User Tag List

First 10181920

Results 191 to 198 of 198

  1. #191
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w7 sx/so
    Socionics
    N/A
    Posts
    1,200

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Serge View Post
    I also tend to nit pick details and ask for definitions (I tend to have a definition that I like to use because that's what the word implies to me but it might be vastly different than what most people think. For example, the word nice guy doesn't mean spineless to me, it means someone who is assertive, confident, and all that. Because I think a nice guy has to be truthful to himself. And "nice guys" by normal people's definitions are kind of dicks in actuality)
    Haha, yeah, I'm "Friends" with this.

    Also, I tend to re-evaluate my morals and values every once in a while, I look at them to make sure they are logically consistent.
    Clear Fe and Ti. Attachments tend to "blur" logic["I have X money to survive this week but I so want this little kitty!" -_-"] so I see it as mandatory to "Ti"---as well as seeking the most universal "attachments" such as "survival".


    [*]Why is my Ti so developed? Is it because certain introverts tend to lean on their introverted functions?
    I also want this answered. I have had many "nerdy" INFJ friends, though these males AND females have both the social ability AND the academic ability to be flexible. Some were even highly manipulative but rare have I seen them having trouble socializing relative to other INXX's.

    Seeing as that you have Je[interaction function] as your Auxiliary, I believe introversion has played a significant role in this. It's possible to do Ni Fe, but easier to do Ni alone. And with the lack of external output, Ti could have substituted for your Judging function---allowing a more "exercised" Ti. As oppose to this condition, Ti Ne does not need interaction.

    Perhaps if you did more Fe, you will "change" and be more "charitable" and idealistic, though perhaps not.



    Or it could be something called the "Tertiary disease".

    1. Why do some INTP's have demonic Si?
    2. ENFP's with killer Te?
    3. What else?

    If I have Fe, I care about people in general but I don't really care about people who aren't important to me. Is this a lack of Fe or just undeveloped Fe or perhaps I'm understanding the function wrong when combined with Ni.
    Fe can only dictate values to a certain degree. Look at INFJ scientists. Different Ni leads to different ideal perception.

    I handle disagreements by confronting the person and arguing. For someone who loves harmony (Fe) I can certainly abandon it when I feel wronged. I don't tend to have such an acute reaction for other people (but then again, I'm not close to a lot of people)
    An ESFJ(Fe dom) friend of mine is very confrontational. Inferior Je are those that tend to dislike confrontations.
    Is the vast difference between my view of what an INFJ is and what an INFJ actually is caused by the fact that I'm an INFJ male and most INFJs are female?
    Always a factor, yes.

    My ability to make contingency plans. Ni/Fe/Ti/Se can do that as well?
    I think that's it for now. (It's nearly 6 am right now, my post may not be coherent in all places)
    Contingency planning is a conscious natural "skill" of Te. But does this mean that an INTP can't do contingency plans? I do it all the time, especially with my Ne of looking for possible errors.

    "What if I lost my wallet, I'll do X. What If Z, Y!"

    The difference is that it's less natural because I think I'd have to go to my Inferior J(Pi Je) functions.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This would appear to be directly opposed to Fe. One of the many reasons that I think it likely you prefer Fi over Fe.
    No, It is not opposed. Fe will "strike back" and strike aggressively if perceived justice is violated. The added boost of having Dominant Fe allows better control over emotions and better confidence in seeking external organization(Je).

    Fe Doms are actually quite "good" with confrontations as it is a Je function. Inferior Je, on the other hand, are the ones with the relation of "opposition against confrontation".



    The person who I know who cared for others the most was a "T". I don't believe "will to do 'good'" is directly correlated with type.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Coming back to Fi - Fi is a decision making process that is based on your internal values. It is about making decisions based on your core beliefs, personal integrity, morals, and deeply held values. I like to think of it as your conscience.
    And Ti is also "conscience" perhaps. Just a bit less value based.



    @SERGE
    (Si Ne)
    I wanted to recommend you a simple way of learning which functions do you actively use extensively at any period of time.

    (Si)
    I, myself, am conscious of which I significantly use daily and during the times I use them. My thoughts go "I am using Si right now." Which is actually currently true and I also sense the slight reduction of "mental energy" brought upon by the usage of a lower preferred and undeveloped function(Si).

    (Ti Ne)
    The only "key" to this is mental alertness(Ti) and a significant attention to detail(Se). Also, probably Ni.

    (Ti Ne)
    probably...

    (Ti Ne)
    I understand that you have Inferior Se. See if you find errors in that perceiving cognition. It could prove your inferiority with the function.

    (Si)
    I am also well aware of how much "if's" and "what if's" I make during speech and during my thought processes. They "energize" me and drive my interest in the realms of theoretical thinking.

    (Ti)
    It's quite simple.

  2. #192
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Contingency planning... anyone can do it. But who has it as a way of life?

    I'd actually expect that INFJs have their own version of contingency planning, and for it to be a large part of their functioning. In INTJs it's called contingency planning because that's what you call the business of coming up with early warnings and groups of available alternative pathways for systems. But actual real contingency planning elevated to the level of strategy is an art form. One doesn't just come up with contingencies, not just ways to handle what could happen, one comes up with what will happen. INFJs, purportedly, do that on people. Seemingly while the content is vastly different, the cognitive approach is... the same? And just as INTJs don't have just to think about impersonal systems, INFJs don't have just to prophecy on people.


    Also, in the context of Jungian cognitive hoohah, "over-developed" or just "developed" means "conscious", which means available at times of your choosing. But how would anyone actually measure the extent to which one of their supporting functions dominates consciousness? One would presumably have to measure how minimised is the functioning of the dominant.

    The easier alternative is to say that people can readily learn behaviours that emphasise the workings of their lesser functions, especially if there is positive environmental support for those functions.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #193
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w7 sx/so
    Socionics
    N/A
    Posts
    1,200

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Also, in the context of Jungian cognitive hoohah, "over-developed" or just "developed" means "conscious", which means available at times of your choosing.
    Where did you find this definition? My understanding is that "development" means a more comfortable and capable use of a certain function. Where in Inferior Je is initially inept at people management, they become "developed" and capable.

    In Inferior[ticket to undevelopment]Fe, it's the often cause of false judgment of other's intentions, etc.

    Conscious does not mean "available at times of your choosing". It means the 4 Functions. Though "development[of 1-4 functions] " may dictate availability of 1-4 functions.


    But how would anyone actually measure the extent to which one of their supporting functions dominates consciousness? One would presumably have to measure how minimised is the functioning of the dominant.
    Perhaps, perhaps(Ne) it is in this model:

    1. Significant reliance on a Judgment Function weakens the use of the other Judgment Function. Where I use Fe, my mind completely loses its "Ti mindset". The "Dominant break" is often very short and once I have judged with Fe, I revert and rationalize it with Ti.
    2. Same with Perceiving Functions.
    3. Judgement and Perceiving Functions are able to efficiently accompany each other because they do not possess a repressive relationship. To judge, one must first perceive[and probably at an alarming speed of cognitive exchange].
    4. It is possible to have zero use on function at a given period of time.

  4. #194
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Where did you find this definition? My understanding is that "development" means a more comfortable and capable use of a certain function. Where in Inferior Je is initially inept at people management, they become "developed" and capable.

    In Inferior[ticket to undevelopment]Fe, it's the often cause of false judgment of other's intentions, etc.

    Conscious does not mean "available at times of your choosing". It means the 4 Functions. Though "development[of 1-4 functions] " may dictate availability of 1-4 functions.
    Where did I find that definition? I made it up with a view to bringing out (and perhaps exaggerating) the difference between normal development and "using a function". I'm dubious of the notion of "working on my Xy" or "developing my functions" inasmuch as the verbs used that way indicate pre-existing conscious control of the function, and hint at a pre-existing ability to minimise the influence of other functions on conscious workings. It seems to me in general that actual cognitive workings are far more unconscious than we recognise and far less escapable than we think. So "development" is actually a long term process occurring over periods of tens of years, perhaps with some startling breakthroughs but nonetheless happening on the whole at a pace undesigned by us.

    We can however fairly easily focus on producing behaviors and creating environments that emphasise the products of a given function. And we can make efforts to identify when and where a given function is an identifiable part of our cognition.


    Perhaps, perhaps(Ne) it is in this model:

    1. Significant reliance on a Judgment Function weakens the use of the other Judgment Function. Where I use Fe, my mind completely loses its "Ti mindset". The "Dominant break" is often very short and once I have judged with Fe, I revert and rationalize it with Ti.
    2. Same with Perceiving Functions.
    3. Judgement and Perceiving Functions are able to efficiently accompany each other because they do not possess a repressive relationship. To judge, one must first perceive[and probably at an alarming speed of cognitive exchange].
    4. It is possible to have zero use on function at a given period of time.
    Sounds good. But "where I use" means "when that kind of cognition is prominent in consciousness". A lot of how the whole system works is hidden away as "the unconscious". Or is it? I dunno. It just seems like there some missing part to the mechanism, and "what is consciousness?" is difficult to answer without invoking "I".
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #195
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    Haha, yeah, I'm "Friends" with this.


    Clear Fe and Ti. Attachments tend to "blur" logic["I have X money to survive this week but I so want this little kitty!" -_-"] so I see it as mandatory to "Ti"---as well as seeking the most universal "attachments" such as "survival".



    I also want this answered. I have had many "nerdy" INFJ friends, though these males AND females have both the social ability AND the academic ability to be flexible. Some were even highly manipulative but rare have I seen them having trouble socializing relative to other INXX's.

    Seeing as that you have Je[interaction function] as your Auxiliary, I believe introversion has played a significant role in this. It's possible to do Ni Fe, but easier to do Ni alone. And with the lack of external output, Ti could have substituted for your Judging function---allowing a more "exercised" Ti. As oppose to this condition, Ti Ne does not need interaction.

    Perhaps if you did more Fe, you will "change" and be more "charitable" and idealistic, though perhaps not.



    Or it could be something called the "Tertiary disease".

    1. Why do some INTP's have demonic Si?
    2. ENFP's with killer Te?
    3. What else?


    Fe can only dictate values to a certain degree. Look at INFJ scientists. Different Ni leads to different ideal perception.


    An ESFJ(Fe dom) friend of mine is very confrontational. Inferior Je are those that tend to dislike confrontations.

    Always a factor, yes.


    Contingency planning is a conscious natural "skill" of Te. But does this mean that an INTP can't do contingency plans? I do it all the time, especially with my Ne of looking for possible errors.

    "What if I lost my wallet, I'll do X. What If Z, Y!"

    The difference is that it's less natural because I think I'd have to go to my Inferior J(Pi Je) functions.



    No, It is not opposed. Fe will "strike back" and strike aggressively if perceived justice is violated. The added boost of having Dominant Fe allows better control over emotions and better confidence in seeking external organization(Je).

    Fe Doms are actually quite "good" with confrontations as it is a Je function. Inferior Je, on the other hand, are the ones with the relation of "opposition against confrontation".



    The person who I know who cared for others the most was a "T". I don't believe "will to do 'good'" is directly correlated with type.


    And Ti is also "conscience" perhaps. Just a bit less value based.



    @SERGE
    (Si Ne)
    I wanted to recommend you a simple way of learning which functions do you actively use extensively at any period of time.

    (Si)
    I, myself, am conscious of which I significantly use daily and during the times I use them. My thoughts go "I am using Si right now." Which is actually currently true and I also sense the slight reduction of "mental energy" brought upon by the usage of a lower preferred and undeveloped function(Si).

    (Ti Ne)
    The only "key" to this is mental alertness(Ti) and a significant attention to detail(Se). Also, probably Ni.

    (Ti Ne)
    probably...

    (Ti Ne)
    I understand that you have Inferior Se. See if you find errors in that perceiving cognition. It could prove your inferiority with the function.

    (Si)
    I am also well aware of how much "if's" and "what if's" I make during speech and during my thought processes. They "energize" me and .drive my interest in the realms of theoretical thinking.

    (Ti)
    It's quite simple.


    Oh my. I am not sure where to start. For one, I seem to disagree with much of your interpretation of Fe and Fi. Where are you getting your definitions of those functions? How then are you interpreting behaviors and attributing them to those functions? I'm afraid I"m rather thoroughly confused by much of what you are saying.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  6. #196
    Probably Most Brilliant Craft's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w7 sx/so
    Socionics
    N/A
    Posts
    1,200

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Where did I find that definition? I made it up with a view to bringing out (and perhaps exaggerating) the difference between normal development and "using a function". I'm dubious of the notion of "working on my Xy" or "developing my functions" inasmuch as the verbs used that way indicate pre-existing conscious control of the function, and hint at a pre-existing ability to minimise the influence of other functions on conscious workings. It seems to me in general that actual cognitive workings are far more unconscious than we recognise and far less escapable than we think. So "development" is actually a long term process occurring over periods of tens of years, perhaps with some startling breakthroughs but nonetheless happening on the whole at a pace undesigned by us.
    I agree that "development" is long term but I disagree with the difficulty in recognizing the functions we use during consciousness. Each and every tiny detail of our cognitive behavior[external and internal] represents function use.


    We can however fairly easily focus on producing behaviors and creating environments that emphasise the products of a given function. And we can make efforts to identify when and where a given function is an identifiable part of our cognition.
    A step back to greater generalization? My intuition disagrees. Though, as of now, my logic is probably insufficient.


    Sounds good. But "where I use" means "when that kind of cognition is prominent in consciousness". A lot of how the whole system works is hidden away as "the unconscious". Or is it? I dunno. It just seems like there some missing part to the mechanism, and "what is consciousness?" is difficult to answer without invoking "I".
    Perhaps you'd like to read this link. Yes, I believe "usage" is more accurately meaning cognitive prominence.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post


    Oh my. I am not sure where to start. For one, I seem to disagree with much of your interpretation of Fe and Fi. Where are you getting your definitions of those functions?
    From several sources: book, websites, posts, logic and experience.

    Please specify and quote which of my presented data is incorrect. I will examine it.

    How then are you interpreting behaviors and attributing them to those functions?
    Are you asking for "function signals"? I can't quite understand this question.

  7. #197
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    4,318

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post
    I agree that "development" is long term but I disagree with the difficulty in recognizing the functions we use during consciousness. Each and every tiny detail of our cognitive behavior[external and internal] represents function use.
    It was supposedly Jung who said the great thing about the unconscious is... it's unconscious! We literally can't describe it directly, and do have tor resort to models and hypotheses. Or so, supposedly, he said. Even so, functions can't be the whole story, or if they can, some really simple application of function theory is being widely overlooked because there's still the spark of life to be explained, animation. Or, what animates the functions to make them resemble a person. Function theory glosses over that by appealing to some entity or object called "libido".

    A step back to greater generalization?
    Not so much. Cognitive functioning is different from expressed behavior. For example, an INFJ with killer Ti... is probably just a normal INFJ with a modicum of academic training. The bulk of the cognition that goes into this "killer Ti" is undoubtedly still introverted intuition, but the behavior--like for example, writing down the thoughts or speaking them--presents it all, and shapes it all into the form of, Ti. It's probably something of an ordeal, though probably also a satisfying ordeal, even if they do tire of it quicker than an INTP would.

    I suppose a lot depends on the concept of dominant function. If we all do have dominant functions that genuinely do dominate cognition, they're probably well thought of as afflictions as much as identities. A dominant function if it dominates is all but inescapable.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #198
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,885

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Craft View Post

    Please specify and quote which of my presented data is incorrect. I will examine it.


    Are you asking for "function signals"? I can't quite understand this question.
    Yes - perhaps "function signals" is a better way to describe it. You are interpreting certain things that Serge says (I presume) and inferring those things are indicative of a particular mental process or function that he is demonstrating.

    I am not questioning your data. I'm questioning your interpretation of the functions Fe, Fi, Te, and Ti. Specifically,
    1) What do you think they mean?
    2) What differentiates introverted vs. extroverted attitudes of those functions? and
    3) How you are interpreting "function signals" and attributing those signals to those functions?

    I could elaborate upon examples but to make things simple, let's say any reference or conclusion as to "signals" that indicate Fe vs. Fi. I do not believe I understand any of them. As an side, I've already provided my definitions earlier in the thread.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

Similar Threads

  1. Memory having to do with entertaining things.
    By prplchknz in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 10-08-2009, 07:45 PM
  2. [ENFP] ENFPs having to do it all?
    By step0nmi in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 02-27-2009, 10:25 AM
  3. [MBTItm] I need to do this.
    By Chimerical in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 12-23-2008, 01:38 PM
  4. [NF] ever asked "do we really have to do anything in this world?"
    By niki in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 10-03-2008, 07:52 PM
  5. Only guys are stupid enough to do this...
    By sdalek in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 06-15-2007, 09:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO