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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    There may be something to the tri-types, and I could see 9-5-3 or even 5-9-3. The blurbs PB posted and the bit I posted resonated for more strongly for me than any other enneagram-based description I had ever read. But as far as I'm concerned, the pure types, the wings, and the moving up or down those arbitrary cycles (2->5->8, etc., however that is supposed to work) don't resonate much at all. They sound like guesswork that is accurate only to the point that it's right w/r to the information I've given.

    I'm a nerd, so 5 is a good first guess ... but then the rest of the 5 description goes very wrong, pretending that I'm like all other nerds and share their neuroses. OK, so if I'm mostly free of neuroses, and very calm and peaceful, so maybe I'm a 9, but then that means I must be oh-so-worried about how people think about me and I must be very indecisive and lack ambition?!

    Yeah, if the tritype doesn't make sense, I'll just stay clear of enneagram.
    To me tritype is a much more satisfying way of exploring enneagram. One will frequently find information in the descriptions in the individual types that will then conflict with information/description of one’s tritype. For example, many descriptions of 9 describe the 9 as not being intellectually disposed. Yet descriptions of tritypes with 95 in their makeup are described as being intellectual and contemplative. So one really can be a 9 and be intellectual, but if one is reading the pure description of 9 and going off of that, they will struggle with typing themselves. Typing using the wing framework often results in a forced fit. I know many people who don’t identify with either of the wings, or identify with both wings, leaving them in a no man’s land.

    Tritype is also a more intuitive framework to me, having a more explored and admirable reasoning behind it. We all use our heart, mind, and gut just like we all use all of the cognitive functions in MBTI. The difference is in the order of preference, development, and hierarchy of the modes. The synergy between them and resulting fingerprint is what creates the holistic composite.

  2. #32
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    It hits from a number of different angles, so you get more specificity, and thus more accuracy.

    Part of the issue I've seen with the enneagram is that the descriptions tend to be more general, when your actual type is more specific.
    I must disagree. The main archetypes are anything but general, they start off too specific. The tritypes are differently specific. (And actually kind of short and vague, from my readings so far ... they don't try to psychoanalyze me to death.)

    You'll see a description of a type 5 or a type 9, but that description isn't of a 5w4 or 5w6, or a 9w8 or 9w1.

    Then, if you do actually find a description of a type+wing, it doesn't include your health level or instinctual variant.

    Sometimes (rarely) you find descriptions that include type + wing + instinctual stacking, and those can be really insightful.
    You know this reads like confirmation bias, right? "Oh, it only sounds wrong because it was incomplete."

    No, it sounds wrong because it is incorrect.

    I don't think it's the fault of enneagram, per se, but that so many different parties have taken the initial system and run with it, and it collects cruft, e.g., there are so many FP 9s, well, gee, all the 9 descriptions start sounding like FPs, thus excluding all 9s who don't match up with that. The wings tend to take pieces of the main type, and delete/replace with select aspects of the wing. I respect the instinctual aspect, but that appears to be more its own typing system, and not really an extension/clarification of ennegram (it's cruft, but moderately useful).

    Have you read through the health levels of 5s and 9s?

    The long detailed ones, in 'Personality Types', not the short versions.
    Yeah. The problem with those is that the neurotic ones aren't me, and the non-neurotic ones start sounding too much alike.


    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    My two favorite 9 links:

    Here

    and

    Here

    Read, digest, cogitate, Ni-them and report back.
    Some first impressions:

    The more I read the 9 descriptions, the more they sound like neurotic Fi, the 5 descriptions sound like neurotic Ti, and the 6 descriptions sound like neurotic Ni/Si.

    And as I noted to Z, the non-neurotic descriptions all seem to blend into mush. So the one thing that differentiates the types, the stories of how they overcome their primary fears and evolve (or succumb to them and devolve), are the main thing I don't identify with. There's 9 stories, or 27 stories if you include wings. None of those is my story.

    When I first started school (we're talking pre-k through 2nd grade), no one would have typed me as a brainy 5. I just wanted to play and have fun, or do interesting things with grown-ups. Instead, I was stuck in rooms full of other kids, and the grown-ups treated me like the other kids. My reaction was to withdraw into my inner world: not because I was frightened of anything, but I was bored stiff. Being an Ni dom explains this, but nothing of enneagram does, because enneagram requires that I'm reacting to a fear.

    Did I have fears? Yeah, sure, but they were more along the lines of stupid imaginary kid fears (monsters in the closet, which Ni can make seem very real ...) to quite real fears (bullies wanting to pick on me). Academically, I was never afraid of not being smart or competent enough. Initially, I didn't care: my report cards would fret about my "daydreaming." I didn't at all ever think of myself as "smart" or "intellectual" until grade 3: I took some standardized test (not SAT, but sort of like it) that I didn't give a crap about, and the results came back and said I was in the top 2% of whatever. Heck, I had to ask what percentages mean. That's when I first knew I was "smart", and started falling into that "smart kid" stereotype.

    But I wasn't ever chasing eagerly after knowledge like a 5: I just learned fast, it was all easy for me. I remember for one science quiz in 5th grade, we were supposed to draw where the sun, moon and earth were for a solar eclipse and a lunar eclipse. The teacher, asking why the some of the class still needed time, pointed out that not only had I already answered the two questions, I had correctly drawn in the continents on the earth, and was gradually doodling in more detail, waiting for the test to be over, and for school to be over: I wanted to go home and play, or read, or whatever - to do something INTERESTING. (The eclipse thing was interesting to me back in the 3rd grade, where the teacher couldn't figure out how to answer my question of why the moon was full when it was opposite the earth from the sun, after all, wouldn't it be in the shadow of the earth, then?)

    So I have this 5 bent because I'm smart, and I'm good at technical things, and not so good at people things, and I'm mostly a loner. But the 5 describes as being eager and chasing after knowledge as if I won't ever have enough. Um, no.

    This is why I tend to feel the 9 fits more, except for the Fi-ish losing of myself over the concerns for others. No, I'm 9 because I treasure the alone time to enjoy myself, and a subset of how I enjoy myself is figuring things out (5), and a subset of that is figuring out how to use all this stuff I know to do something productive (3).

    It's why I'm a physics Ph.D., but ended up not taking a career in physics. Seeing the graduate school serfdom system in full clarity pointed out to me that being a physicist in this environment would not only be no fun, but remarkably unproductive by my own standards.

    Being a 9 is why the Tao Te Ching resonates with me. There's an interesting and thoughtful criticism of Taoism which basically says it encourages people to be passive and accept things as they are, no matter how bad they are. I totally understand and agree with that criticism as it is intended, and at the same time, I totally understand why it is wrong. I don't see the Tao as describing how to tolerate evil, but rather as noting that "evil" is a really bad description in the first place. You need to see the world as it is, and fix what is fixable, to fight all those things that others regard as "evil". If you don't pay attention to the balance points, you end up doing the opposite of what you intend: make rules to keep people from hurting themselves, and you prevent them from defending themselves; make rules to share the wealth, and then there's no wealth to share; and so on. And you can't see those balance points if you aren't at peace with yourself: your own lack of balance gets in the way.

    I don't see most 5's thinking this way. 9's are closer, but they don't intellectualize it the way I do.

    Anyway, enough rambling ... intuition is still grinding through all this. It helps to write it down and see what sticks and what doesn't ...
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is why I tend to feel the 9 fits more, except for the Fi-ish losing of myself over the concerns for others.
    Quick thought: As you reflect on this, are you sure that the "losing of oneself" is a trait that is truly Fi in nature? For example, the INFP 4's would likely disagree, that kind of merging is more of an antithesis to them ... and the INTP 9's as well, with their decided lack of Fi ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    My two favorite 9 links:

    Here

    .
    (Wow.... um.... that is the best description of 9 I've ever seen.... I read every section and it was like reading my biography..... sheez....)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    (Wow.... um.... that is the best description of 9 I've ever seen.... I read every section and it was like reading my biography..... sheez....)
    The author, Susan Reynolds, wrote 'The Everything Enneagram Book', which I just happened to be checking out yesterday. The reviews said it was really good: no nonsense, straightforward, good descriptions. The author isn't strictly an enneagram person, either; she edits, ghostwrites, and writes all different kinds of things, including two (non-enneagram-related) blogs for Psychology Today.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Quick thought: As you reflect on this, are you sure that the "losing of oneself" is a trait that is truly Fi in nature? For example, the INFP 4's would likely disagree, that kind of merging is more of an antithesis to them ... and the INTP 9's as well, with their decided lack of Fi ...
    The phrase was "Fi-ish losing of myself over the concerns for others." The statement doesn't describe Fi, and Fi 4s are simply the polar opposite of the Fi 9s: Fi 4s fear losing themselves.

    Anyway, I've done a lot more reflection and reading of the big orange Personality Types book.

    Some conclusions: 5w6 "describes" me. It synergizes very well with my being an INTJ, and INTJs are very very frequently 5w6 in enneagram. If I were going only by wings, and not core type or integration/disintegration patterns, I'd say 5w6 and that'd be the end of it. But the rest of it only barely matches, assuming I'm a type five. The fears/motivations are wrong. I strive for mastery, but more as a matter of practice/habit, not out of fear. Remember, "mastery" came easily to me, in those fields I found easiest to master, or were fun to master. It was always play, for me.

    So, I went to the integration levels, especially the short-hand version in the appendix (also in PB's 2nd link above), and just read through them for all the types. Most didn't resonate at all. 3 resonated a little bit. 5 resonated a little more. And 9 resonated a lot: I could see myself in levels 1-6. My escapism was only superficially 5's version of escapism. I'd escape (and still do) into my own versions of reality, into parallel worlds, in part to avoid the real world. (Escaping into the INTJ-Ni-movies in my head.) I'd deal with problems by ignoring them. I'd deal with conflict by avoiding it. This lasted well into graduate school, until I focused and finished my Ph.D., and then I regressed a bit when my divorce happened. I've not been through levels 7-9, but in grad school I had a gf who was definitely an INFP 9 in that level 9 disintegration state, full MPD. (She's a large part of why I wasn't focused on my grad school.)

    I don't escape by working on projects, or mastering the rules of D&D (though I definitely did a lot of that), but simply by dissociating and avoiding that which I deemed unpleasant. I just happen to find the nerdy stuff "pleasant", along with lots of other things. Until fairly recently (when I started dancing), I was very much into music, playing piano by myself, listening to music, and just letting the music wash over me. Often I'd use music as part of my escape. It was always my way of centering myself, not that I centered myself with much skill. ... In fact, one of the more interesting things about the 9 is that a 9 always seems to be trying to be centered, the problem being that as the more disintegrated the 9, the more "stupid" the centering: it amounts to ignoring the problem rather than facing it from one's center of balance. And yeah, that's me (or mostly was). I'd do the easy stuff (which would be hard for anyone else) to get by, and ignore the hard stuff.

    So I think I would provisionally say that I am
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #37
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    So this is where it all began...
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  8. #38
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Yes, except upon reflection I'm more 9w8 than 9w1. That's the problem of identifying with so many different types. But I know it's 9w8, because that's the one that can get me in trouble - I just happen to be adept at avoiding situations where the 8 wing can do something badly.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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