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  1. #41
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    That and INFPs being depressed misfits who daydream all the time and don't accomplish much in the real world. I know its just a stereotype but I still don't like being associated with a negative stereotype.
    :workout:

  2. #42
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Okay, here's the ISFJ description that Bury Me Closer Posted.

    Bolded: Very much fits
    Italics: Somewhat fits


    ISFJs are characterized above all by their desire to serve others and their "need to be needed." In extreme cases, this need is so strong that standard give-and-take relationships are deeply unsatisfying to them; however, most ISFJs find more than enough with which to occupy themselves within the framework of a normal life. (Since ISFJs, like all SJs, are very much bound by the prevailing social conventions, their form of "service" is likely to exclude any elements of moral or political controversy; they specialize in the local, the personal, and the practical.)

    NOTE: I like feeling "needed" yet I don't really enjoy serving others that much. It feels like an imposition on my own free time.

    ISFJs are often unappreciated, at work, home, and play. Ironically, because they prove over and over that they can be relied on for their loyalty and unstinting, high-quality work, those around them often take them for granted--even take advantage of them. Admittedly, the problem is sometimes aggravated by the ISFJs themselves; for instance, they are notoriously bad at delegating ("If you want it done right, do it yourself"). And although they're hurt by being treated like doormats, they are often unwilling to toot their own horns about their accomplishments because they feel that although they deserve more credit than they're getting, it's somehow wrong to want any sort of reward for doing work (which is supposed to be a virtue in itself). (And as low-profile Is, their actions don't call attention to themselves as with charismatic Es.) Because of all of this, ISFJs are often overworked, and as a result may suffer from psychosomatic illnesses.

    In the workplace, ISFJs are methodical and accurate workers, often with very good memories and unexpected analytic abilities; they are also good with people in small-group or one-on-one situations because of their patient and genuinely sympathetic approach to dealing with others. ISFJs make pleasant and reliable co-workers and exemplary employees, but tend to be harried and uncomfortable in supervisory roles. They are capable of forming strong loyalties, but these are personal rather than institutional loyalties; if someone they've bonded with in this way leaves the company, the ISFJ will leave with them, if given the option. Traditional careers for an ISFJ include: teaching, social work, most religious work, nursing, medicine (general practice only), clerical and and secretarial work of any kind, and some kinds of administrative careers.

    NOTE: I'm a librarian, which I think is fairly common among ISFJ.

    While their work ethic is high on the ISFJ priority list, their families are the centers of their lives.

    NOTE: While its true I love my family, I don't feel like family is the center of my life nor I am that interested in making it the center. I value my independence and my me time too much.

    ISFJs are extremely warm and demonstrative within the family circle--and often possessive of their loved ones, as well. When these include Es who want to socialize with the rest of the world, or self-contained ITs, the ISFJ must learn to adjust to these behaviors and not interpret them as rejection. Being SJs, they place a strong emphasis on conventional behavior (although, unlike STJs, they are usually as concerned with being "nice" as with strict propriety); if any of their nearest and dearest depart from the straight-and-narrow, it causes the ISFJ major embarrassment: the closer the relationship and the more public the act, the more intense the embarrassment (a fact which many of their teenage children take gleeful advantage of). Over time, however, ISFJs usually mellow, and learn to regard the culprits as harmless eccentrics :-). Needless to say, ISFJs take infinite trouble over meals, gifts, celebrations, etc., for their loved ones--although strong Js may tend to focus more on what the recipient should want rather than what they do want.

    Like most Is, ISFJs have a few, close friends. They are extremely loyal to these, and are ready to provide emotional and practical support at a moment's notice. (However, like most Fs they hate confrontation; if you get into a fight, don't expect them to jump in after you. You can count on them, however, run and get the nearest authority figure.)

    NOTE: I hate conflict yet I won't put with injustice. I will confront in such situations.

    Unlike with EPs, the older the friendship is, the more an ISFJ will value it. One ISFJ trait that is easily misunderstood by those who haven't known them long is that they are often unable to either hide or articulate any distress they may be feeling. For instance, an ISFJ child may be reproved for "sulking," the actual cause of which is a combination of physical illness plus misguided "good manners." An adult ISFJ may drive a (later ashamed) friend or SO into a fit of temper over the ISFJ's unexplained moodiness, only afterwards to explain about a death in the family they "didn't want to burden anyone with." Those close to ISFJs should learn to watch for the warning signs in these situations and take the initiative themselves to uncover the problem.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Functional Analysis
    by Joe Butt

    Introverted Sensing
    As for ISTJs, the dominant Si is oriented toward the world of forms, essences, generics. Again, "for both of the IS_J types, the sense of propriety comes from the clear definition of these internal forms. ... A 'proper' chair has four legs," etc. (Jung saw IS as something of an oxymoron: sensing, which is a perceiving function, focused inward and thus away from that which is perceived (the "object"). In this light, he described this sensing as something removed from reality, full of archetypes/mythical figures/hobgoblins; sensing of one's own set of forms.)

    NOTE: Description is kinda vague here. Hard to tell how well I relate to it but I definitely relate to the chair example.

    Extraverted Feeling
    A kind of "regression toward the mean" provided by the Fe auxiliary function serves to socialize the expression of these forms. I suppose it's the auxiliary nature of this Feeling, coupled with the balancing effect of {detachment from the internal idiosyncratic view of free-floating data perceptions} that makes ISFJs tentative, conservative, and reticent to boldly state the rights and wrongs in the relational world. (Loosely translated, ISFJs like to keep their perceptions to themselves, and aren't sure enough that what they "see" as Introverted Sensors has any relevance to the outside world. Thus the perception, based on unworldly data, may not be true. The obedient Extraverted Feeling function must therefore refrain from strong statements expressing these opinions.)

    Introverted Thinking
    Introverted Thinking is turned inward and is largely invisible. It is only with great difficulty, if at all, that the ISFJ could willingly commit anyone to their doom. Perhaps this explains why ISFJs are loyal to the end; there is no sense of purely objective (i.e., impersonal) judgement of anyone but themselves (and that only by their own standards). Here is this type's achilles heel that makes many of them so vulnerable to


    Extraverted iNtuition
    ISFJs are easily undone by Extraverted iNtuition, their inferior function. Believing in the fantastic, and disbelieving the technologically extant, are errors that my guide the gullible (or unfoundedly sceptical) ISFJ off a precipice of mis-conclusion. (One of our co-workers' mothers adamantly refused to believe that Dave Letterman's mom was actually at the olympics in Norway talking with the athletes and handing out hams! She suspected technological trickery.)
    This childlike Ne is, however, the likely source (coupled with fun-loving Extraverted Feeling) of the practical joking, punning and (usually harmless) impishness of some ISFJs

    NOTE: I could totally see myself in that David Letterman example.

    Overall the description seems to be only an okay fit. Maybe I should consider other types?
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  3. #43
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Just to add to my last comment (if you can call it that..), I wouldn't know the first thing about you really, but it is surprising that you would avoid considering INFP merely because of stereotypes (personally I think they're funny and slightly accurate, but that's beside the point). You fully admit that you're aware that they're stereotypes, yet still wouldn't consider INFP because of that. I see Fe playing out in that - like you prefer to abide by some other method of external judgement, even over your own reasoning that stereotypes are inaccurate. This is something I couldn't see ITPs do. Some barely register things on that angle - enough to the point that some may get nagged on it in their lives. IFJ definitely seems closer now.

  4. #44
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I have considered INFP in the past but have since figured it highly unlikely. The vast majority seems to think I'm an Fe user and I'm inclined to agree. I think I'm more Ti/Fe than Fi/Te but I could be wrong here.

    And I know that not all INFPs are hippy, flower childs or doormats. However the latter stereotype is a large reason why I don't want to be INFP. That and INFPs being depressed misfits who daydream all the time and don't accomplish much in the real world. I know its just a stereotype but I still don't like being associated with a negative stereotype.

    But that aside there are lots of wonderful things about INFPs- their depth of feeling, their compassion, their imagination for example.
    Does anyone REALLY think SuchIrony could still be a T? At this point, I don't. All the talk about what type she "wants" to be has me convinced. There are certain types I don't want to be, either... but I can't imagine a T having that kind of attitude. Not this blatantly, anyway.

  5. #45
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I think those descriptions are compatible with a Supine INTP, and especially a female. (and don't forget the ever so "inflatable" tertiary).

    I "wanted' to be an INTP also, with even a pair of so-called "experts" trying to make me ENFP, even down to using that very "want" as the ultimate proof of F (but, "Fi", though, which is defined in their system as "valuing", while Fe is solely about "considering others").

    But "wanting", as well as "valuing", and "emotion" are properties of the ego. I have lately been emphasizing something I have finally grasped, and that is that differentiated functional preference is determined by how the functions play out in our emotions. So someone who values emotions for their own sake will likely be a Feeler. This will make them more focused on personal interests. Thinkers value things as well, but feel more in control of their emotions when dealing in impersonal logic.

    The reason I "wanted" to be an INTP, was a totally "technical" reason: because it seemed to fit my ICA temperament from the correlation that was coming together in my studies. (INP=Supine in Inclusion; NT=Choleric in Control). ENFP would completely screw that up.
    The people on the site where I was before were even complaining I was too "impersonal" with the theories; "toying" with them for their own sake, rather than self-disclosure or self-growth. That should have been the biggest clue right there. (But they tried to make this tertiary "Te", but come on; that will only go but so far!)

    And then, just the notion of Ti seemed to be something that resonated more (even if I didn't feel as "detached" as many descriptions emphasize), where I didn't want to be an introverted Feeler, because to me, a "personal ethics system" was a very big vulnerability. All people will do is trample over one's personal values.

    And the Joe Butt profile was one of the ones that clicked for me and made me recognize myself in the INTP type.
    I too kept bringing up the topic, comparing profiles and such (even when I first arrived here), until I finally verified it myself by gaining enough understanding of the concepts.

    Again, the 'experts' and their fans kept using this as "proof" of "Fi valuing", but it actually betrays my ego's conscious sense of "I vs not I". What I identify with resonates, (even if I feel not so good at it, based on descriptions that are themselves often overgeneralized or even stereotyped a lot of times). It's precisely this that shows Feeling is inferior, vulnerable, unwanted by the ego, especially in the obviously preferred "P" (Ji) attitude; not a confident, preferred function. (And we saw pretty much a similar sentiment by you in one of the videos). It was Feeling that often erupted unconsciously, and often derailed my aims. As I was grappling with this, it seemed for awhile to confirm my worst fear of being a Feeler, but lo and behold, as I finally learned more about this stuff, it became my ultimate proof of a Ti preference. Now, it seems ludicrous that I ever worried I might be a Feeler.


    This is what gives the best evidence for true T vs F preference.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  6. #46
    Senior Member burymecloser's Avatar
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    I've been leaning slightly toward INTP, but I'm just not sure you strike me as a Ti-dom. Almost everything you bolded in the ISFJ description seems related to Si (or to general introversion). What would you think of ISFJ with weak Fe and good Ne? ISfJ, maybe?

    I think Si dom with strong tert Ti rings a little more true than the reverse. Alternatively, you could type like Jennifer -- whom each of you identified as similar in the Most similar/dissimilar members within your type thread -- and go with INtP. Actually, that might fit best: accounts for a less-dominant Ti, with aux Ne, a strong tertiary Si, and inferior Fe.

    Final answer: INtP.
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  7. #47
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Just to add to my last comment (if you can call it that..), I wouldn't know the first thing about you really, but it is surprising that you would avoid considering INFP merely because of stereotypes (personally I think they're funny and slightly accurate, but that's beside the point). You fully admit that you're aware that they're stereotypes, yet still wouldn't consider INFP because of that. I see Fe playing out in that - like you prefer to abide by some other method of external judgement, even over your own reasoning that stereotypes are inaccurate. This is something I couldn't see ITPs do. Some barely register things on that angle - enough to the point that some may get nagged on it in their lives. IFJ definitely seems closer now.
    That's not why I didn't consider INFP. Its true that if I had a choice, I wouldn't choose to be INFP. Actually, there are some things in the INFP profile that I relate to, both good and bad. Its just that I think other type profiles are a better fit. I don't really want to be an ISFJ either but it hasn't stopped me from seriously considering that as a type possibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Does anyone REALLY think SuchIrony could still be a T? At this point, I don't. All the talk about what type she "wants" to be has me convinced. There are certain types I don't want to be, either... but I can't imagine a T having that kind of attitude. Not this blatantly, anyway.
    I think F's are more likely to blatantly have the attitude that some types are somehow "good" and "desirable" and other types are somehow "bad" or "undesirable." However, I've seen this attitude in T's as well. I've been on other type related forums where NTs have expressed their vehement dislike for SJ types for example. Are some of these NTs mistyped? Probably but I don't think all of them are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Again, the 'experts' and their fans kept using this as "proof" of "Fi valuing", but it actually betrays my ego's conscious sense of "I vs not I". What I identify with resonates, (even if I feel not so good at it, based on descriptions that are themselves often overgeneralized or even stereotyped a lot of times). It's precisely this that shows Feeling is inferior, vulnerable, unwanted by the ego, especially in the obviously preferred "P" (Ji) attitude; not a confident, preferred function. (And we saw pretty much a similar sentiment by you in one of the videos). It was Feeling that often erupted unconsciously, and often derailed my aims. As I was grappling with this, it seemed for awhile to confirm my worst fear of being a Feeler, but lo and behold, as I finally learned more about this stuff, it became my ultimate proof of a Ti preference. Now, it seems ludicrous that I ever worried I might be a Feeler.

    This is what gives the best evidence for true T vs F preference.
    I sorta relate to what you're saying here.

    Quote Originally Posted by burymecloser View Post
    I've been leaning slightly toward INTP, but I'm just not sure you strike me as a Ti-dom. Almost everything you bolded in the ISFJ description seems related to Si (or to general introversion). What would you think of ISFJ with weak Fe and good Ne? ISfJ, maybe?

    I think Si dom with strong tert Ti rings a little more true than the reverse. Alternatively, you could type like Jennifer -- whom each of you identified as similar in the Most similar/dissimilar members within your type thread -- and go with INtP. Actually, that might fit best: accounts for a less-dominant Ti, with aux Ne, a strong tertiary Si, and inferior Fe.

    Final answer: INtP.
    I'm leaning slightly towards INtP as my own self-typing at this moment. I'm still not ready to 'confirm' it by putting it in my sig. I suppose comparing the INTP and ISFJ profiles, INTP does fit a little bit more but it is a pretty close call. It's true that I'm more SFJ like than most INTPs. The inverse is also true. If I'm ISFJ, I'm more NTP like. Perhaps I should just declare my type as Ti/Si. That would resolve some ambiguities around the issue.

    My mother is likely an ISFJ and in my upbringing, ISFJ behaviors were more encouraged than INTP ones. That's another point to consider.

    I also examined how I was like in childhood in this post: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=1#post1484921

    In some ways I was rather J like in my stubborness and rigidity. I also cared more about wanting to have friends and the like than most INTPs likely would have but overall I think it comes closer to INTP than ISFJ. See what you think. Aspergers also clouds the issue. I suppose its possible I was really an F but Aspergers made me rather tactless and insensitive to others' feelings as a cihld.
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  8. #48
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    I think that you are neither, from the myriad of threads you've created on the topic, it seems like you are an INFJ,
    Meh. You lost me at INFJ. Look and feel is all wrong, despite some cosmetic similarities.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I hope I'm not offending any ISFJs here, but I read the ISFJ descriptions and they seem so boring, like all these people do is blindly accept and follow rules and serve others without having much of a life of their own because they are spending all their time serving others. Who wants to live a life like that? Okay, I know that's being rather judgemental. I know a couple ISFJs like that but they are probably not the most psychologically healthy. I'm sure there are ISFJs who are not doormats, who have enough independence of mind to question traditions and the ways things are done. There is a lot of variation in a given type.
    I don't know any ISFJs who really want to be ISFJ based on the generic MBTI descriptions given of them, because they DO make ISFJ look boring, and they're offended by that.

    The strong ISFJs I know are not doormats, although they can struggle with feeling that way. Typically, they passionately care about the people they love -- usually family and those close friends who they have the time to dedicate themselves to. They can dote on that small select group and find great life fulfillment in meeting needs in that group; their loved ones' happiness is theirs. They are diligent and loyal and struggle through adversity for those they love. They take their tasks seriously to the point of making sure everything is done, on time, to a high level of excellence. They can feel awkward when they don't know how to do something, and can easily get down on themselves for failing to perform a duty to the highest level of their ability. I'm amazed at their tenacity and ability to reach goals through sheer commitment and perseverence that I did not ever think logically/intuitively was likely to succeed in the first place.

    I don't know about you, but I don't find that boring. I think that actualized ISFJs are pretty amazing.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #49
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I was kind of difficult and different as a child. I was very intelligent and always working on some interesting 'project.' Once I became interested in something, I wanted to learn everything about it until I exhausted the material out there or just got bored with it and then became obsessed with something else. I was alot less polite and tactful as a child. If someone's dress was ugly, I would actually tell them that straight to their face. It took me a long time to grasp social cues and conventions. I don't think I really got it down until high school and even then I did things I'd consider very foolish and embarrasing. I never had many friends although when I was younger I would have liked to. I just never grasped how to socialize properly. I probably had Asperger syndrome but never got an official diagnosis. Middle school was particularly painful as I was mostly friendless and picked on constantly. High school I wasn't picked on so much but mostly ignored. I learned to enjoy my own company as a way of compensating. I became alot more introverted. I was actually quite energetic and talkative pre-high school. I don't know if I was actually an extrovert but I was a lot more extroverted until I reached my teens.

    I was quite stubborn and inflexible as a child to the point of exasperating my parents. I'm alot more easygoing now about stuff. I was always asking "why" and my parents didn't always know what to make of that. They would say things like "why do you care?" Eventually, I learned to ask less questions. It was difficult because there was no Internet growing up where I could just look it up myself.

    I did well academically but only really cared about grades in high school. In elementary and middle school I did well but not straight A's because I didn't like to study and rushed through homework. In high school I became rather obsessed with grades because that was the one thing I had going for me. I never dated in high schol and all my extracurriculars were limited to academic clubs and a part-time job. I was also totally oblivious to fashion and style and dressed poorly. I thought people who cared about their looks were superficial.

    I was terrible at sports and anything atheletic so I never even tried out for any teams. I was kind of self-centered anyway so it was probably good I wasn't on any team sports as I tended to worry more about my own performance.

    I didn't get in a whole lot of trouble. One time I got detention for acting up in class but that was about the worst of it. On the other hand I wasn't exactly a saint. I didn't see the point of cleaning up my room (I'm kind of a clean freak now) and never took initiative on household chores or offered to help out. I waited until they insisted I do it and even then I'd protest and it usually took threats of losing priveleges before I complied.
    Once again, you sound so much like me. (Except for the high school part, where my grades basically stayed mediocre as it was hard to focus on anything but my interests).

    Again, this screams Ti dominance, (as the first developing function, and the ego's main world view), and is anything but F. F's, and especially SFJ's are more "cooperative", and less stubborn and interested in "projects" and such.
    I don't think even dom. Si would be quite like that. It's clearly a strong, internal impersonal judgment system going on.

    The stubbornness and wanting to know why is also a sign of the Choleric,and as you grow up, you realize if you want your Inclusions needs met better, you have to tone the Control behavior down. (Also paralleling the development of inferior Fe).

    (I also used to wear the lowercase t!)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  10. #50
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Meh. You lost me at INFJ. Look and feel is all wrong, despite some cosmetic similarities.


    I don't know any ISFJs who really want to be ISFJ based on the generic MBTI descriptions given of them, because they DO make ISFJ look boring, and they're offended by that.

    The strong ISFJs I know are not doormats, although they can struggle with feeling that way. Typically, they passionately care about the people they love -- usually family and those close friends who they have the time to dedicate themselves to. They can dote on that small select group and find great life fulfillment in meeting needs in that group; their loved ones' happiness is theirs. They are diligent and loyal and struggle through adversity for those they love. They take their tasks seriously to the point of making sure everything is done, on time, to a high level of excellence. They can feel awkward when they don't know how to do something, and can easily get down on themselves for failing to perform a duty to the highest level of their ability. I'm amazed at their tenacity and ability to reach goals through sheer commitment and perseverence that I did not ever think logically/intuitively was likely to succeed in the first place.

    I don't know about you, but I don't find that boring. I think that actualized ISFJs are pretty amazing.
    I really like your above ISFJ description. I wouldn't mind being an ISFJ after reading that. How about replacing most of the ISFJ descriptions out there with something on the lines of this? What do you all say?

    I've come to the conclusion that I'm probably not an ISFJ though. I think alot of my confusion stemmed from several factors. I have a well-developed tertiary Si and as I've gotten older I've had better access and more interest in Fe. Growing up around an ISFJ mother probably helped me develop some of the attributes more commonly associated with ISFJs. Some of the more INTP typical behavior in my childhood was looked down upon or not understood so I learned to compensate with more socially acceptable behaviors. Also, I think by nature I'm somewhat more J and F like than an average INTP. Each type has variation within it and I've come to realize that INTP is likely the best overall fit even if it doesn't fit perfectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Once again, you sound so much like me. (Except for the high school part, where my grades basically stayed mediocre as it was hard to focus on anything but my interests).

    Again, this screams Ti dominance, (as the first developing function, and the ego's main world view), and is anything but F. F's, and especially SFJ's are more "cooperative", and less stubborn and interested in "projects" and such.
    I don't think even dom. Si would be quite like that. It's clearly a strong, internal impersonal judgment system going on.

    The stubbornness and wanting to know why is also a sign of the Choleric,and as you grow up, you realize if you want your Inclusions needs met better, you have to tone the Control behavior down. (Also paralleling the development of inferior Fe).

    (I also used to wear the lowercase t!)
    Thanks for all your feedback EricB as well as everyone else who contributed to this and related threads. You've cleared up some confusion I had. I think in some ways your type is most 'pure' in childhood. You act out of your natural inclinations more both for better and for worse. In childhood I think its pretty clear I was more INTP like than ISFJ like or any other of the 14 types.

    So back to INTP, but with a little t.

    I know some people are going to disagree but that's just tough. No matter what type I declare myself to be, there is not going to be universal agreement.
    INtp
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    Replies: 60
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  5. [INTP] What do INTPs think of the world financial crisis?
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