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  1. #11
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Yeah, me too (to the bolded). But my values are kind of set in stone. If I didn't have my values....how could I have a personality even? I think I'd be a hedonistic anarchistic nihilist...
    Yeeeeeeeah. Rule out ENTP

    Seriously. Rule it out.

    Everyone has values but not everyone has them set in stone, that's a beloved Fi thang. I have values, I like to think they're noble and strong but I would never ever consider them set in stone, there is always new information that could come along to shift my view, I never close my options that way. Values are a personal thing but I consider how they fit into society, not just my life.


    Could you clarify what you mean by focusing things through my own lens? That kinda goes against what I'm usually known for (looking at the other side, often NOT my own).
    Like you said above, by through your own lens I meant with your own values.


    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    What I was referring to is that NTs usually have limited patience for discussing morals and ethics
    Happy to discuss them, get very annoyed when someone attempts to use their personal moral stance as universal. Get even more annoyed when people ignore objective facts and other relevant data because it goes against their subjective morals.

    It's a biggy in terms of NTP v NFP.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    There's another side to the story, often, one which adds shades of grey.
    Whose?

    Overall, it's frustrating and tiresome to add those shades of grey in, but I've found them to be useful to navigate this world better. And, to give me a better understanding of [insert subject that I had a strong opinion on]. Its not that I change my opinion as such, just the vigour with which I defend it, and the absoluteness of it. I can see how it would not be the same for others, how different things are important to others and I can see the value in their pov. That automatically somewhat adds a couple of shades of grey to your own opinion. And no..it doesn't mean losing yourself, I've found it to enrich how I think, really.
    What do you mean exactly? To partially assimilated other people's views onto your own? I am aware different things are important to others...I can see a very subjective value in their POVs, depending on the case, yes...but so what? How does any of that relate to OUR point of view?

    It's not losing myself to hear some other person's point of view. It's losing myself to change my POV because other people think differently and ridicule/attack/have contempt towards me.

    I've experienced some minor betrayals of what I believed in in the past...and I was left empty and in a silent denial - "I've done nothing wrong since, hey, other people do it too". I mean, there is a thing called the law that already covers most crimes....if people have no strong opinions outside the law...what substance is there? Why care about anything in minute detail anyway?

    *shrugs* That's just how I roll these days though.
    Are you happier? Personally my values are the only thing I take pride in myself (since I have no accomplishments in life). To question the point of having them in the first place is a heavy blow in my sense of self. I'd feel empty otherwise. Like a robot.

    As for the NT's, I can see them taking your bluntness the best, as they themselves probably feel relieved they can do the same around you
    What I was referring to is that NTs usually have limited patience for discussing morals and ethics
    Yeah, NTs tend to not be pansies and it is refreshing. But it still takes a certain type of NT to care about ethics and morals yes.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Yeeeeeeeah. Rule out ENTP

    Seriously. Rule it out.

    Everyone has values but not everyone has them set in stone, that's a beloved Fi thang. I have values, I like to think they're noble and strong but I would never ever consider them set in stone, there is always new information that could come along to shift my view, I never close my options that way. Values are a personal thing but I consider how they fit into society, not just my life..

    Well to be perfectly honest I'm exaggerating here. There are a few scenarios where they are pretty much set in stone. I'm not the kind of person to ignore new data (they weren't written in stone and sat there for thousands of years...it's more like I wrote them with a pen and over time the ink gets faint and write them again incorporating more and more data and reasons).

    But why do you think I so consistently type NTP then? I do believe I have Ti according to the descriptions (don't care what people say about NeFiTeSi's not being able to use Ti) and I think I never knew myself as better as I now know. I've taken like 9 different tests.

  4. #14
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    like i've said before....a type 8 enfp.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  5. #15
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    like i've said before....a type 8 enfp.
    Can't I be something else? Something healthy and cool?

  6. #16
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    by unhealthy do you mean that you feel depressed by the rigidity of your values?

    would you say that by nature type 8 is more rigid? more te? more structured and absolute? perhaps you just structure your values in such a way that makes you come off differently than other enfps that take a more free flowing stance... ??
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  7. #17
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Well to be perfectly honest I'm exaggerating here. There are a few scenarios where they are pretty much set in stone. I'm not the kind of person to ignore new data (they weren't written in stone and sat there for thousands of years...it's more like I wrote them with a pen and over time the ink gets faint and write them again incorporating more and more data and reasons).
    That's definitely stronger than how I'd describe myself when it comes to ethics. Either you've seen yourself as ENFP for so long you expect that's how you should be, or you really are in which case ENTP is pretty unlikely.

    Bendable morals seems to be a common ENTP thing, I don't mean that in a bad way, just flexible way, and using Fe to find at common interests at the expense of individuals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    But why do you think I so consistently type NTP then? I do believe I have Ti according to the descriptions (don't care what people say about NeFiTeSi's not being able to use Ti) and I think I never knew myself as better as I now know. I've taken like 9 different tests.
    Tests are crap? Seriously I consistently type as INTP. In fact I'm more likely to get a reading of xNFP than ENTP. Plus if you think you have Ti the test is highly likely to agree with you... it's simply calculating your answers.

  8. #18
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Whose?



    What do you mean exactly? To partially assimilated other people's views onto your own? I am aware different things are important to others...I can see a very subjective value in their POVs, depending on the case, yes...but so what? How does any of that relate to OUR point of view?

    It's not losing myself to hear some other person's point of view. It's losing myself to change my POV because other people think differently and ridicule/attack/have contempt towards me.

    I've experienced some minor betrayals of what I believed in in the past...and I was left empty and in a silent denial - "I've done nothing wrong since, hey, other people do it too". I mean, there is a thing called the law that already covers most crimes....if people have no strong opinions outside the law...what substance is there? Why care about anything in minute detail anyway?



    Are you happier? Personally my values are the only thing I take pride in myself (since I have no accomplishments in life). To question the point of having them in the first place is a heavy blow in my sense of self. I'd feel empty otherwise. Like a robot.



    Yeah, NTs tend to not be pansies and it is refreshing. But it still takes a certain type of NT to care about ethics and morals yes.

    Whose? other people's
    The thing is, I just consider it learning to see the world from all angles. Things that I hadn't even considered. Just becoz I strongly feel about something, doesn't mean I should be deaf to new info or new insights. And yes, I do assimilate those in there, though often I'll adjust them according to how *I* feel about those new insights, to then add to my repertoire

    And yeah..since I do that, I feel a lot more at peace and happier. Before I fought a lot with myself and others which was exhausting and draining. I find that understanding where they're coming from, is way less draining. There are still pure values I'll always adhere to, but now I have a bufferzone...I can see that exercising those values that black and white in the reality we live in is..well, unrealistic. Or rather, getting frustrated at the world not matching the world you envision, according to your values, is pointless. You can inspire people to go the way you consider to be right, but I often find that those same people inspire me back with perspectives I'd never considered before...which leads to those shades of grey I was talking about

    I too however cannot live without my values, and ignoring them, just for the sake of reality, is like dying. It's like having that lifeforce burn out inside of you..like becoming a robot, as you said. So I do understand that. I just have learned to look at the things that aren't at first glance in agreeance with my values with a genuine curiosity of how it works, *before* I write it off. Coz often there's hidden gems in there, that do feel right to me, and that I can use to reinterpret the perspective I was handed, allowing me to further integrate my values into reality and vice versa
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  9. #19
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Can I be gray?
    Sure, why not?

    Also, if you feel that camaraderie type of feeling most with NTs, there's nothing wrong with that. You would not be the first person in any of the temperaments to feel more drawn to and comfortable around a different temperament than your own.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    by unhealthy do you mean that you feel depressed by the rigidity of your values?

    would you say that by nature type 8 is more rigid? more te? more structured and absolute? perhaps you just structure your values in such a way that makes you come off differently than other enfps that take a more free flowing stance... ??
    Rigid? I never saw myself as rigid at all. I don't go out there forcing people to do things the way I think they should or anything.

    It just seems ENFPs were geared to be 7s. And there are so few ENFPs 8 that maybe it's just not natural and creates mental dissonance.

    I don't think Te makes my values more absolute. Values are in themselves absolutes (this is wrong, this is right). I do convey them in a Te manner though possibly. I communicate Fi values in Te manner.

    Instead of saying "please don't hurt the dog" I'll say "hey dick head, you wanna get your ass kicked?!". A person would then focus on the use of expressions like "dick head" and showing aggressiveness and label me as a dick. That's the story of my life.

    And you ask : why then, don't you change the way how you deliver the message? The answer is simple...life has taught me (and that is what enneagram is all about I guess) that people will ignore things if you are too nice. You need to show them there are consequences to being bad. Hint at it anyway. I can pride myself on having always been a good person according to my standards and of most people around me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Satine View Post
    Whose? other people's
    The thing is, I just consider it learning to see the world from all angles. Things that I hadn't even considered. Just becoz I strongly feel about something, doesn't mean I should be deaf to new info or new insights. And yes, I do assimilate those in there, though often I'll adjust them according to how *I* feel about those new insights, to then add to my repertoire ....
    Well then you do nothing different compared to what I do. I don't know how I come across on this forum...but I'm not a butthurt FP that doesn't listen to what other people have to say. People compliment me on my listening and understanding actually.

    I'm just saying, I guess, that deep down...it takes a lot to change the logic of how I see things. It takes a very intelligent and wise person...and even then, there are things that just don't make sense to me.

    That's only because I spent my whole life philosophizing with myself and others to arrive to these conclusions and values. I read books, I chat with people....so I always have a logical line of reasoning to justify my values. Or I try to. I'm always looking to be proven "wrong" though. I want to be happy...if my values don't make me and other people happy...then there is no point to them.

    If there is one thing that is more accurate than arrogant or judgmental for me...it's lacking faith that others put as much thought as I do into their opinions. I don't just believe in it though...it seems I'm constantly proved right which in turn makes feel more lonely and bitter and adamant about being aggressive with people and urging them to think and to stop hurting each other etc. Murder and rape are covered by law...so I try to go deeper...you could call me morally pedantic I guess.

    Trust me, I'd love to know how to not be though. It doesn't bring me any joy...and in my self-importance I guess it makes me think of that phrase "ignorance is bliss". It's a burden trying and being morally perfect. But what is the choice? How can I want an ideal world if I don't try being ideal myself?


    lol, I just noticed I went on a ramble there. I'll stop now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    Sure, why not?

    Also, if you feel that camaraderie type of feeling most with NTs, there's nothing wrong with that. You would not be the first person in any of the temperaments to feel more drawn to and comfortable around a different temperament than your own.
    The comforting part with NTs is that they don't tend to hide behind subjectiveness as much. Which ironically seems a lot more about sharing and communicating and living harmoniously as a group then "don't judge me" or "everyone has their opinions". No shit everyone has their opinions! Then go be a hermit somewhere else if you don't care about the opinions of other people around you. If you don't care about bettering ourselves as a group. NTs don't shy away from debate, they believe in having their opinions put to the test.

    As much as an individualist as I am and even though I have tremendous respect for individuality....I think the point of individuality is defeated if everyone is clouded by fear of being judged and doesn't like to communicate and share their insights with others. The individual often just wants to be understood, but he/she also has to want to make others understand.

    Otherwise what's the fucking point?!



    Rambling again, sorry :P

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