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  1. #1
    Member Alternatum's Avatar
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    Default Impulsive and Indecisive IxxJ without strong use of Extroverted Judging

    I had thought I was stuck between INFP/ISTJ (without ever looking like ISFP/ISFJ), until someone whose opinion I respect on another forum told me I'm “a clear NJ”, based on observing my posts over the last half-year. Now I would never just assume this to be true, because unless I 'get' it at gut level, or there is proper 'objective' evidence (which there never is) I won't be typing as anything, but it is at least worth entertaining for the time being.

    I do suspect that I am more J than P, but experience a lack of adequate use of extroverted thinking, probably explaining why I find it hard to form opinions and be decisive, especially with my ‘shape-shifting’ perceptions making things unclear. I often therefore wait for the ‘right’ choice to ‘emerge’ naturally, but whilst this often works, I experience myself as having poor extroverted perceiving, finding it hard to just improvise.

    I am somewhat reluctant to discuss Te/Fe or Ni/Si preferences because it will probably just end in me arguing with Beebe model 'enthusiasts' (which appears to be expected to be automatically accepted as correct). Basically, using so-called shadow functions is analogous to Jekyll invoking Hyde (e.g. Te is the 'trickster' for INFJ, Si the 'demon'). I think Lenore Thomson's 'lasagne' model (in “Personality Type: an owners manual”) is more realistic and flexible, considering there is no objective evidence for 'predictable' functional ordering anyway.

    Even though Lenore's descriptions of functions are better than what I've read elsewhere, I still have enormous trouble mapping them to myself. The problem with this system is I can't see past the surface descriptions to the cogs and wheels underneath, unlike the Enneagram where I eventually managed to see past the surface bullshit and see how I was a clear six.

    Does anyone here agree that the degree of one's interest in the personal or inter-personal versus the impersonal is the main or sole criteria for deciding between F and T, rather than worrying about level of preference for each of the judging functions in terms of how this fits in with a (non-proven) functional model?

    Lenore Thomson's account (not conclusive proof, I know) implies that INTJs that prefer Fi over Te are still INTJs NOT because this fits in with the requirements of a model so much as because they still prefer the 'impersonal' over the personal or inter-personal (I don't really understand how that works, other than that the Fi is apparently not used in a 'genuine' fashion).

  2. #2
    Member Alternatum's Avatar
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    Okay, I've just read this interesting description - it is more multi-faceted than usual:

    http://personalityjunkie.com/the-infj/

    Now this makes me think this could actually be my type. I'd sort of dismissed INFJ before because of the Fe and me keeping my distance from people. But it is precisely because I'm so concerned with getting the approval of others that I do this, because otherwise I fear losing independence (of mind, lifestyle, choice) due to my insecurity, and there's also deep fear of rejection and people seeing my 'despised self'. I'd also wondered how such a self-absorbed Ennea-type as 4 could be an FJ (not my 'core' type but apparently common for INFJ), with the insinuation of compromise and perhaps selflessness suggested by Fe, because type 4 just seems so focused on 'self-empathy' and hence seems very Fi to me. I am self-absorbed, but can get on with a wide range of people at different social levels, sometimes even sub-consciously adopting my mannerisms to reflect theirs. I don't see this as selling-out as much as just tapping into different sides of what already exists within my multi-faceted identity. But oh man I am obsessed with identity and figuring out 'who I really am', whatever that means.

    I think Te is really good for organising yourself, and I like making estimates and prefer hard evidence. I'm just a bit too lazy for dedicated Te use, and can't relate very well to Te types, for being emotionally detached and decisive and whatever else. Whilst on the one hand I think it would be miles better if Te-style objectivity could be effectively applied to things like Jungian-functions and the Enneagram, at the same time their interpretative and highly elusive nature paradoxically increases their appeal by rendering them highly esoteric and mysterious.

    To be honest even if no one responds this exercise has made me attempt to better clarify my thoughts on the issue, as knowing that someone might read means I'd better sound at least semi-coherent. In fact writing this now is so therapeutic I'm just going to keep posting here when I feel like it regardless of whether anyone else does, because I just need an outlet for self-expression right now.

    Sorry and thank you for even bothering to read this.
    Last edited by Alternatum; 03-13-2011 at 06:13 AM. Reason: tweaking

  3. #3
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    Welcome to the forums Alternatum!

    Alright, my vote would be INFJ, with a fairly weak use of Te, as you seem to definitely come off as an INFJ. Although I wouldn't rule out the possibility of INFP, although I see in your posts usage of both Ni and Fe.

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    Thanks Savage Idealist.

    I just worry about over-emphasizing some things while ignoring others (not necessarily intentionally, but there's only so much you can say in 2 posts anyway). Ideally typing by others is done when you weren't even thinking about yourself in relation to a personality theory, which is impossible to do here. But I would say my first post was the more 'analytic' me, and the second post the more 'expressive' me, as it were.

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    Your welcome

    From what you just said there I see more Ni and even some possible Ti, and your writing style is similar to that of other INFJ's thaat I have seen type (I've noticed that types seem to have distinctive writing styles). So yeah INFJ definitely seems your type (at least in my opinion), but to be sure, how well do you think your Se is? Because if it is slightly weak compared to your other functions then it would be more evidence for INFJ.

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    Being able to spot writing styles is good because I wouldn't be consciously thinking about how this affects typing, not least because I don't know what an INFJ writing style is supposed to look like exactly, compared to say INFP.

    I've always thought Se was one of my least used/preferred functions.

    One interesting thing is that over the last 2-3 years I have gotten more physically restless (was always fidgety though), and have lost weight. I've also gotten sometimes very anxious/agitated when I didn't get a quick response to postings in another forum, in a kind of 'acknowledge me!' kind of way (wasn't so bad with this thread, thankfully). Then I just wanted to pour myself out to people on the Internet (my only real outlet), like I just wanted to start acting crazy to get their attention (but always restrained myself, ever aware of the 'christ why the hell did I do that' effect the morning after). I try to use dancing to channel some of the energy (while fantasizing I'm somewhere more exciting).

    This is significant because this has co-incided with a phase of increased isolation from other people. I thought I might have an over-active thyroid, but have had this checked out and it was normal. So it is possible that this is an example of the so called inferior function causing havoc, perhaps due to under-use of Fe.

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    That is possible, that you started using your inferior function (or possibly delving into your shadow type) during a time of stress, but that good old Fe kept it in check

    Alright, I think INFJ is a perfect fit for you

    Unless, do you need any other information or assistance if you're unsure of having INFJ as your type? I ask this because you are indecisive

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    Thanks again, but I just wanted to run this quote by you. It's from a Personality Cafe thread (I unsubscribed from there months ago), and illustrates why I am still unsure about INFJ:

    "I've observed in the last year that unlike dominant or auxiliary Fi users (much like my closet friend who is most likely an xNFP), dominant or auxiliary Fe users are quite unaware of their own personal needs and wants. If they are or become aware of their own personal needs and wants, many 'delude' themselves (including myself!) that they can set aside their own personal needs and wants in favor of "...shared values, feelings and social norms to get along."

    As I said I am self-absorbed not to mention semi-reclusive, and can't relate to the above paragraph. It makes me shudder in fact the idea of giving myself over that much to 'social norms' or 'shared values', because my independence (of body and mind) is so important to me. I did say however that I have comparatively weak use of Fe, but then the same appears to apply to all the extroverted functions, so if not INFJ, then what?

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    Well, in that case if would seem that ou Fi is what is strong not Fe, but I do see some Ni use in you . . .

    Maybe ISFP? I mean you could have a fairly good tert Ni, with dom Fi, and Te would be weakest, although Se would be aux, but perhaps it isn't used often abd maybe your in a dom-tert loop? This same logic could be applied to the INTJ type, just swap the Ni-Fi and Se-Te positions.

    Although I could be wrong and your Ni use may not be all that high, I'm sorry for not being as certain as I should be.

    Oh and try these tests:

    http://www.keys2cognition.com/explore.htm

    http://www.helloquizzy.com/tests/the-jung-type-test

    Hope that helps

  10. #10
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    Okay I've muddied things right up now, dammit!

    I would have thought the quote I gave better described Fe-dominants actually, and have heard of INFJs putting less 'effort' into relationships than this. The following quote (from the EIDB, apparently) is supposed to describe a 'typical' route for a less healthy INFJ, though not necessarily the only one I guess.

    "INFJs tend to withdraw from reality into a fantasy world of their own, which gradually gains importance as they become dissatisfied with their real life and the people in it. While fulfilling the demands of their outer commitments, they harbor secret criticism and the feeling that their imaginary world and the characters that inhabit it are more important than the actual people in their lives. They can end up living almost exclusively in their imagination, resisting reality with a defensive attitude, feeling like a misfit and spending enormous amounts of time exploring and discovering their deepest hidden fantasies and emotions. In this state, they might be attracted to majorly defective people and environments, which they perceive will truly understand and appreciate them."

    Apart from the last sentence this is basically me, though it could probably apply to INFP as well. Currently I fulfill my obligations to the minimum level to ensure I am not (at least openly) criticized. I do respect some societal norms and 'shared values', the point I was trying to make was that I am not the type of person who would willingly just arrange my life around others, unless those others had special needs or were children. I'd take the possibility of being an INTJ in a dom-tert loop more seriously were it not that I am predominantly pre-occupied with the intra/inter personal, though if INTJs in such a loop start becoming more interested in the personal it would be worth entertaining (I've just never heard of this happening). For ISFP I'll re-think though.

    I've done two Jung tests before, and both put Fi tops. I don't take the results seriously, though I suppose it's another piece of evidence of sorts. But I'm increasingly having trouble seeing myself as anything other than a J-type (I am actually a huge fan of 'structure', even if I have a funny way of showing it), so this is hard, but I'm not entirely convinced that an INFJ would never use Fi in preference to Fe. It's not like I don't respect shared values at all, and partly (but certainly not entirely) judge my own actions against social norms/shared values, as I'm often not clear about what's right/wrong anyway.

    Perhaps I should post a thread in the INFJ section to see what they think about using Fi.

    Hope I haven't confused you further.

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