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  1. #171
    Member Serge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Would you say you're aware of a person's feelings because you pay attention to such things or do you usually pay attention to other parts of the world and knowledge of feeling arrives as a sort of addendum to these other concerns? What are these other concerns?
    Tough question. I don't think I intentionally pay attention to what people are feeling, I think the only time I really pay attention to it is when I think something is off and the person in question is acting in a manner that's unexpected. I didn't use to, it's something I've learned through reading and being with people myself. I usually pay attention to my thoughts and ideas more than I pay attention to people's feelings, I assume most people can take care of theirs. I tend to pay attention to the environment around me, how close someone is to me, my object of interest (usually what I'm reading) and then other people. Even when someone is obviously sad, I don't tend to try to cheer them up unless they're my friend.

    Do you have a broader plan? Perhaps it's not as clearly defined as a day-to-day plan, but it includes an image of the way things should be. And does this sometimes influence choices you make in front of others?
    Yes. I have most of my life planned out until after grad school (With many contingency plans because I'll probably grow and change as a person quite a few times in college.) and yes it does influence my choices, I know what I need to be and I realize that some current actions might be counter productive towards that. Drugs and alcohol, for example, would not be a good thing for me to start when I had a dream of being a psychologist. Also, when I wanted to be a physicist, I became really interested in doing well in math. (I despise math, really. I <3 physics. Hate math. Fml)


    (Those two questions relate to determination of an auxiliary function. And you're just out of high-school, right? The auxiliary is probably still tough to work out yet.)
    Yes, just turned 18 even...two months ago!
    Johari/Nohari wall! Thanks in advance for filling it out.

    "Taste. I have no taste. I don't like these tiny portions or your artful abortions of sound, sealed with a kiss, slathered in the sauce sarcastic. So go choke on your irony"
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    "Life for you, has been less than kind
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  2. #172
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    We should get some INFJs in here to say something about what it's like being young. Do they get overwhelmed by other people's feelings or is it a gradual growing awareness? (I have no idea.)

    Also, on the idea of a broader plan, do you find sometimes that you need to correct other people, that there's a broader scheme of things that they're forgetting or would be helped by learning? And it's not really about them or you or opinion, it's "right". (This is the one you didn't choose last time, and it would indicate "J", particularly if "right" is NOT about looking right, but about holding to some external standard that you're aware of and count as important. Is there a "right order" in the cosmos that you're aware off and want to stick to, even if it means not letting other people have their own opinion?)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  3. #173
    Member Serge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    We should get some INFJs in here to say something about what it's like being young. Do they get overwhelmed by other people's feelings or is it a gradual growing awareness? (I have no idea.)
    That'd be interesting, I know a bit about teenaged INFJs based on the INFJ forum but not a lot.

    Also, on the idea of a broader plan, do you find sometimes that you need to correct other people, that there's a broader scheme of things that they're forgetting or would be helped by learning? And it's not really about them or you or opinion, it's "right". (This is the one you didn't choose last time, and it would indicate "J", particularly if "right" is NOT about looking right, but about holding to some external standard that you're aware of and count as important. Is there a "right order" in the cosmos that you're aware off and want to stick to, even if it means not letting other people have their own opinion?)
    Actually, now that you bring this up, I do recall doing such a thing. I told my bff that it'd probably be better for her to not be a pre-med major focusing on biology for various reasons, all of which she turned down, and I did somewhat take that as a slight against me at the time. It felt as if she didn't value my opinion. I got mad and told her any potential fuck ups down the line were her fault college wise (I was being a dick but I'm trying to be honest. Immaturity ftw) Now...about being right...I don't believe in a completely objective ability to make a decision but I do believe that there is a "right" and "wrong" decision based on the information known at the time. The right answer usually involves choosing the option that is the best for you emotionally, financially, and logically. Which includes a lot of things but I believe there is a 'right' answer and I believe not picking anything is a (bad) choice in itself.
    Johari/Nohari wall! Thanks in advance for filling it out.

    "Taste. I have no taste. I don't like these tiny portions or your artful abortions of sound, sealed with a kiss, slathered in the sauce sarcastic. So go choke on your irony"
    ~
    "Life for you, has been less than kind
    So take a number, stand in line
    We've all been sorry, we've all been hurt
    But how we survive, is what makes us who we are"


  4. #174
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    I've been thinking about it and my suggestion is to not pay so much attention to the type descriptions. I see a number of "cliche" references for INTJ or for a particular type. You are young enough that I would hate to see this stuff influence your self perception in a way that hinders vs. helps. There is only one you. This is part of the danger of "folk typology" that Solitary Walker describes. I agree with much but not all that he says. In this case, I think he has a point.

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  5. #175
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Uncle Highlander makes a good point. While it's true (probably) that there are only 16 types, and while type is really useful for consciously directing a better you, still type is discovered by inspecting the person, not the other way around. Assuming as we all must that functions are real, even if one knows one's type, one still should be attending to what works and what doesn't for you. In that way you make type profiles real rather than them making you real.



    (Or, to put it another way, I don't know what your type is either.)
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #176
    Senior Member Heart&Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    We should get some INFJs in here to say something about what it's like being young. Do they get overwhelmed by other people's feelings or is it a gradual growing awareness? (I have no idea.)
    I may have an idea, but it's only based on how a close INFJ, now 43 y.o., has described his youth to me. Feelings and social awareness were suddenly overwhelming him by puberty and he didn't like it. He felt, and still does to a degree, "filterless" with respect to instinctively feeling everything that's going on between people when entering a room. He can't block feeling it even if he doesn't care about the people. He just senses or feels or knows everybody's interests, conflicts and emotional games and whether they are relaxed or alert or feel threatened or harbours resentments or would try to bond or put on masks etc. etc. He doesn't actually care about most people, only a select few, (much like the INTJ I suppose) so he often feels like he is getting much too much information for his comfort. Exhaustion from feeling what's going on inside and between others is part of the reason why he needs his alone time when he has been socialising. And why he is very discriminate with whom he wants to socialise with if he can choose. Problematic or 'bad vibe'-people wears him out very quickly. He can get aggressive and resentful on people for simple being present if they feel dominant, needy, manipulative, clueless or arrogant. Even if they are distant or think they keep low profile their very presence amounts to stuffing their bad vibes down his throat. :steam:


    A clue to functional order could be how introversion / extroversion might shift as you grow up, thus as the different functions, dom-I, aux-E, tert-I, begin to get integrated and practised. This INFJ was a quiet, sceptical, thoughtful child, but very popular (more than he actually wanted to be). He wanted to be alone for hours after school before going out to play, for instance, which nobody understood. Not that he cared that nobody understood. Ni-introverted, strongminded child. J-stubborn. (says the P... )

    At puberty it looks like Fe kicked in, girls suddenly existed () and he was hardly ever home, but always roaming around with a huge group of distant 'friends', drinking to numb himself from the overwhelming blast of feeling-information, not caring shit about anything which made him a bit of an unwiling 'leader', rapid succession of random GF's whose name he hardly remembered, absolutely minimal contact with his family. Fe-extroverted teenager surfing the crowd rather mindlessly to get a filter on the overwhelming new sensibility.

    By 18-19 he cut all ties with his previous bad ass group, became obsessed with odd philosophy and French modernist literature and decided to study philosophy at uni which was completely not done in his environment or family. Looks like some Ti waking up and adding a new aspect to his mix.

    Pretty marked shifts it seems. I imagine the puberty-extraversion of an INTJ would look different (aux Te goals in school, getting results) as would the teen-years of the INFP (aux Ne-airy and varied interests in all kinds of stuff, intuiting connections in a bigger world to be discovered).

    So, Serge, which is it?

  7. #177
    Member Serge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heart&Brain View Post
    I may have an idea, but it's only based on how a close INFJ, now 43 y.o., has described his youth to me. Feelings and social awareness were suddenly overwhelming him by puberty and he didn't like it. He felt, and still does to a degree, "filterless" with respect to instinctively feeling everything that's going on between people when entering a room. He can't block feeling it even if he doesn't care about the people. He just senses or feels or knows everybody's interests, conflicts and emotional games and whether they are relaxed or alert or feel threatened or harbours resentments or would try to bond or put on masks etc. etc. He doesn't actually care about most people, only a select few, (much like the INTJ I suppose) so he often feels like he is getting much too much information for his comfort. Exhaustion from feeling what's going on inside and between others is part of the reason why he needs his alone time when he has been socialising. And why he is very discriminate with whom he wants to socialise with if he can choose. Problematic or 'bad vibe'-people wears him out very quickly. He can get aggressive and resentful on people for simple being present if they feel dominant, needy, manipulative, clueless or arrogant. Even if they are distant or think they keep low profile their very presence amounts to stuffing their bad vibes down his throat. :steam:
    Can't say that I'm similar to that myself. When I walk into a room, I don't notice the atmosphere unless it's particularly thick. I also tend to focus mainly on my friends or interests, I don't put as much effort into understanding the feelings of everyone else. And even if I do understand, I tend not to act on them. Bad vibe people don't wear me out, they just tend to annoy me and that's not a good place for me to be in if I want to be social. I tend to avoid them as well, and if I have to hang with them, I largely ignore or I make them look like an ass. For example, my friend, love him to death, loves to be the leader. He likes to place orders and just generally try to show how much of a 'man' he is to me, one day, we were in blockbuster with another friend of mine and he kept agitating me. I wanted to get a movie that we would all like but he kept telling me what I should get, what's good, what's bad. That's fine, I was used to that, but we started to walk up to the counter and he was standing in front of me like he was the pack leader, I had a feeling he did it on purpose and I completely stopped, handed him the movie, and I told him that since he wanted to act like he's the leader of this group, he can be. He can also pay for the damn movie himself. (The more I reveal, the more and more immature i feel lol)

    A clue to functional order could be how introversion / extroversion might shift as you grow up, thus as the different functions, dom-I, aux-E, tert-I, begin to get integrated and practised. This INFJ was a quiet, sceptical, thoughtful child, but very popular (more than he actually wanted to be). He wanted to be alone for hours after school before going out to play, for instance, which nobody understood. Not that he cared that nobody understood. Ni-introverted, strongminded child. J-stubborn. (says the P... )

    At puberty it looks like Fe kicked in, girls suddenly existed () and he was hardly ever home, but always roaming around with a huge group of distant 'friends', drinking to numb himself from the overwhelming blast of feeling-information, not caring shit about anything which made him a bit of an unwiling 'leader', rapid succession of random GF's whose name he hardly remembered, absolutely minimal contact with his family. Fe-extroverted teenager surfing the crowd rather mindlessly to get a filter on the overwhelming new sensibility.
    Puberty for me....I don't know, it was a wild time. I spent a majority of my time alone (To the shock of my parents, I was quite an extroverted child. Overtly confident. Liked being the center of attention) and I spent a majority of my time scorning people and making plans for what I wanted to do (Most of these plans not ever succeeding though..) I also started playing video games a lot, I think it was a means of making me feel somewhat accomplished in at least something, and I also started roleplaying, I wanted to be someone else. I didn't really pay attention to people until I was 16, I learned that their were benefits to being social and not being a dick.

    By 18-19 he cut all ties with his previous bad ass group, became obsessed with odd philosophy and French modernist literature and decided to study philosophy at uni which was completely not done in his environment or family. Looks like some Ti waking up and adding a new aspect to his mix.

    Pretty marked shifts it seems. I imagine the puberty-extraversion of an INTJ would look different (aux Te goals in school, getting results) as would the teen-years of the INFP (aux Ne-airy and varied interests in all kinds of stuff, intuiting connections in a bigger world to be discovered).

    So, Serge, which is it?
    Seeing as I'm just turning 18, I can't really comments on tertiary functions but for the most part, I'm trying to find my 'passion.' I don't know why but there feels like there is nothing in my life that I LOVE so much that I can do it day in, and day out. At least, I can't find it. That's what I'm searching for, I know there's something.

    I guess I had Te goals in school. Didn't really put effort into my plans though. I did make high marks, its just that I couldn't do it consistently (more to mood problems than anything else)

    Question: People with high Fi wouldn't have a problem finding their passion, right? I mean, for the most part, I just feel...kinda apathetic.

    Also, I'm a part of the INTJ forum and I go to the chat somewhat often, I'm starting to notice that I don't really like paying attention to really theoretical conversations. I like Quantum Mechanics a little more than the next guy but I don't really like discussing all that much. I notice this also applies to really abstract philosophy (Are we really perceiving reality? My response: Does it really fucking matter if you're a part of my imagination or not? I still have a game to play) I tend to like subjects that revolve around people in some way (Politics, for example, biology, P-chem.)
    Johari/Nohari wall! Thanks in advance for filling it out.

    "Taste. I have no taste. I don't like these tiny portions or your artful abortions of sound, sealed with a kiss, slathered in the sauce sarcastic. So go choke on your irony"
    ~
    "Life for you, has been less than kind
    So take a number, stand in line
    We've all been sorry, we've all been hurt
    But how we survive, is what makes us who we are"


  8. #178
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Maybe what's screwing with proper type hypothesising here is E vs I. All this social stuff you speak of, Serge, really doesn't sound INTJ. But it could easily be E-something. E-anything, really. And the fact you're sure of I would then be glossed by reference to the standard type development model, which says in the beginning we're all dominant but this changes in the teens when we all swing heavily into auxiliary mode. It's like a growth spurt and the auxiliary gets over-emphasised in consciousness (presumably just because if it weren't OVER-emphasized, it wouldn't have the conscious presence to grow in and eventually fit a proper role alongside the dominant). Maybe Little Sticks picked it right.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  9. #179
    Senior Member Anamalech's Avatar
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    Serge is an INFJ. Very developed Ti and unsure of his Fe. Its in his fucking voice. Natural warm Fe voice.

    YouTube - Michael Ignatieff's Early Liberal Memories - This guy is an INFJ with excellent Ti usage. Youd mistake him for an INTJ.

    YouTube - Stephen Harper Income Trust Promise - This guy is INTJ. Excellent articulation.

    Conclusion: Serge is an INFJ unsure of his Fe and with heavy Ti development.

  10. #180
    Obsession. Lethe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I've been thinking about it and my suggestion is to not pay so much attention to the type descriptions. I see a number of "cliche" references for INTJ or for a particular type.
    Seconded. Rather than focus on what qualifies as an "INTJ" or "INFJ" hobby, determine the process and reasoning in which you use to achieve your objective.

    Eric B's description on the functions might be of use to you:

    Se: The environment must contain new experiences
    Si: Life must be familiar to me
    Ne: The environment must contain alternatives, new possibilities
    Ni: Life must have an underlying significance to me
    Te: The environment must be logically organized
    Ti: Life must make sense to me
    Fe: The environment must be socially friendly
    Fi: Life must be personally congruent to me
    OrangeAppled's Fi-Fe distinction is great as well:

    I think Fe is more interpersonal & Fi is intrapersonal. Fe seeks external harmony to lead to internal harmony, and Fi seeks internal harmony to lead to external harmony. You could say that one works it way inwards & the other outwards.

    ---

    I think it's fair to say that Fe reasons on what is important as well, but turns outward to gauge things, or to assign value. Fe people seem more likely to seek consensus and to label good or bad based on the results.

    Fi is this abstract inner knowing that serves as a basis for reasoning on what matters to that individual, which is why it's so hard to describe.
    "I cannot expect even my own art to provide all of the answers -- only to hope it keeps asking the right questions." -- Grace Hartigan

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