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  1. #1
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Differing on descriptions

    Nearly every time I do an MBTI test, I come out as ESTJ. T and J are always strong, and E is often balanced, as is S. I sometimes get ENTJ and INTJ, but never really get ISTJ. But I've begun to think that although aspects of the ESTJ descriptions don't fit me at all, I may still be an ESTJ. Is this possible?

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    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    The tests aren't very helpful.. If I were you, I would take the cognitive function test, which you've probably already taken, and look at your highest-scored functions, and see what two types you most likely would be based on that, then study the four functions those two types use most, and see which type you really identify with based on that.

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    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Yeah Dana's right. The damn tests can only really get close. The entire point of the MBTI tests is to figure out which functions you use. Cut the middle man and do a functions test.

    Even then though, because of the wording, and the differing understanding of the words, we can still give the test the 'wrong' answers.

    What aspects are the ones that "don't fit you at all?"
    we fukin won boys

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    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    FTR, this description fits me much better than most I've read on the ESTJ.

    These bits don't fit me at all (particularly the bold italics):

    Quote Originally Posted by typelogic
    ESTJs are joiners. They seek out like-minded companions in clubs, civic groups, churches and other service organizations. The need for belonging is woven into the fiber of SJs. The family likewise is a central focus for ESTJs, and attendance at such events as weddings, funerals and family reunions is obligatory.
    Tradition is important to the ESTJ. Holidays, birthdays and other annual celebrations are remembered and observed often religiously by this type. The ESTJ is inclined to seek out his roots, to trace the family heritage back to honored ancestors both for a sense of family respectability and for a sense of security and belonging.

  5. #5
    Senior Member developer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Nearly every time I do an MBTI test, I come out as ESTJ. T and J are always strong, and E is often balanced, as is S. I sometimes get ENTJ and INTJ, but never really get ISTJ. But I've begun to think that although aspects of the ESTJ descriptions don't fit me at all, I may still be an ESTJ. Is this possible?
    ESTJ is the type that represents typical male behaviour in Europe and the US. Therefore, it would not be too uncommon for an adult male to test as ESTJ, whatever their real type may be. It may also depend on the profession, which again for males very oftern requires ESTJ thinking an behaviour.

    I am only dropping by occasionally at this forum lately, because my job is keeping me too busy from surfing the internet, but still, from the posts I have seen from your side, I would expect you to be an INTJ or maybe a an ENTJ. You come across as a thoughtful and insightful person, so just keep going and forget those tests.

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    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Nearly every time I do an MBTI test, I come out as ESTJ. T and J are always strong, and E is often balanced, as is S. I sometimes get ENTJ and INTJ, but never really get ISTJ. But I've begun to think that although aspects of the ESTJ descriptions don't fit me at all, I may still be an ESTJ. Is this possible?
    Yes it's possible.

    Have you read the descriptions? I found them far more useful when searching my best fit type than the online tests. Read the descriptions, read lots of descriptions and see what is best fit for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by developer View Post
    ESTJ is the type that represents typical male behaviour in Europe and the US. Therefore, it would not be too uncommon for an adult male to test as ESTJ, whatever their real type may be. It may also depend on the profession, which again for males very oftern requires ESTJ thinking an behaviour.
    Really good point there! I was wondering why so many people who seem not to be ESTJ's do test as ESTJ. That might be answer that ESTJ is the typical male behaviour!

  7. #7
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Nearly every time I do an MBTI test, I come out as ESTJ. T and J are always strong, and E is often balanced, as is S. I sometimes get ENTJ and INTJ, but never really get ISTJ. But I've begun to think that although aspects of the ESTJ descriptions don't fit me at all, I may still be an ESTJ. Is this possible?
    Once you take the free online tests, you have to use your self-knowledge to further discern how correct the results are.

    The ESTJ males I know are very long-winded. They know a LOT of "trivia".
    They look like ENTJs, so I'm not surprised you're having this trouble.

    You probably need to study the difference between NT and SJ.

    SJ tends to be loyal, dependable and traditional. They tend to resist change because they think it's important to preserve tradition. Lots of times they can be antique lovers or history buffs. They are relational people. They have a need to belong to a group.

    NT folks are not so relationship oriented. They tend to be Technical, Competent, Ingenious, Skeptical, Innovative, Non-Conformist. They have a need to be competent.

    This page goes into further depth.
    KTS

  8. #8
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    You probably need to study the difference between NT and SJ.

    SJ tends to be loyal, dependable and traditional. They tend to resist change because they think it's important to preserve tradition. Lots of times they can be antique lovers or history buffs. They are relational people. They have a need to belong to a group.

    NT folks are not so relationship oriented. They tend to be Technical, Competent, Ingenious, Skeptical, Innovative, Non-Conformist. They have a need to be competent.
    I bought Please Understand Me II not so long ago, and read it cover to cover, asking myself throughout which temperament I belonged to. I decided NT > SJ=SP > NF was most likely.

    These buzzwords you use for the NT aren't too helpful for me. This is because I don't know how sceptical I am in comparison with others; how ingenious I am (seriously, who calls themself ingenious?) and innovative (how many people are seriously innovative?). Obviously words like non-conformist describe me well; despite the fact that many my age like subscribe to what I call Nonconformism, I refuse to subscribe to anything. It's merely membership into a group that is, ironically, conforming. By non-conforming, they are conforming to non-conformity. But conformity and anti-conformity never even enter my mind. If I like being part of something, I like it. If not, I don't. I don't actively seek out groups (I detested the clique mentality of high school and college, instead preferring to mingle freely), nor do I actively go against them (otherwise I wouldn't be in the OTC).

    There are things that strike me as against my ideals and characteristics from both NT and SJ (and SP, since I considered I might be ESTP; nonetheless, I won't go into that, because I know I'm not an SP). For the SJ, it's their blindly following tradition. Keirsey speaks of the SP and the NT asking 'why?' to things like holding a knife and fork the way we do. What struck me as right about me for NT was doing something because it made sense; if it doesn't make sense, I don't do it. I do follow tradition. If I see a use for it. I follow the rules. If I see a use for them. I refuse to blindly follow authority because it's there; if it holds up, it is worth following (although I will make every effort to retain my independence and freedom of thought; autonomy is important to me).

    However, certain aspects of the NT simply didn't fit. One of these was their extreme bedraggledness and disconcern for aesthetics. I always attempt to dress well. I shit all over fashion, but I still believe in a tidy appearance, because first impressions count; there is no use denying this. To get the job, you have to look good. To get in with a crowd in order to gain more power, you're gonna have to look flash. Another characterstic of the NT which simply didn't fit me was that they never seem to have any inner convictions. They can never say "I just know this". Note that I will never ever use this when I'm studying philosophy, because a broad, open and doubting mind is a prerequisite for studying it. However, in real life, for practicality's sake, dogmatism and conviction are needed; confidence in your views even if they're not well backed up is necessary; it's a requirement. One must be able to say "I am right" and believe it. So I use this when I know I'm right, even if I haven't got all the evidence to prove it there and then. Another thing is this self-doubt which seems to occupy the NT's mind. I do not self-doubt. I might self-doubt once or twice a year when there is clear evidence that I am failing at something. However, self-doubt for the NT appears to be a big part of their mindset.

    I hope that sheds some light on my dilemma. Perhaps those wiser than I in MBTI lore can help me decipher where I'm making mistakes or misunderstanding the true core of a given type.

  9. #9
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    What struck me as right about me for NT was doing something because it made sense; if it doesn't make sense, I don't do it. I do follow tradition. If I see a use for it. I follow the rules. If I see a use for them. I refuse to blindly follow authority because it's there; if it holds up, it is worth following (although I will make every effort to retain my independence and freedom of thought; autonomy is important to me).
    That could be ESTJ.

    But look at what you're doing. you don't follow tradition, really. You blatantly just said you don't follow authority just because it's there; you only follow what makes sense! Throwing out tradition if it doesn't make sense is not following tradition!

    ESTJ actually does have the sort of attitude you describe. Basically, you learn what works and what doesn't work. You also want structure and organization, to make a process sensible and efficient. Many times the organization has already developed a process that is workable.

    But Te is the predominate factor, *not* Si. Si is a reference point (hence sticking with "what already is" or "what already has worked") but if Te can be convinced a change is necessary, ESTJ will quickly implement the change and then enforce it as the new standard.

    Still, xNTJ also has Te as dominant/secondary, so you need to consider those.

    (As an aside, now that I am thinking about it, male ISTJs are funny -- probably the most wavering/indecisive of the male STs. Basically, I think their need for specific full detail before making decisions is coupled with not wanting to be responsible for making the wrong choice, so they usually hem and haw unless they are in an area of competence, where all the data can be quantified. )


    However, certain aspects of the NT simply didn't fit. One of these was their extreme bedraggledness and disconcern for aesthetics. I always attempt to dress well. I shit all over fashion, but I still believe in a tidy appearance, because first impressions count; there is no use denying this. To get the job, you have to look good. To get in with a crowd in order to gain more power, you're gonna have to look flash.
    Just because there is more tendency for NT to look shoddy or be unconcerned about fashion doesn't mean that individual NTs cannot be concerned about their appearance or about fashion. Not all NT's look shoddy.

    Male INTPs are probably the worst, to be honest... because they generally don't care nor see value most the time in developing an eye for clothes. But it doesn't mean they can't develop it, especially if they find an important reason to do so. They just don't gravitate towards it.

    xNTJ will probably be your best dressers in the "professional" sense, since they often have motivation enough to want to look respectable (to get what they want in life), look competent, provide proper challenge to their peers at work, etc. INTJ women are very well put-together, usually. Note that your combo here is Te/Ni/Se/Fi -- so the Te uses clothes logically, to accomplish their purposes (and won't let them undermine how competently they're perceived by others), Se has the tactile/visual sensation qualities, and Fi expresses personal values/tastes.

    Most aesthetic probably would be ENTP, which likes to dabble in everything external... clothes being one of those things. Coupled with their general amorousness and need to move through social circles, they might very well develop something with flash, that is attractive to others.


    Another characterstic of the NT which simply didn't fit me was that they never seem to have any inner convictions. They can never say "I just know this". Note that I will never ever use this when I'm studying philosophy, because a broad, open and doubting mind is a prerequisite for studying it. However, in real life, for practicality's sake, dogmatism and conviction are needed; confidence in your views even if they're not well backed up is necessary; it's a requirement. One must be able to say "I am right" and believe it.
    If you were naturally an ST type, would you even need to think through this? And would you approach it the same way? Wouldn't you start with, "I can't make any decisions unless I'm sure about what I'm doing... yet I've learned I had to have a broad,open, doubting mind" etc.? See the order you approached things in? You started with NT, then logicked your way to ST... NOT the inverse.

    Lots of NTs also do not remain abstract, especially the NTJ. They learn early or late that, to actually accomplish anything and further their own learning/competence, they'll need to make decisions. NTPs will agonize over it, but NTJs are very prone to make the decisions as a matter of course. (My INTJ drives me nutty, he's constantly making decisions or pushing for decisions, sometimes when it doesn't even make sense, when he gets anxious about deadlines and project goals.)

    Another thing is this self-doubt which seems to occupy the NT's mind. I do not self-doubt. I might self-doubt once or twice a year when there is clear evidence that I am failing at something. However, self-doubt for the NT appears to be a big part of their mindset.
    Again, talk to some NTJ types. NTPs are riddled with self-doubt. NTJs will LOOK at least on the surface to be very confident and sure of themselves.

    Perhaps those wiser than I in MBTI lore can help me decipher where I'm making mistakes or misunderstanding the true core of a given type.
    No, I think you've managed to befuddle both yourself AND the rest of us.

    You know what I get most of all when I see all these posts?

    You think too much, that's what. How many threads have you created on this topic so far?

    You think so long and hard you confuse the issue because you're not determining any "key data" and instead prioritizing all of it.

    Figuring out your type is going to be easier than you probably have made it. (although yes, there are some who just are hard to type, in general.) I'd just keep an eye on myself as I went throughout my day and see what function I automatically use. Then I'd see what internal function I use to support it. Don't THINK about it all, just observe yourself through a detached third-party view... your behavior as well as the pattern of your thoughts.

    See if that reflects at all upon what matters to you.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #10
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I bought Please Understand Me II not so long ago, and read it cover to cover, asking myself throughout which temperament I belonged to. I decided NT > SJ=SP > NF was most likely.

    These buzzwords you use for the NT aren't too helpful for me. This is because I don't know how sceptical I am in comparison with others; how ingenious I am (seriously, who calls themself ingenious?) and innovative (how many people are seriously innovative?). Obviously words like non-conformist describe me well; despite the fact that many my age like subscribe to what I call Nonconformism, I refuse to subscribe to anything. It's merely membership into a group that is, ironically, conforming. By non-conforming, they are conforming to non-conformity. But conformity and anti-conformity never even enter my mind. If I like being part of something, I like it. If not, I don't. I don't actively seek out groups (I detested the clique mentality of high school and college, instead preferring to mingle freely), nor do I actively go against them (otherwise I wouldn't be in the OTC).

    There are things that strike me as against my ideals and characteristics from both NT and SJ (and SP, since I considered I might be ESTP; nonetheless, I won't go into that, because I know I'm not an SP). For the SJ, it's their blindly following tradition. Keirsey speaks of the SP and the NT asking 'why?' to things like holding a knife and fork the way we do. What struck me as right about me for NT was doing something because it made sense; if it doesn't make sense, I don't do it. I do follow tradition. If I see a use for it. I follow the rules. If I see a use for them. I refuse to blindly follow authority because it's there; if it holds up, it is worth following (although I will make every effort to retain my independence and freedom of thought; autonomy is important to me).

    However, certain aspects of the NT simply didn't fit. One of these was their extreme bedraggledness and disconcern for aesthetics. I always attempt to dress well. I shit all over fashion, but I still believe in a tidy appearance, because first impressions count; there is no use denying this. To get the job, you have to look good. To get in with a crowd in order to gain more power, you're gonna have to look flash. Another characterstic of the NT which simply didn't fit me was that they never seem to have any inner convictions. They can never say "I just know this". Note that I will never ever use this when I'm studying philosophy, because a broad, open and doubting mind is a prerequisite for studying it. However, in real life, for practicality's sake, dogmatism and conviction are needed; confidence in your views even if they're not well backed up is necessary; it's a requirement. One must be able to say "I am right" and believe it. So I use this when I know I'm right, even if I haven't got all the evidence to prove it there and then. Another thing is this self-doubt which seems to occupy the NT's mind. I do not self-doubt. I might self-doubt once or twice a year when there is clear evidence that I am failing at something. However, self-doubt for the NT appears to be a big part of their mindset.

    I hope that sheds some light on my dilemma. Perhaps those wiser than I in MBTI lore can help me decipher where I'm making mistakes or misunderstanding the true core of a given type.
    Just based on how strongly you feel about conforming, I would say you are definitely not an SJ. You are most probably an NT.

    I'm not sure what that inner conviction thing is. Keirsey's probably wrong on that. I know he has a couple of other things wrong. I'm always sure I'm right.

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