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What Type Is Highlander?

What Enneagram Type Is Highlander?

  • 5

    Votes: 4 50.0%
  • 8

    Votes: 3 37.5%
  • 3

    Votes: 1 12.5%

  • Total voters
    8

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Interesting stuff here.

EDIT: Z has convinced me at least for the moment that 5 is indeed possible.

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/members/misid/5and8.asp

"Misidentifying Fives and Eights

These two types are not often mistyped, but share similar attitudes. Eights and Fives both see themselves as outsiders and both feel rejected easily. Both are highly independent, and willing to go to battle with anyone who threatens their independence. Both believe in direct communication, can be aggressive, and tend to protect their vulnerability.

Eights sometimes see themselves as Fives because they go to Five in stress, and therefore recall times when they have withdrawn from others to strategize and think about their future courses of action. Nonetheless, Eights more often deal with problems head on, and can be highly assertive in going after what they want. Fives, by contrast, tend to retreat from others and to cut off from many of their needs in order to avoid risking dependencies.

Eights are highly instinctual and very related to their bodies: they are people of practical action, pragmatism, and sensuality, as a result. Fives tend to stay in their heads more, and often have an ambivalent relationship with their bodies. Staying grounded and practical can be a problem for Fives–it is almost never one for Eights. Compare James Joyce (a Five) with Ernest Hemingway (an Eight)."
 

Zarathustra

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^ Interesting.

Odd that they would say they're not often mistyped, and then go into all these similarities they possess...

Seems to me like the potential for mistyping would be pretty high...

It almost seems to me like INTx's would tend to be 5s, and ENTx's would tend to be 8s (aside from ENTP 7s, of course), and so the difference would largely fall along an individual's introversion/extroversion balance.

This is part of the reason why I think I have a difficulty with this, because my introversion/extroversion is pretty well balanced.

I don't think it's a 1:1 correlation, but I would assume it would be reasonably high...
 

mmhmm

meinmeinmein!
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
2,280
Interesting stuff here.

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/members/misid/5and8.asp

"Misidentifying Fives and Eights

These two types are not often mistyped, but share similar attitudes. Eights and Fives both see themselves as outsiders and both feel rejected easily. Both are highly independent, and willing to go to battle with anyone who threatens their independence. Both believe in direct communication, can be aggressive, and tend to protect their vulnerability.

Eights sometimes see themselves as Fives because they go to Five in stress, and therefore recall times when they have withdrawn from others to strategize and think about their future courses of action. Nonetheless, Eights more often deal with problems head on, and can be highly assertive in going after what they want. Fives, by contrast, tend to retreat from others and to cut off from many of their needs in order to avoid risking dependencies.

Eights are highly instinctual and very related to their bodies: they are people of practical action, pragmatism, and sensuality, as a result. Fives tend to stay in their heads more, and often have an ambivalent relationship with their bodies. Staying grounded and practical can be a problem for Fives–it is almost never one for Eights. Compare James Joyce (a Five) with Ernest Hemingway (an Eight)."

Types Five and Eight. Observers and Protectors share some of the same personality traits because the Observer is the stress type of the Protector and the Protector is the security type of the Observer. Both types value respect and truth, resist control, become possessive of space and key resources, and are curious. Observers feeling secure become more engaged and outgoing and express their desires, their feelings and their anger and position. Protectors in stress become more withdrawn, retrained and reflective.

However, in general, Observers are the most retracted, contained, and measured type on the Enneagram: they conserve their energy, reduce their needs, and almost always think before acting. Protectors, by contrast, are the most expansive, expressive and excessive type on the Enneagram: they expand their energy, directly express their desires and their angers, and often act before thinking.

from the essential enneagram, david daniels.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Messages
8,110
Types Five and Eight. Observers and Protectors share some of the same personality traits because the Observer is the stress type of the Protector and the Protector is the security type of the Observer. Both types value respect and truth, resist control, become possessive of space and key resources, and are curious. Observers feeling secure become more engaged and outgoing and express their desires, their feelings and their anger and position. Protectors in stress become more withdrawn, retrained and reflective.

However, in general, Observers are the most retracted, contained, and measured type on the Enneagram: they conserve their energy, reduce their needs, and almost always think before acting. Protectors, by contrast, are the most expansive, expressive and excessive type on the Enneagram: they expand their energy, directly express their desires and their angers, and often act before thinking.

I mean, at least with regards to NTJs, doesn't this just sound like 8s are ENTJs and 5s are INTJs?

When INTJs go more Te and start extroverting, this is akin to moving from 5 to 8...

And when ENTJs go more Ni and start introverting, this is akin to moving from 8 to 5...

A similar comparison could be drawn between ENTPs and INTPs (just not as strongly, probably).
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Types Five and Eight. Observers and Protectors share some of the same personality traits because the Observer is the stress type of the Protector and the Protector is the security type of the Observer. Both types value respect and truth, resist control, become possessive of space and key resources, and are curious. Observers feeling secure become more engaged and outgoing and express their desires, their feelings and their anger and position. Protectors in stress become more withdrawn, retrained and reflective.

However, in general, Observers are the most retracted, contained, and measured type on the Enneagram: they conserve their energy, reduce their needs, and almost always think before acting. Protectors, by contrast, are the most expansive, expressive and excessive type on the Enneagram: they expand their energy, directly express their desires and their angers, and often act before thinking.

from the essential enneagram, david daniels.

That does sound like extraversion vs. introversion. I think there are some 5 things and 8 things that apply to me as I begin to learn more about 5.

I can see why some on the forum would think I might be a 5 based on how I interact here. It's a fun opportunity to indulge myself - diving in, learning and researching stuff, constantly increasing my overall understanding of this system which involves human interactions. I think 5 and INTJ have a lot of synergies. It would create less internal tension for an INTJ to be a 5 than to be another type. Having considered it quite a bit yesterday though, I actually do not believe I am a 5. This is why:

- I've taken 3 different tests all with the same result of an 8; the first was 8OMNI, then 8w7, then 8w7; 5 is way down the list in terms of what is likely on those tests
- Many of the words that characterize a 5 do not resonate with me at all: frugal, minimalist, feels invisible, avarice, hoarder, austere surroundings, isolated, loner, passive, reclusive
- The words that characterize an 8 do resonate with me but I hesitate to put them down here because they mostly make me feel uncomfortable
- The fears of a 5 don't resonate much with me; the ones for 8 do
- The "soul child" description of a 5 doesn't resonate at all; whereas the one for the 8 does
- Looking at this link and answering the two questions (active child, active parent), the conclusion is 8: http://pstypes.blogspot.com/search?u...&max-results=2
- I asked somebody who knows me really well if they thought the 8 description was right; after chuckling several times while reading it; they said yes it does

So, my conclusion is that those characteristics that may lead one to think I'm a 5 are in fact indicative of INTJ. There's a small part of me that thinks 5 is possible but generally, it seems pretty unlikely.

So, that's what I said in the other thread. I'm less certain right now on 5 vs. 8.
 

Onceajoan

New member
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
239
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
I have no doubts Highlander is an INTJ but he doesn't strike me as a type 8. He just seems too calm and low key for that type. I've never seen him express anger or aggression. Perhaps he's an unusually healthy 8 or has a different demeanor in real life than online. Had I not seen his signature, I would have guessed 5w6 for the enneagram type.

A excellent INTJ role model. I have a feeling Highlander's F/T are well integrated. There's sympathy unusual to an INTJ or any male for that matter. You have to be pretty damn healthy to come across the way he does if he's an INTJ. It's not typical at ALL!

I don't see Eight - but I don't know Highlander very well.

I see Five as a possibility. Very analytical. In his head. Eights aren't like that at all. Of course, this completely contradicts the test scores posted earlier.... Hmmm... Not easy.
 

highlander

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 23, 2009
Messages
26,562
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I mean, at least with regards to NTJs, doesn't this just sound like 8s are ENTJs and 5s are INTJs?

When INTJs go more Te and start extroverting, this is akin to moving from 5 to 8...

And when ENTJs go more Ni and start introverting, this is akin to moving from 8 to 5...

A similar comparison could be drawn between ENTPs and INTPs (just not as strongly, probably).

This summarizes the correlations.

http://pstypes.blogspot.com/2009/07/myers-briggs-and-enneagram-type.html
 

rav3n

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But why would an e8 move to e5 be considered a disintegration unless it's viewed that introversion is a "bad" thing?
 

Onceajoan

New member
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Apr 22, 2010
Messages
239
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
Eights under stress begin to act out the unhealthy characteristics of the Five. Eights tend to run on impulse, reacting, challenging, asserting themselves in the environment. At times, when they get in "over their heads" they sometimes go to Five. There's safety in thought. Eights believe that by becoming shrewder and more premeditated they can retain their power.They act more secretly and with more forethought rather than recklessly. They can strike without warning and hide from their enemies. When even more unhealthy, an Eight will retreat from others, get lost in projects, become emotionally detached and preoccupied like average Fives. The Eights contempt for human weakness is made worse by Five's intellectual arrogance.

There's more as Eight becomes increasingly unhealthy.

The above is paraphrased from Personality Types, Riso and Hudson, pp. 328 - 331.
 

rav3n

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There's a hella' lot of assumption in their description of an e8 under stress. If an 8 deliberately moves towards 5, it can be a think before acting scenario. Once rational thought has been completed, the action nature of the e8 will put their plan into place. Also, while an e8 is instinctual, we're not all power mongers. Some of us are less interested in power and more interested in not being controlled which doesn't necessarily manifest in environmental control.

Anyways, if a 5 moves to 8, this is good. If an 8 moves to 5, this is bad. These two statements conflict.
 

Zarathustra

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Joined
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Messages
8,110
But why would an e8 move to e5 be considered a disintegration unless it's viewed that introversion is a "bad" thing?

I don't think it necessarily is a "bad" thing.

As I said in an earlier post, from what I've read, we can actually take on the negative qualities of our integration point, and the positive qualities of our disintegration point.

It's just that we may more often do the opposite: take on the positive qualities of our integration point, and the negative qualities of our disintegration point.

What I would suggest, Metaphor, is that the shift from e8 to e5 could be both positive or negative.

It's when the e8 is under stress, however, that they tend to do so in a negative way.

Same goes for e5 to e7: engaging our inferior Se to go out and socialize and have a good time can be a very positive thing.

At the same time, if we start drinking and/or doing drugs because of stress, well, that's disintegration into e7 in a negative way.

I'd also suggest that, at the very least, we should try to understand these two systems in terms of one another...

In my opinion, MBTI looks a bit better than the enneagram, and not the other way around...
 

Onceajoan

New member
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
239
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
Misidentifying Fives and Eights

These two types are not often mistyped, but share similar attitudes. Eights and Fives both see themselves as outsiders and both feel rejected easily. Both are highly independent, and willing to go to battle with anyone who threatens their independence. Both believe in direct communication, can be aggressive, and tend to protect their vulnerability.

However, Fives tend to be passive aggressive. Never in your face, as a rule. Fives can be overtly aggressive, but only when pushed to the brink. Fives protect themselves by creating their own space both physically and psychology to create boundaries that no one can trespass unless given permission. I would never say that a Five communicates directly.

Eights sometimes see themselves as Fives because they go to Five in stress, and therefore recall times when they have withdrawn from others to strategize and think about their future courses of action. Nonetheless, Eights more often deal with problems head on, and can be highly assertive in going after what they want. Fives, by contrast, tend to retreat from others and to cut off from many of their needs in order to avoid risking dependencies.

Very true. Yet, I would think it would be rather hard for an Eight to see themselves as a Five unless that Eight considers themselves to be a hermit and an intellectual. Eights are aggressive :2ar15:and out there - Fives are just "out there" - spacey. :wacko:

Eights are highly instinctual and very related to their bodies: they are people of practical action, pragmatism, and sensuality, as a result. Fives tend to stay in their heads more, and often have an ambivalent relationship with their bodies. Staying grounded and practical can be a problem for Fives–it is almost never one for Eights. Compare James Joyce (a Five) with Ernest Hemingway (an Eight)."

Yep. Gotta be careful with those SX subtypes. It can make things a bit more confusing - but not too much.

Probably best question for determining whether you are Five or Eight - Do you ever feel spacey and "out of your body" or do you feel grounded most of the time?
 

Jaguar

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20,647
Q: "I was talking with some Enneagram friends recently, and they were saying that they disagreed with your idea that we only go to the "high end" of the type in our Direction of Integration, and that we only go to the "low end" of the type in our Direction of Disintegration. I told them that this was not your view, and that you had a more complete theory. I know that you taught about this at the Part I Training, but I could still use some clarification. How can I explain this to my friends?"

First of all, you are correct. We do not teach that the types only go to the healthy (or "high side") of their Direction of Integration, nor do we teach that we only go to the unhealthy (or "low side") of our Direction of Disintegration. We have not taught anything even remotely like that for many years. But this question has been raised repeatedly, so we want to say a thing or two that might simplify our views on the Directions.

With regard to the Direction of Disintegration, we feel that, under increased stress, a person goes to the type in his or her Direction of Disintegration at roughly the same Level as his or her basic type. We have explained this in the Revised Edition of Personality Types, and have included descriptions of what happens with the move to the Direction of Disintegration for each type Level by Level. Seen in this way, the move in the Direction of Disintegration is neither "up" or "down," but lateral. Thus it is neither to the "high side" nor to the "low side" unless the person is already at the "high side" or "low side" of their own type.

We see the Direction of Disintegration as a way of relieving stress by acting out behaviors that are not native to our type. It functions as a "safety valve" so that potentially overwhelming pressures and anxieties within the psyche can be let out. We feel that the Direction of Disintegration is not "bad," and can even be adaptive. It helps to slow the descent to a lower Level of our own type—a much more serious problem. In a certain sense, it is like a hasty lateral pass by a football quarterback who is being rushed by the defensive line: better to take a risk than to be sacked for sure and lose yardage. But in the case of our personalities, this move is usually unconscious and compulsive, and seldom resolves our problems. In certain circumstances, it can even make them worse. Also, by our definition, the move in the Direction of Disintegration (to the "stress point") comes into play at Level 4 or lower. In other words, "acting out" due to stress, occurs in the average to unhealthy ranges of our type.

By contrast, the Direction of Integration describes the process of consciously integrating new aspects of our Being that begins to come into play in the healthy Levels of our type, although we can first detect it around Level 4. The Direction of Integration represents a conscious movement toward wholeness. (For this reason, Level 4 is critical in that it marks a choice point—a stage at which we are more receptive to transformative energies. At Level 5 and lower, it is harder for us to respond to these energies: our personality is more dense and defended.)

Full article is here:

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/NArtLevels.asp
 

rav3n

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Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
I don't think it necessarily is a "bad" thing.

As I said in an earlier post, from what I've read, we can actually take on the negative qualities of our integration point, and the positive qualities of our disintegration point.

It's just that we may more often do the opposite: take on the positive qualities of our integration point, and the negative qualities of our disintegration point.

What I would suggest, Metaphor, is that the shift from e8 to e5 could be both positive or negative.

It's when the e8 is under stress, however, that they tend to do so in a negative way.

Same goes for e5 to e7: engaging our inferior Se to go out and socialize and have a good time can be a very positive thing.

At the same time, if we start drinking and/or doing drugs because of stress, well, that's disintegration into e7 in a negative way.
Agreed. That's why the Riso-Hudson model of enneagram is in my opinion, fucked up.

What's also interesting is that as 8w7's, 5 would be the natural progression for both highlander and myself, that is if we're really 8w7's.
 

Onceajoan

New member
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Messages
239
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
1w2
Agreed. That's why the Riso-Hudson model of enneagram is in my opinion, fucked up.

What's also interesting is that as 8w7's, 5 would be the natural progression for both highlander and myself, that is if we're really 8w7's.

You can be who ever the hell you want to be. The map is not the territory.
 

rav3n

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Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
Q: "I was talking with some Enneagram friends recently, and they were saying that they disagreed with your idea that we only go to the "high end" of the type in our Direction of Integration, and that we only go to the "low end" of the type in our Direction of Disintegration. I told them that this was not your view, and that you had a more complete theory. I know that you taught about this at the Part I Training, but I could still use some clarification. How can I explain this to my friends?"Full article is here:

http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/articles/NArtLevels.asp
They should clarify this in their theory, rather than in response to a specific question. But I still don't agree with their analysis of these movements being lateral.

So to summarize, our type's movement in either direction is usual lateral—that is, at the same Level as our basic type—rather than up or down. Our personalities have access to the entire range of the types in both directions, although the ways and circumstances in which these different qualities will manifest is specific.

They claim that it's too foreign to try to integrate these lateral movements but claim that their "move in the direction of integration" aka for an 8, a 2 is more natural. For myself, this is how many piles of inaccuracies. A 2 movement defies Fi.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Oct 31, 2009
Messages
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However, Fives tend to be passive aggressive. Never in your face, as a rule. Fives can be overtly aggressive, but only when pushed to the brink. Fives protect themselves by creating their own space both physically and psychology to create boundaries that no one can trespass unless given permission. I would never say that a Five communicates directly.

Very true. Yet, I would think it would be rather hard for an Eight to see themselves as a Five unless that Eight considers themselves to be a hermit and an intellectual. Eights are aggressive :2ar15:and out there - Fives are just "out there" - spacey. :wacko:

Yep. Gotta be careful with those SX subtypes. It can make things a bit more confusing - but not too much.

Probably best question for determining whether you are Five or Eight - Do you ever feel spacey and "out of your body" or do you feel grounded most of the time?

This post demonstrates exactly why I think the enneagram system is a bit inferior to MBTI (at least in my case).

I'm a more-extroverted-than-normal INTJ, you could very well call me an xNTJ, but I am, if I had to choose one, an introvert.

I also have come to believe that I'm an enneagram 5, although I thought I was an 8w9 to begin with.

I came out Sx/So on a test, but I don't know whether to believe it; I probably am Sx, though, just not sure about Sx/Sp or Sx/So.

And see, I'd say I can be "spacey" or "in your face", depending on whether I'm extroverting or introverting more.

It's not an issue of being spacey and not being able to be in your face; it's an issue of which one I happen to be at any one time (whether by choice, or not).

I might tend to be more spacey than in your face, but it's not just one or the other; it often comes down to a choice as to which style will accomplish my goals.

If I wanna contemplate all the different perspectives of a matter, I'll use more Ni; if I wanna get in your face to get something done, I'll use more Te.

MBTI provides a very clear and simple language for this; enneagram seems to create a bit too much of a false dichotomy, imo.

Also, with regards to the bolded: I can be a very direct communicator: once again, it's all about the extent to which I'm utilizing Te...
 
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