My answers to Limit's questionnaire

[Silveresque]

But I thought all Fi users were full of magic and poetry and were only sad because people didn't understand them!

(That's actually what I thought not too long ago. )

Going through the motions can be a bit bothersome if it takes too long, I agree. But I feel the need to be nice to those that extend me favors or are pleasant towards me (e.g. parents' friends that invite my family over for dinner).

That might be more Fe then. I'll play the nice role when I'm expected to, but I don't go out of my way to be extra nice unless I genuinely care. In the situation you just described, where does your feeling the need to be nice come from? Is it more like genuine caring or dutiful courtesy?

 

[Viridian]

That might be more Fe then. I'll play the nice role when I'm expected to, but I don't go out of my way to be extra nice unless I genuinely care. In the situation you just described, where does your feeling the need to be nice come from? Is it more like genuine caring or dutiful courtesy?

It depends on the case. In the dinner scenario I described, it would be more out of duty and courtesy (besides not being a spoiled brat that keeps nagging his folks to go home ). Doesn't make it so much "fake" as "requiring a bit of effort, but not that big a deal", right? Or does it?

Then again, I suffer quite a bit from "Fe-tardation" (sorry for the ableist language)... Like how, just yesterday, I was too spaced out to realize I should have offered my spot in a bench to a woman next to me and her little kid.

 

[Glycerine]

Fe=/=socially smooth. lol I should know. I would say I'm socially awkward and one of most socially oblivious people I know is an ESFJ. Fe is not a slave to social rules (as much as the ridiculous stereotype keeps getting perpetuated). It can be very individualistic in the sense that the person chooses what ones they care about.

 

[Viridian]

Fe=/=socially smooth. lol I should know. I would say I'm socially awkward and one of most socially oblivious people I know is an ESFJ. Fe is not a slave to social rules (as much as the ridiculous stereotype keeps getting perpetuated). It can be very individualistic in the sense that the person chooses what ones they care about.

I think I'm getting your drift, Glycerine... My ESFJ dad can be pretty, let's say, oblivious. One minute he's lecturing me on how not to "look/sound weird" and be more inviting to people, the next one he's telling the tollbooth lady, "Say, there sure are a lot of tollbooths along the way, uh? It's bleeding me dry, I tell ya! ".

I can be pretty oblivious myself, but in a very different way - whereas he's too chatty and assumes everyone understands what he means, I'm a bit spacey and uncommunicative and kinda awkward in a dorky way.

It's strange, to think of myself as an ISFJ in the Internet age. Still, given my reluctance to buy one of those newfangled "Blackberries", it might just be possible.

 

[Asterion]

You know you're an I right, and I'm guessing that you know you're an S? So on the outside (to everyone else) are you more S or F? To me, you seem more F, which indicates that you're probably an F dom = Fi (because you're an introvert), which means you're an ISFP.

If that doesn't work, then you should look at the P/J dichotomy, which is straight forward, unlike cognitive functions.

 

[strychnine]

You know you're an I right, and I'm guessing that you know you're an S? So on the outside (to everyone else) are you more S or F? To me, you seem more F, which indicates that you're probably an F dom = Fi (because you're an introvert), which means you're an ISFP.

I have seen this line of reasoning before... but if one appears more F on the outside, one might actually be an Fe user, even an introverted one (IFJ). I think some Fi ppl can appear more Te on the outside. Te/Fe are the e attitudes after all.

*shrug*

 

[Asterion]

I have seen this line of reasoning before... but if one appears more F on the outside, one might actually be an Fe user, even an introverted one (IFJ). I think some Fi ppl can appear more Te on the outside. Te/Fe are the e attitudes after all.

*shrug*

How the hell would an Fi dom seem Te... unless they are anime freaks and trying to be super tsundere and discussing in depth topics with people . Introverts will step forward with their dominant, the auxiliary will come out when the dominant isn't suited. Like, I will get on the bus in the morning, start talking to friends, and lead the conversation into Ti analytical mode, then when that becomes exhausted, Ne starts mixing everything together, and then Ti comes back. An ISFJ may start a conversation with Si details and comparisons and then slowly turn on the charm. An ISFP will likely go through some small talk and when they open up, try to head towards a topic of worth to them, and then turn towards the present moment. Just half guessing/half observing, I'm somewhat sure the ISFJ one is right, I have a good mate that does this all the time, but I don't know many ISFPs well enough to get past the social mask... I do know INFPs that do something like this though.

 

[Viridian]

You know you're an I right, and I'm guessing that you know you're an S? So on the outside (to everyone else) are you more S or F? To me, you seem more F, which indicates that you're probably an F dom = Fi (because you're an introvert), which means you're an ISFP.

If that doesn't work, then you should look at the P/J dichotomy, which is straight forward, unlike cognitive functions.

Heya, dude, long time no see! :hi:

Well, it's trickier when you're an introvert, since your dominant function might be Feeling and the auxilliary - which most people see at first glance - might be Intuition, for example.

I have seen this line of reasoning before... but if one appears more F on the outside, one might actually be an Fe user, even an introverted one (IFJ). I think some Fi ppl can appear more Te on the outside. Te/Fe are the e attitudes after all.

*shrug*

A-yup. Though I hear some INFJs can appear quite cold at first glance.

Also, keep in mind, I'm not as emotionally expressive IRL as I am online... I've been accused of being curt on occasion.

 

[strychnine]

How the hell would an Fi dom seem Te... unless they are anime freaks and trying to be super tsundere and discussing in depth topics with people . Introverts will step forward with their dominant, the auxiliary will come out when the dominant isn't suited. Like, I will get on the bus in the morning, start talking to friends, and lead the conversation into Ti analytical mode, then when that becomes exhausted, Ne starts mixing everything together, and then Ti comes back. An ISFJ may start a conversation with Si details and comparisons and then slowly turn on the charm. An ISFP will likely go through some small talk and when they open up, try to head towards a topic of worth to them, and then turn towards the present moment. Just half guessing/half observing, I'm somewhat sure the ISFJ one is right, I have a good mate that does this all the time, but I don't know many ISFPs well enough to get past the social mask... I do know INFPs that do something like this though.

To extravert anything at all -- to interact with the external world in any way at all -- you need to use your e functions. IPs will primarily extravert Pe, of course.

I said "some Fi ppl can appear more Te on the outside." Note the word "appear". ISFPs and INFPs I've seen "look" like Ts. They have a distinct "Fi voice" which is sort of monotone-ish, unlike the Fe voice (shows up even in TPs) that is more... sing-songy(?) to engage the listener.

You can see this with nfgeeks: http://www.youtube.com/nfgeeks
The ENFP (Te) tends to have a straight mouth like :| no matter what he's saying. Whereas the INFJ (Fe) varies his facial expression and voice pitch more.

IME ISFJs don't let you into their Si at all until you know them well. FJs do indeed seem Fe; I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that TPs seem Fe as well, much like FPs seem Te.

 

[Viridian]

Here's something interesting I recently tried...

I asked a family member to look at some of the Enneagram fixations and try to pinpoint which one she felt fit me best. She looked at all but the 3, 7 and 8 profiles, which do not fit me at all.

She said that, as a child/young teenager - i.e. before I entered university - I was quite a lot like a Five, very curious and inquisitive; I had this huge book about the Zodiac I constantly read and tried to understand everything about it. I also had a phase - that was not entirely inconsequential - where I was very interested in mystery novels, and constantly read them during recesses/breaks at school (circa 15 years old?). However, when I became an university student, I became more skittish, insecure and neurotic like a (unhealthy) Six.

It makes me wonder whether I am in too undeveloped/conflicted a stage to have a definitive type yet... Do you suppose that is the case?

 

[Silveresque]

Here's something interesting I recently tried...

I asked a family member to look at some of the Enneagram fixations and try to pinpoint which one she felt fit me best. She looked at all but the 3, 7 and 8 profiles, which do not fit me at all.

She said that, as a child/young teenager - i.e. before I entered university - I was quite a lot like a Five, very curious and inquisitive; I had this huge book about the Zodiac I constantly read and tried to understand everything about it. I also had a phase - that was not entirely inconsequential - where I was very interested in mystery novels, and constantly read them during recesses/breaks at school (circa 15 years old?). However, when I became an university student, I became more skittish, insecure and neurotic like a (unhealthy) Six.

It makes me wonder whether I am in too undeveloped/conflicted a stage to have a definitive type yet... Do you suppose that is the case?

This sounds kind of like my case. I used to be a lot more interested in collecting knowledge when I was younger. For example, I went through a phase where I was interested in birds and liked learning about different species and trying to identify them. Then I went into a phase where I thought I wanted to be a scientist, so I took four science classes in 8th grade...and then found out I suck at science. And then I discovered foreign languages and, well, you get where I'm going with this. Anyways, it's possible I could be a 5 who gave up prematurely on the quest for mastery (if that's even possible), but I don't think that's the case. I think it was just that I was going to 9's security point at 3. Every 9 wants to be special and wants recognition, though they usually don't express this need and aren't always aware of it. Maybe this need led me to want to become an expert at something. At least, that's my interpretation. So maybe it's the same for you?

 

[Viridian]

This sounds kind of like my case. I used to be a lot more interested in collecting knowledge when I was younger. For example, I went through a phase where I was interested in birds and liked learning about different species and trying to identify them. Then I went into a phase where I thought I wanted to be a scientist, so I took four science classes in 8th grade...and then found out I suck at science. And then I discovered foreign languages and, well, you get where I'm going with this. Anyways, it's possible I could be a 5 who gave up prematurely on the quest for mastery (if that's even possible), but I don't think that's the case. I think it was just that I was going to 9's security point at 3. Every 9 wants to be special and wants recognition, though they usually don't express this need and aren't always aware of it. Maybe this need led me to want to become an expert at something. At least, that's my interpretation. So maybe it's the same for you?

It's hard to say... I mean, I focus a lot more nowadays on avoiding failure than in achieving success, although I was a pretty diligent kid back in the day - a teacher's pet, so to speak, in some cases.

A lot of my interests, past and present, have a less stereotypically Fiveish bent to them, I'll admit - I was more interested in TV shows*, video games, zodiac signs and whatnot than birds, bugs, physics (although I did have an interest in layman's terms quantum physics a few years back) or science fiction. I also feel a bit "disconnected" to my university's intellectual pursuits - the other students seem much more detached than me...

* Black Hole High was one of my favorites.

 

[Silveresque]

It's hard to say... I mean, I focus a lot more nowadays on avoiding failure than in achieving success, although I was a pretty diligent kid back in the day - a teacher's pet, so to speak, in some cases.

A lot of my interests, past and present, have a less stereotypically Fiveish bent to them, I'll admit - I was more interested in TV shows*, video games, zodiac signs and whatnot than birds, bugs, physics (although I did have an interest in layman's terms quantum physics a few years back) or science fiction. I also feel a bit "disconnected" to my university's intellectual pursuits - the other students seem much more detached than me...

* Black Hole High was one of my favorites.

Yeah, I had mostly less intellectual interests as well *cough, video games*, so I can relate pretty well. Who knows, we could both be 5's. At any rate, I get the feeling we're probably the same type, whatever it is.

Though I wonder...what exactly do you mean when you say the other students are more detached than you?

 

[Viridian]

Yeah, I had mostly less intellectual interests as well *cough, video games*, so I can relate pretty well. Who knows, we could both be 5's. At any rate, I get the feeling we're probably the same type, whatever it is.

Yeah, I think we're eerily similar in some aspects.

Though I wonder...what exactly do you mean when you say the other students are more detached than you?

Not afraid of being cynical. Of being "that guy". Of pointing out the elephant in the living room. Of discussing things that evoke certain anxieties from me, so to speak.

It's not even brutal honesty per se... It's like a TED talk: whatever is being discussed is discussed with a general atmosphere of matter-of-factness and occasional dry criticism, but no meekness, no sadness, no melancholy. I suppose it would be incongruous within the scholarly yet informal atmosphere.

Am I making any sense?

 

[Silveresque]

Yeah, I think we're eerily similar in some aspects.



Not afraid of being cynical. Of being "that guy". Of pointing out the elephant in the living room. Of discussing things that evoke certain anxieties from me, so to speak.

It's not even brutal honesty per se... It's like a TED talk: whatever is being discussed is discussed with a general atmosphere of matter-of-factness and occasional dry criticism, but no meekness, no sadness, no melancholy. I suppose it would be incongruous within the scholarly yet informal atmosphere.

Am I making any sense?

I totally get what you mean about not wanting to be cynical. In fact, I just decided not to post something I was about to post in my blog about ten minutes ago because I was worried it would sound too cynical. I just don't want to be seen as a negative or complaining person.

But I'm not sure I can relate to the second part. Maybe I just haven't been in that situation with the classes I'm taking. I'm taking general classes like biology and sociology and Spanish, so I don't see where emotion would come in. Though I do think emotion makes things more interesting and meaningful in general.

^Or were you referring to social situations in general rather than classes? If you were, I still can't relate. I honestly don't get out much.

 

[Nicodemus]

I was worried it would sound too cynical. I just don't want to be seen as a negative or complaining person.

This is very cute.

 

[Viridian]

I totally get what you mean about not wanting to be cynical. In fact, I just decided not to post something I was about to post in my blog about ten minutes ago because I was worried it would sound too cynical. I just don't want to be seen as a negative or complaining person.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with a little melancholy. You've been going through some unpleasant emotional states, it's perfectly normal. I do hope I haven't been going "poor you!" too much, though.

But I'm not sure I can relate to the second part. Maybe I just haven't been in that situation with the classes I'm taking. I'm taking general classes like biology and sociology and Spanish, so I don't see where emotion would come in. Though I do think emotion makes things more interesting and meaningful in general.

Er, yes, I didn't express myself very well here. Basically, they're exposing everything as a giant farce, including the profession we're supposedly going to be in; and I can't help but think, "Then what the hell am I doing here? And what do you want me to take from this class?". It all stirs up my anxieties, but they seem to do pretty well at debating it dispassionately - maybe that makes them better academics than me.

I can't tell the difference between dry cynicism and intelligence anymore. Seeking solutions to problems, rather than dissecting the society we live in, is tantamount to naivete, I suppose...




Er, I'm getting kinda off-topic, I guess... I'd also like to know what the other think about my little experiment, if they're willing to share.

 

[Viridian]

Well, since this thread wasn't long enough, I'll answer a few 6/9 questions RevlisZero has provided me on the Video Challenge thread!

What happens when you get angry?

I try to think straight, even though it's pretty obvious I'm feeling bitter. Sometimes I can be unaware of how angry I can sound even when I don't realize it. However, like I said before, I get less "angry" and more "icy", "terse", "curt", "neurotic", "irritated" or "obsessive-compulsive".

I can also get a bit pouty if people don't take me seriously or mock me. I may be modest, but I do tend to take myself a bit too seriously.

How do you react to stress?

I try to just rub my temples and focus on what I have to do (or, at least, on something else). When it gets really bad, it can be impossible to concentrate on anything else, though. Sometimes I try to lie down for a bit (without sleeping). I also feel a bit ashamed when I get stressed and bum those around me - I have no right to get others into my funk like that.

Do you tend to trust people or be suspicious?

I don't exactly distrust them, but I have some slightly rigid expectations of privacy (I don't see you inputting your password, you don't see me doing it) and can be wary of talking to strangers in the street. Then again, that message was prety much hammered by cartoons back then.

I don't often imagine people will backstab me, but I also avoid the spotlight partly to avoid making enemies. I'm not used to having people who hate me...

How do feel about expressing disagreement? Is it more your tendency to go along in order to get along, or do you sometimes enjoy playing devil's advocate?

I sometimes do play devil's advocate, but I try not to sound too oppositional and more inquisitive - I've had my "caught you red-handed!" moments. However, I prefer to do so in smaller, more familiar groups, and avoid sounding judgmental (partly because I'm sensitive to criticism myself).

 

[Silveresque]

I try to think straight, even though it's pretty obvious I'm feeling bitter. Sometimes I can be unaware of how angry I can sound even when I don't realize it. However, like I said before, I get less "angry" and more "icy", "terse", "curt", "neurotic", "irritated" or "obsessive-compulsive".

I can also get a bit pouty if people don't take me seriously or mock me. I may be modest, but I do tend to take myself a bit too seriously.

Leaning toward 9.

From Enneagram Institute:

And just as important, when Nines are aggressive, angry, or anxious, they manifest these traits in distinctively "Nine-ish" ways. For example, they express anger as a "coolness" toward the person they are angry with—while denying that they are at all angry. Even rather severe outbursts of aggression can erupt suddenly and subside quickly.

From The Enneagram Blogspot: (this one is for 9w8, but close enough)

Often don't hear their voices when angry. Can have a sharp, grating edge. May be slow to anger and then explode. Or angry but don't know it; may confuse being assertive with being rude.

There's also a thread on Personality Cafe about 6's and anger. They seem generally a bit more willing to let their anger show, and when they do try to hide it, it often comes out in the form of snappiness and sarcasm. Both 6's and 9's often express their anger in passive aggressive ways, so in that way they can seem similar. But I think 6's are generally more comfortable being angry.

I try to just rub my temples and focus on what I have to do (or, at least, on something else). When it gets really bad, it can be impossible to concentrate on anything else, though. Sometimes I try to lie down for a bit (without sleeping). I also feel a bit ashamed when I get stressed and bum those around me - I have no right to get others into my funk like that.

Leaning (possibly) toward 6. I'd imagine 6's become focused on whatever is making them stressed or anxious in order to deal with it, whereas 9's sometimes have a hard time staying focused and don't like to think about unpleasant things. I know when I'm really stressed out I tend to shut down and become unable to get anything done until I finally force myself (with great effort) to do it. It's so much easier to just stop thinking about whatever is making me stressed and anxious and just deal with it later, so I have a tendency to procrastinate on such things. Could just be me, though...

EDIT: I found this on Personality Cafe's Freudian Theory of the Enneagram:

To Avoid Disintegration: In tough situations, don't let the stress paralyze you. Because Type 9s are constantly mediating their id, superego and the outside world, they may succumb to simply "shutting down" when it gets too hard. Don't withdraw like that; power through it.

Whaddaya know, it's not just me.

I don't exactly distrust them, but I have some slightly rigid expectations of privacy (I don't see you inputting your password, you don't see me doing it) and can be wary of talking to strangers in the street. Then again, that message was prety much hammered by cartoons back then.

I don't often imagine people will backstab me, but I also avoid the spotlight partly to avoid making enemies. I'm not used to having people who hate me...

Leaning toward 9. I relate to that very much. 9's may be trusting and see people as generally good, but that doesn't mean they have to be trusting to a fault. A healthy amount of caution and suspicion is a good thing. I think most 6's usually have more to say about their doubts and suspicions, since that's one of their most defining characteristics.

I sometimes do play devil's advocate, but I try not to sound too oppositional and more inquisitive - I've had my "caught you red-handed!" moments. However, I prefer to do so in smaller, more familiar groups, and avoid sounding judgmental (partly because I'm sensitive to criticism myself).

Could go either way, though it sounds like you have a tendency to sugarcoat things to avoid offending people, which is characteristic of 9's.

 

[Viridian]

Leaning toward 9.

From Enneagram Institute:


From The Enneagram Blogspot: (this one is for 9w8, but close enough)


There's also a thread on Personality Cafe about 6's and anger. They seem generally a bit more willing to let their anger show, and when they do try to hide it, it often comes out in the form of snappiness and sarcasm. Both 6's and 9's often express their anger in passive aggressive ways, so in that way they can seem similar. But I think 6's are generally more comfortable being angry.

Well, to be more precise, I often refrain from expressing anger - partly due to not wanting to hurt feelings or cause a quarrel, partly because I might regret it later - and boy, do I hate eating crow. I am also concerned that I should feel (or at least pretend to feel) this or that, because I lack a good sense of what is appropriate; for example: "Should I feel like my schedule is too busy, or is that like the normal schedule of an adult human being?". You get what I mean?

Leaning (possibly) toward 6. I'd imagine 6's become focused on whatever is making them stressed or anxious in order to deal with it, whereas 9's sometimes have a hard time staying focused and don't like to think about unpleasant things. I know when I'm really stressed out I tend to shut down and become unable to get anything done until I finally force myself (with great effort) to do it. It's so much easier to just stop thinking about whatever is making me stressed and anxious and just deal with it later, so I have a tendency to procrastinate on such things. Could just be me, though...

It's kind of a blend to me. I can dwell on my negative feelings (as in, stewing), but I'm reticent about actually telling other people about them (though I guess I do give off some unconscious clues). I can become robotic and hopelessly dependent ("What do you think about this? What should I do? Where should we go? Should I be feeling like this?") - the more bitter I feel, the more overt, in-your-face and obvious the desperation becomes.

Leaning toward 9. I relate to that very much. 9's may be trusting and see people as generally good, but that doesn't mean they have to be trusting to a fault. A healthy amount of caution and suspicion is a good thing. I think most 6's usually have more to say about their doubts and suspicions, since that's one of their most defining characteristics.

I'm uncertain and neurotic mostly about myself, the feelings I cause in others and my future, rather than other people being suspicious or not...

Could go either way, though it sounds like you have a tendency to sugarcoat things to avoid offending people, which is characteristic of 9's.

Ha, actually, I can be pretty catastrophic sometimes, although I'm hardly the guy who "sours the juice" (except when I'm being pouty and grumpy, in which case I'm more indifferent than anything).