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  1. #21
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Also, even the wanting so much to wear a type I see as possibly a sign of Ti. You want to fit yourself into the category. Types are categories (of people), and Ti wants to fit the ego into the system.
    Not to be riding your ass all the time or anything, but this is just....
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  2. #22
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    And what's wrong with that?
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  3. #23
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    "Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it." (http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/in...dthinking.html)

    A personality is an idea too, so why wouldn't wanting to express that concisely indicate Ti?

  4. #24
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I read your links, EricB, but am not very familar with that system. Do those types necessarily indicate NT-ness? It seems that those interaction styles could apply to almost any type, and could be influenced by rejection in the past, etc.

    I think wanting to know the exact type can be Ti, but it can also be a lot of other things...look how many members of all types have created threads to definitively type themselves.
    Something Witty

  5. #25
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    No, the two in that post would both be the INP part (Behind the Scenes).
    NT would be this:
    http://www.pastoral-counseling-cente...ic-control.htm

    There's even stuff in Keirsey's books that strikingly match some of the traits.
    It's less pronounced for the INTP (since the Interaction Style is totally opposite), but more typical in the ENTJ (purest Choleric), ENTP (Sanguine-Choleric) and INTJ (Melancholy-Choleric)
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  6. #26
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    1) All this time I thought SuchIrony was a guy. (not that that makes any difference)
    2.) Only you can decide what type you are. The only thing people on this forum can do is teach you more about functions and type theory so you can make a better decision but they can't really type you accurately.
    3) I think you should be an ISFJ because I want more people here to be ISFJ.
    4) You can also become INTP because I think that will make them squirm, and that would be fun. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    I really don’t like most ISFJ profiles. I don’t like them so much that I barely even read them (much less reference them). If I could, I would single-handedly rewrite all of them. Please don’t think of them as the Rosetta Stone of SJness. Please also keep in mind that your functions should be measured by role and behavior more than strength. SJ Ne is there (sometimes strongly so), it just performs very differently than from what you would see in NPs.
    I know, right? The ISFJ descriptions are really absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Also, don't think that because a lot of ISFJ descriptions are "boring" that's a reason to downplay ISFJ's and do the "I don't want to be one" thing. A lot of type descriptions are biased against sensors, particularly SJ's. There are a lot of awesome ISFJ's out there in the world (see: Giggly, etc), so if you're one of them, be proud
    Awww thanks.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    Well, I don't know where you are in your life, but I think you are probably an INTP, who has just reached the lifestage where Si-Fe becomes closer to consciousness. Your dominant function is the function you first developed as the framework to deal with the world. When you begin to see the limitations of that function and need to develop further coping skills, you develop your auxiliary as a primary support function, and then comes the tertiary and the inferior. Marie-Lousie von Franz says that as you progress in developing the next function and advancing towards individuation, you may "become" a different type for as much as 6 or 7 years. That's not to say your type is actually different, it's just that your "centre of gravity shifts away from the ego".

  8. #28
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Interesting thread we have here!

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    *Respects traditions and laws. They tend to believe that existing systems are there because they work. Therefore, they're not likely to buy into doing things in a new way, unless they're shown in a concrete way why its better than the established method.
    --> Its true that I am generally respectful of most traditions and laws. However, I'm not interested in tradition for its own sake unless its got some real sentimental value to me. I'm quick to discard methods that don't work and seek to improve and change things far more than an average ISFJ would, I think. At work, I seem more receptive to changes than alot of my colleagues. For example, if we get new computer software, other colleagues will talk about how they hate the change whereas I'm willing to accept a somewhat steep learning curve if I can see the exciting possibilities it will bring. Sometimes I'm even naively enthusiastic about some new changes. Others, not so much. I don't like every change that takes place but overall, I think I tolerate change better than most ISFJs I know. On the other hand, change for the sake of change doesn't appeal to me much either. I'm most likely to want change not out of boredom but more the case of seeing that something is not currently working and seeing ways to improve it.
    I'm actually the same way. I sometimes wonder if this is because I'm Gen-Y or maybe I just have a weaker J than some other SFJs (which is actually why I lower cased the J in my description)

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    *ISFJs learn best by doing, rather than by reading about something in a book, or applying theory. For this reason, they are not likely to be found in fields which require a lot of conceptual analysis or theory.
    --> Somewhat true/false. Alot depends on what I'm learning and the context. If its a practical skill that's more physical in nature, I will need to have the opportunity to physically go through the motions to insure that I understand it properly. With other things, I'm just happy to read about it and theorize it without any practical application .
    I can learn by listening or by reading a book (it's how I got through real estate school, after all) but I have to say I learn BEST by doing. It's why I think I'm a fast learner on the dance floor (or so I've been told by more than one instructor )

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    *The ISFJ has an extremely well-developed sense of space, function, and aesthetic appeal. For that reason, they're likely to have beautifully furnished, functional homes. They make extremely good interior decorators. This special ability, combined with their sensitivity to other's feelings and desires, makes them very likely to be great gift-givers - finding the right gift which will be truly appreciated by the recipient.
    --> Again somewhat true/false. I think my aestetic sense is pretty average. I have the potential to develop good aestetic sense, I think. My family seems to think I have a good sense of what looks good together. It's never been a top priority of mine though. I hate giving gifts. Largely because I very much want the recipient to like what I gave them but yet I feel like I don't know enough about the recipient to really make a good decision. So sometimes I resort to 'safe' things like a gift certificate to a store I know they frequent.
    I don't know how much this fits into this description, but I tend to design the layout of my living spaces based on utility more than looks, and when I do tend to the aesthetic appeal of my living areas, it's usually to make sure everything is in symmetry (any paintings on the walls are all exactly the same distance from the ceiling, etc..)

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    *Extremely aware of their own internal feelings, as well as other people's feelings.
    --> I'm extremely aware of my own internal feeling but I'm not so sure about others' feelings. Sometimes I miss certain body language cues. If the body language is obvious and the person explicitly states their feelings, I will be sensitive and receptive to the other. I will say I often have an insecurity revolving around others' feelings. For example: Are they *truly* satisfied or are they just saying that?
    I can be the same way, but only when I don't know the person very well or if I'm feeling very insecure about myself at the time. I've been told I can be something of a mind reader when it comes to the people I know. That's only because I've been around them long enough to learn their patterns, how they feel about things, how they express themselves, etc.. that I've learned how to read them.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    *The ISFJ has a difficult time saying "no" when asked to do something, and may become over-burdened. In such cases, the ISFJ does not usually express their difficulties to others, because they intensely dislike conflict, and because they tend to place other people's needs over their own. The ISFJ needs to learn to identify, value, and express their own needs, if they wish to avoid becoming over-worked and taken for granted.
    --> Partially true/false. I have an easier time at it than some ISFJs I know. I try to be careful not to get overly involved with others as I don't like being overburdened and I like to have a lot of "me" time. On the other hand, if I don't think there is anyone else that's available to help or no one with the right skill set except for me, it can be hard to say no. I don't like to leave people helplessly 'hanging' and if I say no, I feel like I have to bear some of the responsibility for the person's problems. I know at work, I've actually been told by my boss a few times that I shouldn't be afraid to draw clearer boundaries and just flat out say "no". I work in the library and help alot of customers with using the library computers. I'm one of the more computer savvy ones and there have been times where I've been the only one on duty who knew how to do a certain thing. The problem is sometimes the customers requests are complicated and take a long time to fulfill but I tried to help them anyway rather than declining their request or suggesting they come in at a later time because they just seemed so insistent and what they were doing just seemed so important to them and there was no one else they could ask. Sometimes they were doing things considered "urgent" like applying for a job under a tight deadline.
    This is definately one of my faults that I've been working on the hardest these past two years. As a rental property manager I come into contact with conflict a lot and I've had to learn to stand up for myself a lot of the times. I still have a serious problem with conflict and will often go out of my way to make sure something is done just to prevent any further problems....but I have come a long ways. I've stood up to angry owners and tenants, even yelled at a couple of them (Now they won't talk to me anymore! )

    Still...I just wish everyone could get a long

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I hope I'm not offending any ISFJs here, but I read the ISFJ descriptions and they seem so boring, like all these people do is blindly accept and follow rules and serve others without having much of a life of their own because they are spending all their time serving others.
    I actually spend a great deal of my time by myself tending to my own needs (though not always by choice) and living my own life. I work two jobs and when I'm not working I'm goofing off alone in my apartment or out dancing and I hang out with friends when I'm invited.

    Truthfully it's not a group of people I'd like to dot on...it's one or two. More than that, and I start to get reeeeeeeeeeally burnt out. but I like dotting on friends or family that mean a lot to me. I don't know it's that's because I'm an ISFJ or because I'm a Type 2 but I have a very strong need to want to give to the people I care about, to felt as useful or needed to them.

    I do follow a lot of rules and such but that's because it makes things easy for me. Also, if it's of any consolation, one of my deeper insecurities (not my greatest but certainly one of them) is being boring. It's something that worries me terribly when I'm out with friends.

    However, I did have an experience sometime ago with an ENFJ male friend of mine. I was remarking to him about how it is a lot of my friends laugh and joke and carry on with each other but when they're with me...it's like they get all serious and stuff and that really bothered me. It made me feel like not only that I wasn't included, but that the REASON I wasn't included was because I was perceived as being "stiff" or "boring".

    My friend responded to me that the reason they do that is probably because I'm one of the few people they feel they can be that way around. He explained to me that he found me extremely easy to talk too as I gave off this very cool, calm aura that seemed to calm people. He told me that was why he always confided in my about problems with his (now ex) wife, because he felt so at ease around me.

    A very tall compliment for me, and it helped...but I still worry that I'm boring sometimes

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Who wants to live a life like that? Okay, I know that's being rather judgemental. I know a couple ISFJs like that but they are probably not the most psychologically healthy. I'm sure there are ISFJs who are not doormats, who have enough independence of mind to question traditions and the ways things are done. There is a lot of variation in a given type.
    It's not as bad you might think and yes, you are right, there is a BUNCH of variation in type.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I think partly why the ISFJ descriptions hold far less appeal than the INTP or other NT ones is because ISFJ is such a common type. According to the MBTI form M data, 1 in 5 females is an ISFJ and around 13% of the general population. If it sounds rather generic its because it could apply to a huge number of people. The INTP description feels more 'special' somehow, probably because it is a rarer type. Also, the way the ISFJ descriptions are worded make them sound like boring, bland people. They are probably not written by ISFJs but rather someone's conception of an ISFJ.
    They may be written that way. I'm getting the impression from you though that you have low self-esteem. At the risk of sounding very typically ISFJ: Sweetie, you are a remarkable and amazing person in your own right. Four letters do not define you. MBTI (insofar as I understand it anyways) is intended to help you learn about yourself so that you can recognize your strengths and your weaknesses and then work on them. That's all.

    At the end of the day though, you are still you. You are unique, interesting, valuable person. You always have been, and you always will be

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Maybe this points away from me being ISFJ; maybe it doesn't. I wonder how ISFJs view the ISFJ description. I know some who are quite happy being ISFJ.
    Count me among one of those Sure I wish I had the smooth-talking skills of an ESTP, the drive and force of character of an ENTJ, or the boundless empathy and feeling of an NF. But I am happy with who I am, as I know that me and people like me are very important just as we are to some

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    ISFJ just doesn't seem like the time to make history and just blend in. If I'm ISFJ, I'm an atypical one because I don't want to just blend in unnoticed. I want to stand out more (in a good way of course). I remember reading Neidnagel's Brain Types book and I don't think there were any exemplars of famous ISFJs. ENTPs on the other hand had a huge list.
    I want to stand out too. I mentioned my insecurities earlier in this post. Know what my greatest fear is? Being unwanted, unloved, and considered useless. I want people to recognize my strengths and what I have to offer someone. So I work hard, I try and support my friends as best I can and I hope they never realize just how devastated I would be if they all abandoned me tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    Here's another thing. I use alot of Ne- at least I think I do. Correct me if I'm wrong. I feel too Ne to be ISFJ- it's their inferior function after all. I do though, relate somewhat to the description of inferior Ne in ISFJs- catastrophizing and imaging horrible possibilities. Overall though, my demons are more in the Fe arena than the Ne arena.
    Ne is one of those things I'm not very familiar with so I can't really comment on this one. Sorry
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  9. #29
    Member amazingdatagirl's Avatar
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    Memorization ability is a dead give away for ISxJ - INTPs have more of a Ne quality to their memory. They can recall facts that relate to some topic of interest but rote memorization is torture.

    Why are so many participants on this thread skeptical that ambiguity could exist between INTP and ISFJ ?

    INTP
    Ti - Ne - Si - Fe

    ISFJ
    Si - Fe - Ti - Ne

    They have the same dominant and tertiary functions (reversed order). Depending on one's personal circumstances, a INTP with highly developed Si and repressed Ne would appear very ISFJ-ish. OTOH, an intelligent ISFJ with a decent level of emotional detachment could come across as INTP.

    SuchIrony - Why not consider INFP?

    Awareness of inner emotional state
    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I don't relate to this. Feelings are definitely important and weigh into my decisions. I think in general I tend to decide on logic more but there's no denying feelings here.
    Need to conserve emotional energy
    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I'm capable of meeting others' emotional needs but would prefer not too. I don't feel confident in such situations, worry about my ability to effectively calm stressed people down or cheer sad people up. I would rather leave these sorts of things to someone else.
    Would an INTP ever get angsty over the quality of her friendships?
    Quote Originally Posted by SuchIrony View Post
    I'm not into having friends for the sake of having friends. Quality is definitely more important than quantity.
    Disregard the hippy flower child, doormat profiles for INFPs.

  10. #30
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amazingdatagirl View Post
    Why are so many participants on this thread skeptical that ambiguity could exist between INTP and ISFJ ?
    I know, right?! I know a bunch of INTPs here act just like ISFJs!

    *holds in laughter*

    I tease, I tease.

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