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View Poll Results: What Enneagram Type Is Highlander?

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  • 5

    4 57.14%
  • 8

    3 42.86%
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  1. #71
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    There's a hella' lot of assumption in their description of an e8 under stress. If an 8 deliberately moves towards 5, it can be a think before acting scenario. Once rational thought has been completed, the action nature of the e8 will put their plan into place. Also, while an e8 is instinctual, we're not all power mongers. Some of us are less interested in power and more interested in not being controlled which doesn't necessarily manifest in environmental control.

    Anyways, if a 5 moves to 8, this is good. If an 8 moves to 5, this is bad. These two statements conflict.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    But why would an e8 move to e5 be considered a disintegration unless it's viewed that introversion is a "bad" thing?
    I don't think it necessarily is a "bad" thing.

    As I said in an earlier post, from what I've read, we can actually take on the negative qualities of our integration point, and the positive qualities of our disintegration point.

    It's just that we may more often do the opposite: take on the positive qualities of our integration point, and the negative qualities of our disintegration point.

    What I would suggest, Metaphor, is that the shift from e8 to e5 could be both positive or negative.

    It's when the e8 is under stress, however, that they tend to do so in a negative way.

    Same goes for e5 to e7: engaging our inferior Se to go out and socialize and have a good time can be a very positive thing.

    At the same time, if we start drinking and/or doing drugs because of stress, well, that's disintegration into e7 in a negative way.

    I'd also suggest that, at the very least, we should try to understand these two systems in terms of one another...

    In my opinion, MBTI looks a bit better than the enneagram, and not the other way around...

  3. #73
    Senior Member Onceajoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Misidentifying Fives and Eights

    These two types are not often mistyped, but share similar attitudes. Eights and Fives both see themselves as outsiders and both feel rejected easily. Both are highly independent, and willing to go to battle with anyone who threatens their independence. Both believe in direct communication, can be aggressive, and tend to protect their vulnerability.
    However, Fives tend to be passive aggressive. Never in your face, as a rule. Fives can be overtly aggressive, but only when pushed to the brink. Fives protect themselves by creating their own space both physically and psychology to create boundaries that no one can trespass unless given permission. I would never say that a Five communicates directly.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Eights sometimes see themselves as Fives because they go to Five in stress, and therefore recall times when they have withdrawn from others to strategize and think about their future courses of action. Nonetheless, Eights more often deal with problems head on, and can be highly assertive in going after what they want. Fives, by contrast, tend to retreat from others and to cut off from many of their needs in order to avoid risking dependencies.
    Very true. Yet, I would think it would be rather hard for an Eight to see themselves as a Five unless that Eight considers themselves to be a hermit and an intellectual. Eights are aggressive and out there - Fives are just "out there" - spacey.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Eights are highly instinctual and very related to their bodies: they are people of practical action, pragmatism, and sensuality, as a result. Fives tend to stay in their heads more, and often have an ambivalent relationship with their bodies. Staying grounded and practical can be a problem for Fives–it is almost never one for Eights. Compare James Joyce (a Five) with Ernest Hemingway (an Eight)."
    Yep. Gotta be careful with those SX subtypes. It can make things a bit more confusing - but not too much.

    Probably best question for determining whether you are Five or Eight - Do you ever feel spacey and "out of your body" or do you feel grounded most of the time?
    What if everything's an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet. - Woody Allen

  4. #74
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Q: "I was talking with some Enneagram friends recently, and they were saying that they disagreed with your idea that we only go to the "high end" of the type in our Direction of Integration, and that we only go to the "low end" of the type in our Direction of Disintegration. I told them that this was not your view, and that you had a more complete theory. I know that you taught about this at the Part I Training, but I could still use some clarification. How can I explain this to my friends?"

    First of all, you are correct. We do not teach that the types only go to the healthy (or "high side") of their Direction of Integration, nor do we teach that we only go to the unhealthy (or "low side") of our Direction of Disintegration. We have not taught anything even remotely like that for many years. But this question has been raised repeatedly, so we want to say a thing or two that might simplify our views on the Directions.

    With regard to the Direction of Disintegration, we feel that, under increased stress, a person goes to the type in his or her Direction of Disintegration at roughly the same Level as his or her basic type. We have explained this in the Revised Edition of Personality Types, and have included descriptions of what happens with the move to the Direction of Disintegration for each type Level by Level. Seen in this way, the move in the Direction of Disintegration is neither "up" or "down," but lateral. Thus it is neither to the "high side" nor to the "low side" unless the person is already at the "high side" or "low side" of their own type.

    We see the Direction of Disintegration as a way of relieving stress by acting out behaviors that are not native to our type. It functions as a "safety valve" so that potentially overwhelming pressures and anxieties within the psyche can be let out. We feel that the Direction of Disintegration is not "bad," and can even be adaptive. It helps to slow the descent to a lower Level of our own type—a much more serious problem. In a certain sense, it is like a hasty lateral pass by a football quarterback who is being rushed by the defensive line: better to take a risk than to be sacked for sure and lose yardage. But in the case of our personalities, this move is usually unconscious and compulsive, and seldom resolves our problems. In certain circumstances, it can even make them worse. Also, by our definition, the move in the Direction of Disintegration (to the "stress point") comes into play at Level 4 or lower. In other words, "acting out" due to stress, occurs in the average to unhealthy ranges of our type.

    By contrast, the Direction of Integration describes the process of consciously integrating new aspects of our Being that begins to come into play in the healthy Levels of our type, although we can first detect it around Level 4. The Direction of Integration represents a conscious movement toward wholeness. (For this reason, Level 4 is critical in that it marks a choice point—a stage at which we are more receptive to transformative energies. At Level 5 and lower, it is harder for us to respond to these energies: our personality is more dense and defended.)
    Full article is here:

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ar...NArtLevels.asp

  5. #75
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't think it necessarily is a "bad" thing.

    As I said in an earlier post, from what I've read, we can actually take on the negative qualities of our integration point, and the positive qualities of our disintegration point.

    It's just that we may more often do the opposite: take on the positive qualities of our integration point, and the negative qualities of our disintegration point.

    What I would suggest, Metaphor, is that the shift from e8 to e5 could be both positive or negative.

    It's when the e8 is under stress, however, that they tend to do so in a negative way.

    Same goes for e5 to e7: engaging our inferior Se to go out and socialize and have a good time can be a very positive thing.

    At the same time, if we start drinking and/or doing drugs because of stress, well, that's disintegration into e7 in a negative way.
    Agreed. That's why the Riso-Hudson model of enneagram is in my opinion, fucked up.

    What's also interesting is that as 8w7's, 5 would be the natural progression for both highlander and myself, that is if we're really 8w7's.

  6. #76
    Senior Member Onceajoan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Agreed. That's why the Riso-Hudson model of enneagram is in my opinion, fucked up.

    What's also interesting is that as 8w7's, 5 would be the natural progression for both highlander and myself, that is if we're really 8w7's.
    You can be who ever the hell you want to be. The map is not the territory.
    What if everything's an illusion and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely overpaid for my carpet. - Woody Allen

  7. #77
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Q: "I was talking with some Enneagram friends recently, and they were saying that they disagreed with your idea that we only go to the "high end" of the type in our Direction of Integration, and that we only go to the "low end" of the type in our Direction of Disintegration. I told them that this was not your view, and that you had a more complete theory. I know that you taught about this at the Part I Training, but I could still use some clarification. How can I explain this to my friends?"Full article is here:

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ar...NArtLevels.asp
    They should clarify this in their theory, rather than in response to a specific question. But I still don't agree with their analysis of these movements being lateral.

    So to summarize, our type's movement in either direction is usual lateral—that is, at the same Level as our basic type—rather than up or down. Our personalities have access to the entire range of the types in both directions, although the ways and circumstances in which these different qualities will manifest is specific.
    They claim that it's too foreign to try to integrate these lateral movements but claim that their "move in the direction of integration" aka for an 8, a 2 is more natural. For myself, this is how many piles of inaccuracies. A 2 movement defies Fi.

  8. #78
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceajoan View Post
    You can be who ever the hell you want to be. The map is not the territory.
    Why thank-you. I appreciate the permission.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceajoan View Post
    However, Fives tend to be passive aggressive. Never in your face, as a rule. Fives can be overtly aggressive, but only when pushed to the brink. Fives protect themselves by creating their own space both physically and psychology to create boundaries that no one can trespass unless given permission. I would never say that a Five communicates directly.

    Very true. Yet, I would think it would be rather hard for an Eight to see themselves as a Five unless that Eight considers themselves to be a hermit and an intellectual. Eights are aggressive and out there - Fives are just "out there" - spacey.

    Yep. Gotta be careful with those SX subtypes. It can make things a bit more confusing - but not too much.

    Probably best question for determining whether you are Five or Eight - Do you ever feel spacey and "out of your body" or do you feel grounded most of the time?
    This post demonstrates exactly why I think the enneagram system is a bit inferior to MBTI (at least in my case).

    I'm a more-extroverted-than-normal INTJ, you could very well call me an xNTJ, but I am, if I had to choose one, an introvert.

    I also have come to believe that I'm an enneagram 5, although I thought I was an 8w9 to begin with.

    I came out Sx/So on a test, but I don't know whether to believe it; I probably am Sx, though, just not sure about Sx/Sp or Sx/So.

    And see, I'd say I can be "spacey" or "in your face", depending on whether I'm extroverting or introverting more.

    It's not an issue of being spacey and not being able to be in your face; it's an issue of which one I happen to be at any one time (whether by choice, or not).

    I might tend to be more spacey than in your face, but it's not just one or the other; it often comes down to a choice as to which style will accomplish my goals.

    If I wanna contemplate all the different perspectives of a matter, I'll use more Ni; if I wanna get in your face to get something done, I'll use more Te.

    MBTI provides a very clear and simple language for this; enneagram seems to create a bit too much of a false dichotomy, imo.

    Also, with regards to the bolded: I can be a very direct communicator: once again, it's all about the extent to which I'm utilizing Te...

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Why thank-you. I appreciate the permission.
    *Laughs at enneagram-8-style response*

    *Wonders if Highlander finally realizes the difference*

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