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  1. #1
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Default Dad's Enneatype: Five???

    He doesn't seem like one to me, but when he took the test, that was his result. Here's some info about him:

    - He's an INTP. Not a super-stereotypical one (he's tested as ISFP and INFP before, and chose INTP because he didn't relate to the other descriptions), but when you get to know him, it makes sense. For example, with people he knows well and believes will take his advice to heart, he corrects people's logic in very stereotypically INTP-ish ways. For example, if someone generalizes, he'll go "Now wait a second..." and reminds them that their statement isn't accurate in all cases.

    - He has, in his lifetime, been a real estate appraiser, a special ed teacher, and a nonprofit administrator. Currently, he's the executive director of an education-related nonprofit in my hometown. His educational path towards that was kind of bizarre - i.e. he flunked out of his first year of college (because he had lived in the Philippines before that and dealt with his culture shock by doing a sh*t-ton of drugs), then majored in art, then majored in Arts Management (? i think?), and now he is where he is today. I don't get the impression that his work is as important to him as his family, or internal things. "It's my job, and I like it." As opposed to my mom (INFJ), who teaches and performs music for a living. I don't think she could live without music and teaching, but my dad could definitely live with a different job.

    - He used to be an amateur painter, then put his own creativity into his work, and then this one website that's like a radio station mixed with Twitter (so he used it like a short but ridiculously creative music-sharing blog), and now he's learning how to play the ukulele. He has enjoyed all of this stuff. I think what matters most to him is the creative aspect, and not the actual thing in itself.

    - Even though he has very few friends outside of work, and even though he prefers sitting and reading at home to going out and socializing, when he's in a controlled social environment, he absolutely LOVES to schmooze. I didn't even realize he was an introvert at first, because when he and my mom and I are at little social gatherings and we tell him we want to leave, he'll take like twenty minutes to finish up conversations with people, and so we'll have to tear him away from them. His Fe is VERY well developed!!

    - On a related note, given a choice between quiet routine (e.g. dinner in front of the TV watching Iron Chef) and something lively and new (e.g. a social event), he will ALWAYS choose quiet routine. I wouldn't associate love of routine with INTPs, but there you go.

    - His philosophy is that everyone can always be better at anything -- he reads a lot of self-help books and likes to share advice and tidbits with me and my mom. Not sure whether he does this with other people, because like I mentioned earlier, he doesn't have a lot of friends.

    - Apparently, so says my mom, he is the type of person who lies awake all night worrying about presentations he has to do the next day. VERY perfectionistic, and definitely a worrier. Similarly worry-prone to my mother, who has a 6 fix IMO -- and a lot more worry-prone than me.

    - He loves learning new things. He can spend hours every day on Wikipedia, or reading Wired magazine, just soaking up all the information, and then he can tell everyone exactly what was in there in a very boring but scholarly way.

    - He's one of the most warm and friendly people I've met - and I certainly don't get a seclusion-from-the-world feeling from him at all. His sense of humor is totally goofy most of the time - e.g. making rude jokes and then looking befuddledly around the room like "What did I do??" - but his INTP humor comes out when we're watching, say, Emo Philips comedy routines, and he just about dies laughing at jokes relating to necrophilia...

    - One time on this forum, whatever was talking about how she walks down the road like she's on the set of "Sesame Street". My dad does that too - always with a little smile! I'd say that, if my default mood is Neutral/Friendly, his default mood is Neutral/Happy.

    - He has these sentimental moments sometimes - especially when we're at a family dinner - when he'll point out how we're all together, with this wonderful meal, etc, and how thankful he is for it. Really, really sappy, kind of Fe-ish, and he always means it. Like something out of a Hallmark card, lol.



    So... none of this says 5 to me. Thoughts/ideas, anyone?
    Last edited by EJCC; 03-04-2015 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Minor edits to make it more accurate
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  2. #2
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Um... no ideas? None at all?

    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  3. #3
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    your dad sounds like my INTP dad

    fwiw, i think my dad's a 5 (w6, though lately i hear wings are out of style, lol)

    i am no enneagram expert at all, but with people who don't obviously fit into any one enneatype i think it's potentially useful to use the enneagram institute's boiling down of the types to fear and desire...

    1
    Basic Fear: Of being corrupt/evil, defective
    Basic Desire: To be good, to have integrity, to be balanced
    2
    Basic Fear: Of being unwanted, unworthy of being loved
    Basic Desire: To feel loved
    3
    Basic Fear: Of being worthless
    Basic Desire: To feel valuable and worthwhile
    4
    Basic Fear: That they have no identity or personal significance
    Basic Desire: To find themselves and their significance (to create an
    identity)
    5
    Basic Fear: Being useless, helpless, or incapable
    Basic Desire: To be capable and competent
    6
    Basic Fear: Of being without support and guidance
    Basic Desire: To have security and support
    7
    Basic Fear: Of being deprived and in pain
    Basic Desire: To be satisfied and content—to have their needs
    fulfilled
    8
    Basic Fear: Of being harmed or controlled by others
    Basic Desire: To protect themselves (to be in control of their own life
    and destiny)
    9
    Basic Fear: Of loss and separation
    Basic Desire: To have inner stability "peace of mind"

    i thought that my dad was a 6 at first, because he's quite a skeptic and very concerned about security. but upon greater analysis, he does not demonstrate the 6 flipside of desiring loyalty and support - he'd rather do things himself - and i don't see his primary motivation as a fear of being without protection - more like a fear of losing what he has. and that really approaches the 5 basic fear/desires more, in that he does not want to be rendered incapable. he also really is very 5ish in a ton of ways. my little brother, also an e5 INTP, leans a lot more w4 and looks more like an e5 from the outside. he's really creative - both he and dad are really good, creative guitarists.

    so while none of what you wrote seems explicitly 5, none of it seems to obviously contradict 5 or suggest another type, either. do you have any thoughts about what he might be, if not 5?

    oh, and about routine - both my dad and brother have quite a few little routine quirks. dad, when presented with a more efficient set of directions to take driving somewhere, will still prefer and take the route that he knows. my brother is very specific about certain things like his organizational methods and washroom routines, too. seems odd for Ps, doesn't it

  4. #4
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    i am no enneagram expert at all, but with people who don't obviously fit into any one enneatype i think it's potentially useful to use the enneagram institute's boiling down of the types to fear and desire...

    etc.
    I'm not sure if any of those sound like him... Here's my basic thought, of what his basic fears/desires are (and these could be off base - it's not like he talks about this sort of thing much):
    Basic fear: Losing the ability to fulfill his basic desire (mentioned below)???
    Basic desire: Doing his own thing, learning, solving problems, stimulating his mind

    Wow, that sounds 5-ish. I feel dumb.
    so while none of what you wrote seems explicitly 5, none of it seems to obviously contradict 5 or suggest another type, either. do you have any thoughts about what he might be, if not 5?
    Here is an example of something I've read about type 5 - and I've read a TON of descriptions that were like this:
    Your vice is avarice. This can manifest as a greedy hording of yourself, your time, your energy or your things. Be careful of your tendency to observe the world through a peephole. It can keep you isolated and out of touch with human concerns. Be aware of your tendency to withdraw into your ivory tower of ideas. Others may start to see you as arrogant and unfeeling. Being dispassionate and ‘cool as a cucumber’ is good in an emergency but hard on relationships.
    I have never seen my dad like this at all. I would never describe him as withdrawn or reserved or cool - even if he is more reserved, and even if he doesn't talk about himself all that much. I'd describe him as cheerful but matter-of-fact, curious, ridiculous (in a type 7-ish way) when happy and hyper-condescending when upset. I didn't really associate any of that with 5-ness.

    But if this has no relevance with regard to type, then that explains why no one replied to this thread for days I guess I'm just that ignorant.
    oh, and about routine - both my dad and brother have quite a few little routine quirks. dad, when presented with a more efficient set of directions to take driving somewhere, will still prefer and take the route that he knows. my brother is very specific about certain things like his organizational methods and washroom routines, too. seems odd for Ps, doesn't it
    Yeah, I definitely see that in my dad. Big time
    Last edited by EJCC; 09-22-2010 at 02:45 PM.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  5. #5
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    lol no, i don't think you're ignorant. what i do think is that some enneagram descriptions get so wrapped up in theory and correlations with things like the 7 sins that they forget to allow for flexibility. after all, when you only have 9 types, how smart is it to try to describe each type's attributes to a T? there are what, 6.7 billion people on earth? that's a hell of a lot to all fit into the enneagram paradigm.

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC
    Your vice is avarice. This can manifest as a greedy hording of yourself, your time, your energy or your things. Be careful of your tendency to observe the world through a peephole. It can keep you isolated and out of touch with human concerns. Be aware of your tendency to withdraw into your ivory tower of ideas. Others may start to see you as arrogant and unfeeling. Being dispassionate and ‘cool as a cucumber’ is good in an emergency but hard on relationships.
    I have never seen my dad like this at all. I would never describe him as withdrawn or reserved or cool - even if he is more reserved, and even if he doesn't talk about himself all that much. I'd describe him as cheerful but matter-of-fact, curious, ridiculous (in a type 7-ish way) when happy and hyper-condescending when upset. I didn't really associate any of that with 5-ness.
    hehe, my dad can be ridiculous too. my brother... haha he just gets dramatic. though both are more overtly reserved. i don't accidentally want to try to convince you that he's something he is not, but being matter-of-fact, curious, and condescending all sounds 5ish to me.

    i don't see much avarice, as in greed, in my dad and brother either. any hording would seem to manifest mostly in the way they tend to their stuff (reluctant to share, for fear of someone else messing it up) and the way they tend to adhere to a paradigm - when they think they're right about something, you'd have to move a mountain to make them budge. i do see the "ivory tower" thing though. they can both be quite arrogant, and sometimes just not really care about the people aspects of stuff. though my dad is in a public service profession, and my brother is ridiculously nice to his friends, so it's an interesting balance.

  6. #6
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Reviving this thread because I've started to consider 6 for him.

    The conversation that inspired that re-consideration is below, in the spoiler tags. (Copied and pasted from The Rant Thread.)



    I emailed my dad the Enneagram Institute descriptions of type 5 and type 6 and asked him which one he related to more. Here's how he replied:

    I think that I'm at least mostly a 5. Among other things this seems to be more me -

    Basic Fear: Being useless, helpless, or incapable
    Basic Desire: To be capable and competent

    Than this -

    Basic Fear: Of being without support and guidance
    Basic Desire: To have security and support

    But I do see how a case could be made for me being a 6. Especially that ping pong ball analogy at the end of the 6 description. Just seems like more of a stretch.

    5.5?
    The ping-pong analogy was this: "Until they can get in touch with their own inner guidance, Sixes are like a ping-pong ball that is constantly shuttling back and forth between whatever influence is hitting the hardest in any given moment. Because of this reactivity, no matter what we say about Sixes, the opposite is often also as true."

    I will say that some of that "ping-pong" nature, if my dad is a 5, could be the fact that he resists categorization and questions categories in a way that is very typical of INTPs IME. About once a year he'll email me and question his INTP typing, and I'll have to re-explain JCF and the differences between Ti and Te, Ti and Fi, etc.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
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    want to ask me something? go for it!

  7. #7
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Regarding what's under the spoiler- "I don't want to be brainwashed"- are you sure your dad wasn't being sardonic? If you're pretty sure he meant it earnestly (like, it truly was about being concerned it might influence him too much), then I agree with what JtM said- but at the same time, what's more important is whether or not it's typical of him to say things like that. If he relates more to the e5 basic fear/desire than the e6 basic fear/desire, then he's probably more e5. I would think.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  8. #8
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Regarding what's under the spoiler- "I don't want to be brainwashed"- are you sure your dad wasn't being sardonic? If you're pretty sure he meant it earnestly (like, it truly was about being concerned it might influence him too much), then I agree with what JtM said- but at the same time, what's more important is whether or not it's typical of him to say things like that. If he relates more to the e5 basic fear/desire than the e6 basic fear/desire, then he's probably more e5. I would think.
    I didn't remember him saying anything like that to me before -- but he was definitely not being sarcastic. He may have been using a slightly stronger word than he really meant, but the general meaning was sincere. He is very, VERY idealistic and politically-minded.

    My inclination is that this is all due to a strong 6 wing. I've seen this very frequently on the forum with the 4w5 / 5w4 border area, so it wouldn't surprise me that the same thing would happen here.

    I've had some moments under stress that have been so goddamn 2-disintegrating-to-8 that it almost made me question my type. But then I read somewhere that people apparently tend to disintegrate to both their wing disintegration point and their main disintegration point at the same time? Or either/or, depending on the situation? Which ended up changing my mind. It would also explain why I tend to see my dad as disintegrating to 7 and 3 simultaneously when he's stressed out.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!
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  9. #9
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Thought I'd weigh in @EJCC

    He sounds a bit like my ISTP Dad. He's not creative and isn't quite as mushy as that, but a lot of it is very familiar. My Dad's got a ton of Fe too and is very friendly, chatty and ambiverted, while still being reserved and loving quiet time. He's also got goofiness in droves. He's a 9w8 so/sp though, which took a while for me to figure out. They're not a common type and I think the 8 wing confused me, as he's not angry or controlling at all on the surface. Once I realised it though, I see the underlying 8-ness everywhere.

    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte
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