around the place. Another two organized all the twos together for the volunteer effort. While each of these twos are different fulfilling other people's needs gives all of them a sense of pride.

    Twos take pride in being strong enough to take care of themselves and not need help in addition to being strong enough to assist others who do need help. Twos are image types and maintaining a sense of dignity is central to the considerate of others persona they've cultivated. They don't need to "collect" for the good they have done for others. They take pride in not being a burden on others and don't like admitting they have problems to fix and needs to be met. They prefer to deal with their issues themselves as people depend on them not the other way around. It is others that need help and not the two.

    This twoish blindspot of others needing them more than vice versa is caused by their pride. They don't see themselves well due to their other-directed self-image orientation. They can be uncannily skilled at reading other people's emotional states and responding accordingly but often don't recognize their own needs and underlying motives. While they take pride in their loved ones' being better off due to them they need to be the main person in their lives. They need to feel essential to them in some capacity and have a knack for accomplishing that. If they have acted on good intentions they have earned the right to be loved and appreciated. If they go out of their way for others and get overlooked then they hurt a great deal. Even answering "no" is way better than not acknowledging their offer. They try to cover up the pain with their pride in being a good person and that it's others' fault for not recognizing that.

    In enneagram theory twos are feeling-gut-thinking in that order and pride themselves in being considerate of others. They go with their feelings at the expense of looking at the cold hard realities of others and seeing themselves clearly. Their biggest fear is being unworthy of love and no longer being essential to others they care about. Being superego compliant types they justify being and existing in general by their willingness to go out of their way for others and supress their ugly and aggressive tendencies. They are tougher than the kind and gentle persona they project and being image types their self-image must be protected at all costs. They take pride in their own humility by being self-effacing. They note others who are more worthy. They also downplay themselves relative to others and say the kindness they displayed was nothing major. They always seem to remember the special occasions about others especially birthdays and anniversaries. Every good deed is an opportunity to score points with themselves over how unselfish they are. They try so hard to be unselfish that they ironically become selfish in the process.

    Living up to their "good" self-image also makes twos surprisingly perfectionistic about meeting their own standards and expectations. It's really more about meeting their demands than the demands of others. They willingly put themselves in positions where they enjoy being accountable to the bar they set for themselves. Typical type two streams of consciousness are "Does it make me a bad person if I don't trust him?"..."What will I think of myself if I don't live up to this? I have to do this!" Their shame at not meeting their own expectations is a source of drive. Being image types the deeds they do equals who they are and being superego compliant they have the hardest time forgiving themselves. They have a lot of pride in being considerate so anything to the contrary is very difficult to swallow.

    Like all image types twos cultivate a persona and confuse that with their true self. The more unhealthy a two is the greater the disconnect and the greater their pride based on their false persona. They have more pride in being self-effacing...kind...and gentle than actually being those qualities. This causes them to overestimate how considerate of others they are and how much people should feel grateful for them. They give to get to reaffirm their selfless identity even to the point of misprojecting other's needs. They then guilt-trip..."after all I've done for you". Tell them they have ulterior motives like "You just want to do this for me to claim credit for being a good person don't you" and heaven help you. Manipulating and intrusive tendencies emerge that are at odds with their angelic self-image. Beneath their velvet glove is an iron hand with a steely resolve. They like others having strings attached to them as it gives them a veiled form of control. The more unhealthy they are the more strings attached they want so that others can't easily sever their connections to them. It's all about keeping the strings attached even by becoming victims themselves if necessary. Healthy twos in contrast have learned to use their thinking center to see their pride for what it is. They've learned to seperate their character from their self-image. If they make a mistake that goes against their self-image of being a good person they can release themselves from their guilt and forgive themselves. They've learned to be comfortable with being selfish when it's called for. They become helpful and supportive without needing that to score points with themselves.
    I was ambiguous about a lot of stuff here...
    I don't think you're a two. There's not enough bolded stuff there, and the parts you did bold could certainly fit with other types as well (a lot of it fits me too, actually, and I'm certainly not a two).

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    I also should mention that, as a kid, I was a bit arrogant in some ways... I was "the smart kid" in my classroom and felt "special" ; I made a specific distinction between "weird" and "eccentric" (no kidding, I used that word ). Even after that physics wiz usurped my position proved himself smarter than me, I prided myself in being quiet and bookish, always reading during recess. College has kind of... clipped my wings.
    This sounds very five-ish (4w5 is possible as well, but leaning more toward 5). What do you think about this description, especially the levels of development?

  5. #175
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    I don't think you're a two. There's not enough bolded stuff there, and the parts you did bold could certainly fit with other types as well (a lot of it fits me too, actually, and I'm certainly not a two).
    Yeah, I thought so... Like I said, I can't see myself as a caretaker, though it might just be my young age.

    Do you want me to do that to the other descriptions on that page? Or would that make this thread even more obnoxiously long?

    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    This sounds very five-ish (4w5 is possible as well, but leaning more toward 5). What do you think about this description, especially the levels of development?
    Let's see:

    Type Five exemplifies the human desire to understand, to look beneath the surface of things, and to arrive at deeper insights about reality. Fives prefer the life of the mind, both as a way of understanding the world and—given the unlimited power of imagination—as a way of escaping from aspects of reality. It would not be farfetched to say that for many Fives, the inner world of the mind and the imagination is more real and vivid than the external world. Fives tend to have an experience and then spend many hours, days—even years—understanding it and its broader context. Fives are also highly innovative and inventive. They love "tinkering around," playing with concepts and overturning the accepted ways of doing things. This can produce extremely valuable, practical, and original works and discoveries or simply entertain them for many hours with no practical results.


    Fives are truly the most independent and idiosyncratic of the personality types, the people who could most appropriately be called "loners" and "misfits." They are people who truly march to a different drummer, pursuing their interests and curiosity wherever their investigations may take them. Some Fives can seem downright odd to people while others keep their "weirdness" more below the surface. In either case, Fives are intensely determined to pursue the questions and ideas that fascinate them: so much so that relationships and financial considerations can become unimportant to them.

    These qualities result from an extraordinary ability to focus their attention. Fives will stay with a problem or a question that fascinates them until it is solved, or until they discover that it is unsolvable. Boredom is unimaginable to them because there are so many fascinating things to explore, understand, and imagine. The downside is that their capacity for concentration enables them to get deeply engrossed in their complex inner worlds, sometimes to the extent that they forget their surroundings or even to take care of themselves.

    Thus, Fives can get involved in work, reading, or in their own thoughts in such depth that they are often late for meetings and don't hear phone calls. They forget to eat or to take adequate care of themselves physically. They will live on soda and candy bars, or stay up all night writing a story or trying to solve an interesting problem. They will pour over the computer terminal for hours, or disappear into the stacks of the local library, only to emerge five minutes before closing with an armload of books as they head to the nearest coffee shop to continue reading.

    But this doesn't mean that Fives always want to be alone or that they can't be excellent company when they are with others. When Fives find someone whose intelligence and interest they respect, they are invariably talkative and sociable. Fives love to share their insights and expertise with just about anyone who appreciates what they have to say. They also enjoy sharing their findings with others, and their observations of life's contradictions and absurdities are often served up with a whimsical sense of humor. Fives can be the most enriching of friends since they are a treasure trove of information, speculation, opinions, and intensely felt ideas. But they can also be the most impenetrable of enigmas, a mind bristling with energy and intelligence that signals "Stay away! Leave me alone to follow my thoughts wherever they may lead!" Fives are the kind of people others usually find strange, quirky, and intriguing—they always have more going on than meets the eye.

    In brief, Fives want to understand reality, to possess knowledge, to find a niche for themselves that others have not explored, to be free to explore their own inner worlds, to have sufficient solitude and time for their projects, to feel confident and capable, and to unsettle the unquestioned certainties of others. Fives do not want to feel uninformed or incapable, to have their competency questioned, to accept easy answers, to be intruded on (or "managed"), to be forced to respond before they feel ready, to suffer the ignorance of others, or to ask for help.

    Their Hidden Side
    Day for day, socially adept Fives probably spend more time by themselves than any other type. Nonetheless, Fives need companionship and connection as so all human beings. The problem is that Fives fear needing the affection and warmth of others. It as if they feel that to ask for anything from others is to risk a greater imposition on their own freedom and independence. They also believe that their own needs are so intense that if they were ever expressed or even acknowledged, they would be too much for others. In some cases, they may even believe that their needs would actually harm others. Deep down, all Fives really want to find someone safe to connect with, but they fear that doing so will cost them whatever degree of competency and self-reliance they have attained. If troubled Fives feel that their area of mastery or their independence is at risk, they may retreat from a relationship—even if they truly love the person they are leaving.
    Type 5 descriptions are a mixed bag for me. You see, the trouble is, partly, that I don't feel particularly "scientific" or "contentious"; the arrogance I described was more about having my bookishness thought of as "weird" than actually thinking I was smarter than anyone else. I sometimes feel as if everyone pities Poor Little Viridian ("he's such a nice kid, but he's so shy and quiet!"); it's been like that since high school, when people didn't give me a lot of flack for being bad at sports and absent-minded - they were friendly towards me in a different way they were towards each other, I think. Also, I had a bit of a "rule-bound" streak, so I kind of avoided more "disruptive" endeavors.

    As for levels of development, I dunno... I don't think I have great insights or ideas; in fact, the reason I feel so out of place in my university is that everything is about analyzing and deconstructing the society we live in... I don't know if I can be as detached as them about all this iconoclasm.

    I can't see myself as an expert. Hell, I can't quite see myself as anything.

  6. #176
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    Hmmmmm, perhpas 2 and 5 aren't part of your tritype then , what about the 6, 9, 4, 3, and 1 descriptions (you don't have to bold/cross things if you don't want to btw)?

  7. #177
    Senior Member Silveresque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Yeah, I thought so... Like I said, I can't see myself as a caretaker, though it might just be my young age.

    Do you want me to do that to the other descriptions on that page? Or would that make this thread even more obnoxiously long?
    Don't worry about the thread being long. I don't think you have to do it for all the types. The main ones I'm thinking of right now as possibilities are 4, 5, 6, and 9 (actually, 3 might be a possibility as well). It might help to do those ones (except 5, since you just did that), but I think for now it might be better to consider distinctions between those types. From what I've heard, 9's have a hard time recognizing their own needs and don't strive to find their "true self" like a 4 would. 5's are more detached from their emotions than 4's are and fear getting overwhelmed by them, while 4's welcome their emotions. Well, that's all I've got right now. Unfortunately, I don't know a whole lot about 6's or 3's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Type 5 descriptions are a mixed bag for me. You see, the trouble is, partly, that I don't feel particularly "scientific" or "contentious"; the arrogance I described was more about having my bookishness thought of as "weird" than actually thinking I was smarter than anyone else. I sometimes feel as if everyone pities Poor Little Viridian ("he's such a nice kid, but he's so shy and quiet!"); it's been like that since high school, when people didn't give me a lot of flack for being bad at sports and absent-minded - they were friendly towards me in a different way they were towards each other, I think. Also, I had a bit of a "rule-bound" streak, so I kind of avoided more "disruptive" endeavors.

    As for levels of development, I dunno... I don't think I have great insights or ideas; in fact, the reason I feel so out of place in my university is that everything is about analyzing and deconstructing the society we live in... I don't know if I can be as detached as them about all this iconoclasm.

    I can't see myself as an expert. Hell, I can't quite see myself as anything.
    I agree it's a mixed bag. How about this: How do you want to be? What is your ideal image that you strive for? What is keeping you from being that person?

  8. #178
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Hmmmmm, perhpas 2 and 5 aren't part of your tritype then , what about the 6, 9, 4, 3, and 1 descriptions (you don't have to bold/cross things if you don't want to btw)?
    I'll do it as soon as I'm able to.

    Quote Originally Posted by RevlisZero View Post
    Don't worry about the thread being long. I don't think you have to do it for all the types. The main ones I'm thinking of right now as possibilities are 4, 5, 6, and 9 (actually, 3 might be a possibility as well). It might help to do those ones (except 5, since you just did that), but I think for now it might be better to consider distinctions between those types. From what I've heard, 9's have a hard time recognizing their own needs and don't strive to find their "true self" like a 4 would. 5's are more detached from their emotions than 4's are and fear getting overwhelmed by them, while 4's welcome their emotions. Well, that's all I've got right now. Unfortunately, I don't know a whole lot about 6's or 3's.



    I agree it's a mixed bag. How about this: How do you want to be? What is your ideal image that you strive for? What is keeping you from being that person?
    Well, I want to be a nice, if quiet, person, but, at the same time, I wonder whether that's the right thing to be - if I'm being nice, am I being compliant, am I being an enabler for something? I don't want to be a bad person, but I also don't want to moralize or preach or "educate" - that's not my thing, I think. I want to be kind of knowledgeable, but not necessarily contentious... I also want to be sensitive and a good friend.

    ...See what I mean about college? It's scrambling my mind, man! I don't know what makes one a good person anymore...


    Also, no way in hell I'm a Three. I enjoy my relative invisibility, even if I hate it when people interrupt me.

    Anyway, thank you for your input! Srsly, you dudes rock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Well, I want to be a nice, if quiet, person, but, at the same time, I wonder whether that's the right thing to be - if I'm being nice, am I being compliant, am I being an enabler for something? I don't want to be a bad person, but I also don't want to moralize or preach or "educate" - that's not my thing, I think. I want to be kind of knowledgeable, but not necessarily contentious... I also want to be sensitive and a good friend.

    ...See what I mean about college? It's scrambling my mind, man! I don't know what makes one a good person anymore...
    This is taken from the "Habitual Avoidance" thread by Vagrant Farce:
    - 1s strive to be perfect, and striving to be excited (7) can seem like wanting to be irresponsible and fool-hardy.
    - 2s strive to be connected, and striving to be unique (4) can seem like wanting to be selfish and isolating.
    - 3s strive to be outstanding, and striving to be secure (6) can seem like wanting to be lazy and mediocre.
    - 4s strive to be unique, and striving to be perfect (1) can seem like wanting to be stifled and repressed.
    - 5s strive to be detached, and striving to be powerful (8) can seem like wanting to be out of control and overwhelming.
    - 6s strive to be secure, and striving to be peaceful (9) can seem like wanting to be passive and unguarded.
    - 7s strive to be excited, and striving to be detached (5) can seem like wanting to be dull and boring.
    - 8s strive to be powerful, and striving to be connected (2) can seem like wanting to be weak and dependant on others.
    - 9s strive to be peaceful, and striving to be outstanding (3) can seem like wanting to be arrogant and demanding.
    What you've said sounds very 9-ish to me.

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    Senior Member Vizzy's Avatar
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    Yeah, don't worry about the thread's length. That ship has sailed long ago, so let's make the most of it. Let's see how long we can keep you confused about your type.



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