Am I ISTJ or ESFP?

[strychnine]

IxTJ and ExFP are the only options I'm looking at, since my middle functions are definitely Fi-Te or Te-Fi. I have cognitive dissonance when making decisions, which probably means I have a strong tertiary and it's interfering with my auxiliary. Every thought seems to be a tug of war. It has been causing me anxiety. I recently asked my parents about my childhood to try and determine which J function developed first, but I got no information of value. (They just said I didn't crawl, and liked to sit in one place and stare at things, oh and I would come up with strange explanations for everyday phenomena, and I was uncoordinated they say.) My own memories are too blurred and they aren't stored in chronological order so I have no idea how old I was at each memory. And I have had this cognitive dissonance for a long time now... I'm 20, and I've had it for at least 7 years, and I don't remember whether I was more Fi or more Te before that.

Anyway, it's narrowed down to ISTJ and ESFP because I don't understand what Ne and Ni are, which probably means I don't use them. The more I read about Se and Si the more they blur into one. So I'm going to ask that no one post function descriptions unless you think I would not have seen them before, i.e. they are not readily available on the internet. Is it possible to ask me some open-ended questions, and guess my type using the answers? (If not, that's fine, and in that case please post descriptions!)

Also, my enneagram type is listed as 5w6, but it could just as easily be 7w8 or 7w6, (so don't use that as the basis for MBTI type).

Thanks!

 

[Savage Idealist]

So your unsure os Si and Se, and you want no descriptions. K then, this seems a little challenging then usual, but I'll help!

Oh open ended questions, good idea!

OK, what's you desicion process in life like, for example how do you primarily interact, think, and respond to the world?

 

[skylights]

well, i'll write you some descriptions of how Ne and Ni work and how they relate to S - not what their end results are. maybe that can help some. i knew i was Ne dom immediately upon reading function descriptions, but it took me a really long time to begin to understand Ni because no one really explained its process. until uumlau and orobas and some others worked on explaining it in Ne/Ni threads

so, as far as i understand:

Ne is more like making associations - eg "tree" and "blue" are similar because they both relate to water, relate to life. it has to do with their static qualities. (like relation via aristotle's material cause and formal cause). you can see how Ne relies on Si because it depends on permanent solid characteristics being assigned to things. trees are alive; water is blue. Ne sifts through those qualities and finds the ones that are similar. it tends to "branch out" - given one point it makes 30 associations, then it could make 30 more from each of those associations, and so on - and allows the user to quickly connect things that seem to have no connections, to make new reinterpretations and relationships. i call it my "loophole function" cause it helps me get out of tight situations!

i understand Ni less, but as far as i do get it, i think Ni is more like "whittling down" - eg seeing how a woman and a tree are similar because they both give birth to new life. it has to do with dynamic actions - what things do. (like relation via aristotle's efficient and final causes.) Ni distills things into basic ideas, and then it allows the user to see those basic ideas all around in life. that's how Ni relies on Se - it depends on Se to observe those basic relationships in the dynamic environment. Ni is less explicit because it relies on internal amalgamation and juxtaposition, as opposed to Ne's external linking.

then, in reverse, Si depends on Ne because Si needs "idea space" to hold all of its definitions - there's no point in having qualities if things don't relate. otherwise we'd just have a billion gazillion descriptors for each single thing, and each word would mean nothing - but as it is, we can say "blue", and a whole category of things spring to mind.

and Se depends on Ni because otherwise everything would be totally new and lack a greater context.

i think.

feel free to correct me if i'm off, everyone, especially with Ni and Se.

 

[Cimarron]

Hah, to me, Se and Si can blur together if you think about it, but they're very different, no doubt. I see the question vitally coming down to "how good are you at thinking on your feet? Dealing with unforeseen events off the cuff / as they come, in a split second, making it natural?" Se is good at that, and Si tends not to be.

When a bunch of unforeseen stuff gets thrown at me, and I'm told I must make a split second decision, I pretty much kind of freeze up. "Wait, don't I get to think about this first? Wait, I don't even know where I should start! Woah, where did this come from?"

 

[/DG/]

Si is usually rooted in the past. It relies on past experiences and memories and relates them to what's going on now.

Se is in the present. It takes things at face value and appreciates them for what they are. Se can also be a bit impulsive.

 

[strychnine]

Hah, to me, Se and Si can blur together if you think about it, but they're very different, no doubt. I see the question vitally coming down to "how good are you at thinking on your feet? Dealing with unforeseen events off the cuff / as they come, in a split second, making it natural?" Se is good at that, and Si tends not to be.

When a bunch of unforeseen stuff gets thrown at me, and I'm told I must make a split second decision, I pretty much kind of freeze up. "Wait, don't I get to think about this first? Wait, I don't even know where I should start! Woah, where did this come from?"

I'm definitely good at dealing with unforeseen things, but it depends almost completely on what thing it is. I cannot physically maneuver around things* (in the literal sense). On the other hand, I can maneuver around situations with words... for example, I can lie. I'm not good at speaking usually but when forced to, I can lie with the best of them. I have gotten out of really sticky situations by coming up with some elaborate story, or by making up events to illustrate a principle about myself.

I find that if I prepare ahead of time, I usually end up scrapping my plan and improvising.

*I think my lack of physical coordination makes it look like I don't have Se.

Si is usually rooted in the past. It relies on past experiences and memories and relates them to what's going on now.

Se is in the present. It takes things at face value and appreciates them for what they are. Se can also be a bit impulsive.

I definitely don't rely on memory -- I don't have much of it. And I think reliance on past experience is antithetical to improvisation, which I prefer. But I'm also not really 'in the moment', even when I actually try to be. Also, I overthink everything before doing, so I'm probably not impulsive. If I'm walking down the street and I see a store that might be interesting, I think about whether or not to go in for like 5 whole minutes before moving physically.

I'm both deliberate and spontaneous.... huh. :/

(I'll answer other people in a moment)

 

[strychnine]

So your unsure os Si and Se, and you want no descriptions. K then, this seems a little challenging then usual, but I'll help!

Oh open ended questions, good idea!

OK, what's you desicion process in life like, for example how do you primarily interact, think, and respond to the world?

Haha, sorry about that, but thanks for helping.

It's hard to say how I interact... Something I've found strange after finding out about JCF (I wouldn't think it strange otherwise) is that I do perceive the pattern more than the instance. For example, I'll understand something as happening "all the time", but when asked to point to a specific instance, I won't be able to remember one. But I didn't pull the "all the time" happening out of my ass! It really does happen! But I can never remember a specific instance. If this happens with one of my "theories" and I get questioned about it by someone, I will make up instances without remorse, just to get the other person to back off. After all, I know I'm not lying about the "theory" so what's the difference?

Perceiving the pattern first may sound more Ne than Se, but it's pretty much the only Ne trait I have, which leads me to believe that I'm not an NP.

(FTR I think having one's own "theories" is Ji consolidation of experience. It doesn't matter which Pe is used.)

Oh I know! I should make a video! I think ESFP and ISTJ would vibe VERY differently, so people would be able to tell from a video.

 

[strychnine]

...

feel free to correct me if i'm off, everyone, especially with Ni and Se.

Thanks for this post! So Ne tries to link things to one another until everything in the universe is linked (ideally), whereas Ni tries to distill things down and form one all-encompassing worldview.(?)

If I have a worldview at all, it's probably because of Ji making a web of what it takes away from my experiences. Like a collection of "take home messages" and what I can learn from life.

Because Ne or Ni would be my inferior function, I would go to it only in times of stress. My stress reaction involves a flood of bad memories coming back, memories where people say horrible things to me. They are real memories, but I don't access them much when relaxed/un-stressed. Then (when stressed) I start to use those memories as "evidence" for why I will never escape the roles that other people have cast me into, for example through stereotyping based on gender, race, etc. I develop a temporary investment in what other people think of me, but when un-stressed, I don't care about that at all. Does that sound more like inferior Ne or Ni? (Or something else? )

 

[Mal12345]

just as a shot in the near darkness - ISTP. Based on what you wrote below.

IxTJ and ExFP are the only options I'm looking at, since my middle functions are definitely Fi-Te or Te-Fi. I have cognitive dissonance when making decisions, which probably means I have a strong tertiary and it's interfering with my auxiliary. Every thought seems to be a tug of war. It has been causing me anxiety. I recently asked my parents about my childhood to try and determine which J function developed first, but I got no information of value. (They just said I didn't crawl, and liked to sit in one place and stare at things, oh and I would come up with strange explanations for everyday phenomena, and I was uncoordinated they say.) My own memories are too blurred and they aren't stored in chronological order so I have no idea how old I was at each memory. And I have had this cognitive dissonance for a long time now... I'm 20, and I've had it for at least 7 years, and I don't remember whether I was more Fi or more Te before that.

Anyway, it's narrowed down to ISTJ and ESFP because I don't understand what Ne and Ni are, which probably means I don't use them. The more I read about Se and Si the more they blur into one. So I'm going to ask that no one post function descriptions unless you think I would not have seen them before, i.e. they are not readily available on the internet. Is it possible to ask me some open-ended questions, and guess my type using the answers? (If not, that's fine, and in that case please post descriptions!)

Also, my enneagram type is listed as 5w6, but it could just as easily be 7w8 or 7w6, (so don't use that as the basis for MBTI type).

Thanks!

 

[Savage Idealist]

Originally posted by Strychnine
Haha, sorry about that, but thanks for helping.

It's hard to say how I interact... Something I've found strange after finding out about JCF (I wouldn't think it strange otherwise) is that I do perceive the pattern more than the instance. For example, I'll understand something as happening "all the time", but when asked to point to a specific instance, I won't be able to remember one. But I didn't pull the "all the time" happening out of my ass! It really does happen! But I can never remember a specific instance. If this happens with one of my "theories" and I get questioned about it by someone, I will make up instances without remorse, just to get the other person to back off. After all, I know I'm not lying about the "theory" so what's the difference?

Perceiving the pattern first may sound more Ne than Se, but it's pretty much the only Ne trait I have, which leads me to believe that I'm not an NP.

(FTR I think having one's own "theories" is Ji consolidation of experience. It doesn't matter which Pe is used.)

It's no trouble at all, I'm glad to help anyway, and the tougher it is to type someone, the more practice I'll get typing anyway

From what you said, sounds like Se if not Ne, I think.

Oh I know! I should make a video! I think ESFP and ISTJ would vibe VERY differently, so people would be able to tell from a video.

Oh great idea! I'd say go for it, videos can be extremely informative

 

[/DG/]

Also, I overthink everything before doing, so I'm probably not impulsive. If I'm walking down the street and I see a store that might be interesting, I think about whether or not to go in for like 5 whole minutes before moving physically.

Over-thinking something may just indicate that your Se is not dominant. I'm basing this off of my guess that all introverts have a tendency to over-think things.

According to what I've read on the internet, P's tend to be very indecisive. However, I don't think this necessary correlates to that, but instead I think you have to look at the reason that you are indecisive. Do you like keeping your options open or are you just trying to be sure you have made a good decision?

Based on your rejection of Si earlier, I'd be a bit tempted to call you some kind of ISP if you are indeed a sensor.

I agree that you should make a video though. ESFP's and ISTJ's are VERY different.

 

[strychnine]

just as a shot in the near darkness - ISTP. Based on what you wrote below.

Huh. I would agree but wrong judging functions and too much distance between them. I don't think inferior Fe could interfere so much with dominant Ti.

From what you said, sounds like Se if not Ne, I think.

Thanks, and yeah, I'll probably make that video today. (I'm scared lol)

Over-thinking something may just indicate that your Se is not dominant. I'm basing this off of my guess that all introverts have a tendency to over-think things.

You're probably right. Ji Se means, think first then act. Whereas Se doms think first much less of the time (of course they still have foresight).

According to what I've read on the internet, P's tend to be very indecisive. However, I don't think this necessary correlates to that, but instead I think you have to look at the reason that you are indecisive. Do you like keeping your options open or are you just trying to be sure you have made a good decision?

I'm scared of making the wrong decision, so I put off deciding, until that in itself is a decision because I run out of time. I let life happen to me instead of being decisive, and I hate that.

Based on your rejection of Si earlier, I'd be a bit tempted to call you some kind of ISP if you are indeed a sensor..

This is a good point. I seem to have A LOT of negative Si. I only see its dark side in myself, never the good things SJs (and INxPs, probably) seem to gain from it.

I agree that you should make a video though. ESFP's and ISTJ's are VERY different.

Indeed. Will do

 

[Mal12345]

Huh. I would agree but wrong judging functions and too much distance between them. I don't think inferior Fe could interfere so much with dominant Ti.

Well, if I was forced to choose between the two options you gave, I would have to go with ISTJ.

However, as for your analysis of Inferior Fe and Dominant Ti, Inferior traits can be quite disruptive - they are not just inferior. Inferior doesn't mean 'not in use', or 'pushed away', or just 'weak'. It means the troublesome aspects of the Fe come out during stressful times. One could say they are the unconscious cause of stress. In a sense, pushing down the inferior function to make room for dominant traits only makes them stronger and more troubling to overall psychological well-being.

 

[strychnine]

Well, if I was forced to choose between the two options you gave, I would have to go with ISTJ.

However, as for your analysis of Inferior Fe and Dominant Ti, Inferior traits can be quite disruptive - they are not just inferior. Inferior doesn't mean 'not in use', or 'pushed away', or just 'weak'. It means the troublesome aspects of the Fe come out during stressful times. One could say they are the unconscious cause of stress. In a sense, pushing down the inferior function to make room for dominant traits only makes them stronger and more troubling to overall psychological well-being.

Well, if there's enough evidence for Ti-Fe instead, I'll consider it.

"troublesome aspects of the Fe come out during stressful times"
That may well be true...

 

[/DG/]

I'm scared of making the wrong decision, so I put off deciding, until that in itself is a decision because I run out of time. I let life happen to me instead of being decisive, and I hate that.

See, the first sentence to me almost sounds a bit like perfectionism, like a J-type would have...

Hm... idk.

This is a good point. I seem to have A LOT of negative Si. I only see its dark side in myself, never the good things SJs (and INxPs, probably) seem to gain from it.

I've always been a bit confused with this myself. If you use a function a lot, but it manifests in a negative way... is it part of your type? I have a lot of negative Si (paired with Fe) as well.

Going back to your type... this is a bit long, but this thread by Eric B attempts to figure out your type with temperament in three areas: Affection, Inclusion, and Control. I found it quite interesting. There are links to more detailed descriptions, but a more simplistic table of the temperaments is here: http://www.erictb.info/temperament1.html (It's about a little less than halfway down the page)

 

[strychnine]

See, the first sentence to me almost sounds a bit like perfectionism, like a J-type would have...

I see that point as well.

I've always been a bit confused with this myself. If you use a function a lot, but it manifests in a negative way... is it part of your type? I have a lot of negative Si (paired with Fe) as well.

Yeah, I agree, that is confusing. I wonder if the stress reaction is more telling. A negative function that only manifests during stress means that it's probably your inferior, if it's there all the time then either you are always stressed, or there is some other problem causing one of your main functions to be negative...

Going back to your type... this is a bit long, but this thread by Eric B attempts to figure out your type with temperament in three areas: Affection, Inclusion, and Control. I found it quite interesting. There are links to more detailed descriptions, but a more simplistic table of the temperaments is here: http://www.erictb.info/temperament1.html (It's about a little less than halfway down the page)

Incidentally I looked at those a while back (in another thread):

Inclusion: Phlegmatic but I'm not at all slow-paced

Control:
Sanguine-Phlegmatic except that I don't care about being liked
Choleric but I'm only controlling if others try to control me first (then I'll control them just enough to get them out of my life)
Phlegmatic-Choleric except I don't desire a lot of recognition

Affection: Phlegmatic-Choleric seemed to fit fairly well.

I think I had some problems fitting myself to just one of them.

 

[/DG/]

Hmm... I was looking at that post and this statement you made sounds Melancholy-Phlegmatic (in control) to me:

I'm usually very independent and don't want other people intruding on my personal decisions. But if I'm working on something alongside other people, I won't try to take control of all decisions for the entire project. I am fairly collaborative with that.

Did you look at that chart from the link? It's much easier to digest. Here's a like to just the chart so you don't have to search through all of the text. (If you're in the middle of something, then it's probably a phlegmatic blend).

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2120/screenshottkn.png

 

[strychnine]

Hmm... I was looking at that post and this statement you made sounds Melancholy-Phlegmatic (in control) to me:

Did you look at that chart from the link? It's much easier to digest. Here's a like to just the chart so you don't have to search through all of the text. (If you're in the middle of something, then it's probably a phlegmatic blend).

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/2120/screenshottkn.png

Thanks for that. I read the descriptions on that website back when I made that post, but I think the chart makes it simpler. I would say Phlegmatic or Melancholy-Phlegmatic yeah. I'll only control other people enough to fight them off, but I find that stressful. I would much rather it be democratic.

 

[/DG/]

Hmmm...


Phlegmatic inclusion + Phlegmatic control roughly correlates to INFP
Phlegmatic inclusion + Melancholy control roughly correlates to ISFJ

 

[strychnine]

I could be Supine in Inclusion, maybe... lol