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  1. #31
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    This dovetails with my response to your "Oh, how it irks me" thread, in that I don't exhibit (nor particularly like) the habits of indirection and withdrawal that this forum's declared IJs and IPs evidently show.
    You've piqued my interest. Can you cite some specific examples?

  2. #32
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merkw View Post
    Those descriptions apply to me equally. I do, in fact, spend more time with scientific pursuits, rather than those which are artistic, though. But is that really enough to determine my wing?

    So, "Papa" Ezra, what wing am I? I must know.
    Even by your speech I can tell you're a 5w6. But this isn't really factual evidence.

    You're high in Thinking (88%) which leans towards a 6 wing. 5s can easily be Fs, and when they are, this normally implies a 4 wing. This is because a 4 is part of the Feeling triad, so is almost always going to be a Feeler. (However, 3s are the exception to the rule; they are a special case which I will not go into here.) While 6s are pretty much unlimited when it comes to MBTT, a 5w6 or a 6w5 will nearly always be a Thinker. On top of this, you've said you dedicate yourself more to technical pursuits. A 5w4 would basically be repulsed by this kind of thing.

    I think you have relatively balanced wings, with a leaning towards 5w6. This much I can offer you. Beware of spending too much time looking at wings though; I've only really begun seen them as a tool for identifying different types (recently, I've been caught up in trying to identify my wing). For example, take the 8w9. At first glance, it looks nothing like the 8, to the point where 8w9s may not even identify with various descriptions of the 8 but of the 9, because said descriptions are so biased towards 8w7s; the 'stereotypical' 8. However, if someone introduces a description which helps the individual to identify themselves, then they will find their type: "what is this new breed of 8 that is gentler, kinder and quieter?". So a 5w4 may very easily be mistaken for a 4, simply because their wing is strong, and their behaviour may overshadow their true motivation or fixation, which is of the 5. Once you understand that motivations are more important than type behaviour, it will become easier to identify your type. However, if you really want to label yourself complete with wing, I suggest 5w6 would fit very comfortably for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    I hereby add to the general confusion.

    Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||| 74%
    Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||| 34%
    Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||||||||| 62%
    Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||| 22%
    Type 5 Detachment |||| 18%
    Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 62%
    Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||||| 42%
    Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||||||||| 66%
    Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||| 50%
    Yeah, but do you have trouble determining your type? That's what this thread is about. For people who can't decide. From your results, I'd say 8w9 or 1w9 was not implausible. I'd say 8w9 was more likely, but this is only because you scored higher on 7 than on 2. Nonetheless, this is merely other types' behaviour, so you could well be a 1. What do you think you are?

    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    1. Having a hard time relating to the examples given as 3w4s, are they accurate?
    Show me the examples of 3w4s that you've read about.

    2. Actually, I'm more comfortable if I'm not so much in the spotlight. I'm not a behind-the-scenes person, and am more comfortable in a middle office role vs front for e.g., but I'm usually being pushed to the front. Communication is usually easy for me. But I don't like being a role model and am happier in a team vs in the lead. I'm not emotionally needy with everyone, I'd rather the affection of those who matter to me.
    This could be related more to Introversion than your being a 3w4. Are you sure you're an ENTP?

    3. Honesty and kindness are important to me. In a relationship, compassion would be a key value in a partner to me for e.g.
    This doesn't rule out 3w4.

    4. lol. Confused.

    Three With A Four Wing: The Professional

    Examples of 3w4s
    Some well-known examples of 3w4s are Barbra Streisand, Oprah Winfrey, Tom Cruise, Ben Kingsley, Madonna, Sting, Richard Gere, Michael Jordan, Whitney Houston, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Werner Erhard.


    Levels of Development

    Healthy

    Level 1
    Achievers let go of their belief that their self-worth depends on others' perception of them. They can now discover their true identity and their heart's desire. Achievers' also satisfy their basic desire to be valued. They become self-accepting, kind, and genuine.

    Level 2
    Achievers learn what others value and become more valuable in that sense. They feel they have unlimited potential at this stage.

    Level 3
    Achievers develop themselves and their talents at this stage. They become excellent at whatever they do. They are effective communicators and become popular role models for other people.

    Average
    Level 4
    Achievers start to fear that they will not get the attention that they desire, because others' accomplishments overshadow theirs. They drive themselves to achieve more.

    Level 5
    Achievers start to impress people because they fear they will lose the positive regard of others, so they are simultaneously ambitious and self-doubting. At this stage, they have intimacy problems.

    Level 6
    Achievers attempt to convince others of their huge successes, because they fear that others will not notice them if they are not hugely successful. They are competitive, arrogant, and secretly needy.

    Unhealthy
    Level 7
    Achievers at this level fear they are failing and that their claims are fraudulent, so they start to deceive themselves and others. They feel depressed and empty inside.

    Level 8
    Deceit at this level is incredibly high, and they use deceit to cover their mental deterioration. They hide their emotional illness and bad deeds.

    Level 9
    Unhealthy people at this level may lose control of their repressed rage, and they seek revenge on real or imaginary tormentors, attempting to bring down whoever has rejected them.
    Why does this confuse you?

  3. #33
    Senior Member MerkW's Avatar
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    Despite my thinking being high (88%), my intuition is even higher (100%). I hear that 5w4 relies more on intuition than on thinking. Also, contrary to what you have stated, I have heard that despite the 4 wing, the 5 generally makes a 5w4 a thinker.
    "The mathematician's patterns, like the painter's or the poet's must be beautiful; the ideas like the colours or the words, must fit together in a harmonious way. Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics..." - G.H. Hardy

    "Another roof, another proof." - Paul Erdős

    INTJ (I = 100, N = 100, T = 88, J = 43)
    Solitary/Idiosyncratic, 5w6 sp/sx
    RL(x)EI (RlxE|I|)- Inquisitive Dominant
    Reserved Idealist
    ILI-Ni/INTp

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Show me the examples of 3w4s that you've read about.
    "Some well-known examples of 3w4s are Barbra Streisand, Oprah Winfrey, Tom Cruise, Ben Kingsley, Madonna, Sting, Richard Gere, Michael Jordan, Whitney Houston, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Werner Erhard."

    I'm not really able to relate to these examples, which is why I'm uncertain that I'm 3w4. Not so much the descriptions, but the examples - they strike me as very driven, public, type A persons, and as you've pointed out, I generally test low on aggression?

    This could be related more to Introversion than your being a 3w4. Are you sure you're an ENTP?
    Borderline I/E, but most INTPs will boot me out of their camp anytime I say I'm an I. I take this to mean that I'm hopefully a more developed ENTP such that I'm engaging the auxilliary function more vs being trapped in Ne-ness.

    Why does this confuse you?
    The levels of development - if 3w4 identifying characteristics/motivations are the self-image and need of recognition, wouldn't that somehow mean a mature (level 1/2 type) 3w4 is not really a 3w4; since in that description, they "let go" of that need for external acceptance and instead go for inner acceptance - is this to be intepreted as a loss of drive then?

    So the inherent question I have is, does one type develop to another type over time? With the MBTI, the types are stickier/rarely changes, as I understand?

    thanks for your help in this btw. Ezra means "help" in Hebrew, doesn't it?

  5. #35
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
    You've piqued my interest. Can you cite some specific examples?
    Admissions are in this thread from start to finish, acknowledging specific terms used therein ("over-thinking," "procrastinating," "bottle up," "passive-aggressive," "ignore," "dismiss out of hand," etcetera). There are also references here, here; and, to complete the set, here. By no means exhaustive, but comprehensive, as you should have expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Yeah, but do you have trouble determining your type?
    No. But though I was merrily interjecting myself, the difference in accuracy between the Enneagram and MBTI is compelling -- insofar as one result clarifies the other.

  6. #36
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aelan View Post
    "Some well-known examples of 3w4s are Barbra Streisand, Oprah Winfrey, Tom Cruise, Ben Kingsley, Madonna, Sting, Richard Gere, Michael Jordan, Whitney Houston, F. Scott Fitzgerald, and Werner Erhard."

    I'm not really able to relate to these examples, which is why I'm uncertain that I'm 3w4. Not so much the descriptions, but the examples - they strike me as very driven, public, type A persons, and as you've pointed out, I generally test low on aggression?
    That's because you're looking at celebrities. There are a million 3w4s out there, and not all of them are in Hollywood. Does Mel Gibson strike you as a very driven, public, type A person? He's a cp6w5. How about Robin Williams? 7w6. And Kevin Costner? He's a 9w8. They're driven, public and type A because they're celebrities. Obviously 3w4s will probably be more driven, but a 3w4 - unlike a 3w2 - is all about competing with oneself as opposed to others. It's a naturally introverted 3 (that isn't to say 3w4s can't be extraverted; indeed, a great many are. ENTJ is typical for a 3w4).

    Borderline I/E, but most INTPs will boot me out of their camp anytime I say I'm an I. I take this to mean that I'm hopefully a more developed ENTP such that I'm engaging the auxilliary function more vs being trapped in Ne-ness.
    What types would you seriously never consider for yourself in a million years?

    The levels of development - if 3w4 identifying characteristics/motivations are the self-image and need of recognition, wouldn't that somehow mean a mature (level 1/2 type) 3w4 is not really a 3w4; since in that description, they "let go" of that need for external acceptance and instead go for inner acceptance - is this to be intepreted as a loss of drive then?
    It is inner acceptance, but I think it's actually easier for a 3w4 to accept themselves than the almost 100%-outward 3w2. This is because the 3w4 is introspective, thanks to their 4 wing.

    So the inherent question I have is, does one type develop to another type over time? With the MBTI, the types are stickier/rarely changes, as I understand?
    In the Enneagram, you do not change types. You are more likely to change your Myers-Briggs type than your E-type, simply because your E-type will not change. You grow; you can integrate and disintegrate, or at least temporarily go to your security and stress points (which is what most people do when they think they've (dis)integrated), but your base type remains the same. You can, after all, only have one motivation in life.

    thanks for your help in this btw. Ezra means "help" in Hebrew, doesn't it?
    It does indeed.

    My advice is to spend some time pondering your motivations. Then come back to me. I couldn't really see an INTP 3w4, simply because an IP 3 doesn't seem right. On the celebs, it's because they're celebrities that you don't identify with them. But there are plenty of non-celebrities who are 3s.
    Last edited by Ezra; 12-25-2007 at 07:56 AM.

  7. #37
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    Papa Ezra! I'm back. Thanks for your email and sorry for not replying.

    Thought it better here vs to derail the other thread.

    Yes, I was reading through their descriptions and realised 4s don't sound very NT in a sense.

    I can see where the "artisan" sensitivity could come about - Used to write poetry and was published before. Learnt music (piano) from about the age of 2. stopped formal lessons at 10, but now play whatever I want - if I can hear a piece, I can replicate it to a fair degree. Right now I'm into dance. Don't ask me to perform though, I just want to dance.

    re F vs T:

    I used to be strong T, but recently tested as moderate T. Previously borderline E. Strong N, T, P. (Official test by an MBTI administrator - done when I was 17. Government required it *lol* don't ask.). Now borderline E, strong N, moderate T, P. (Official test one-on-one with an MBTI trained administrator - 27. Job required it).

    Socially, strong T females face a fair bit of resistance in my country. I'm also in a job which requires a great deal of F as it is very people focused, and I'm out of my country on work about 2-3 months a year in foreign places, in the last 3 of 5 years. In a sense, I've had to engage my Fe more, if you like. Doesn't allow I for sure. To get people to work in a team requires that they trust you will take care of them, and as I'm frequently the youngest in my job, the Ne helps to intuite what would work, and frequently, the answer is Fe to catch their hearts, and Ti to catch their minds. I trust my intuition above all else.

    But at the same time, logic is required in my field as well. The pull between Fe and Ti is not so simple to explain. In fact it causes a lot of insecurity to me. On this board I come across more F than T probably. But at the end of the day, I'd rather make decisions with my head vs heart. The challenge is more trying to reconcile it IRL to come across intelligent, but approachable too.

    * If I were an ENFP, I think relationships would be much easier for me IRL.

    Re which types will I not consider myself in a million years:

    Any S led function. J is hard for me to engage, but because of my job, I have to make decisions, so that has in a way balanced my P out to moderate, I think.

    Re shame led triad: Probably part of growing up, as an ENTP, you somehow meet everyone's expectations easily. And more is expected of you. So in a way, you internalise it and never allow yourself to fail. But I guess we all grow up, so I'm less a stickler on that now, as you'd never get anything done if you want it perfect - I think this is why the scores with the next triad are only 7% different.

    If you'd allow me to drop the Enneagram types and terms to say what motivates me, it'd be these:

    - family wellbeing. For this, I'll have to succeed career-wise. I'm not in a job I naturally enjoy, as it does not give space for creativity in the abstract sense I like and space to dream, and has too much people pleasing for my tastes, but I mean to do it well anyway? There're things I don't like about it, there're things I like too, but at the end of the day, I'll do it.

    - self - to be more compassionate to others. I've been involved with volunteer work for the last 10 years, but I'd like to do more? Be more patient. Less hard on myself. To find balance. Bring refinement and grace to things I do. To not act in haste, but to let time tell on some things.

    I'm not sure that helps. . Perhaps where you're seeing the conflict is simply between duty and personal desires.

  8. #38
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Right, disregarding all test results following from what you just told me, I can only see that the Fear triad and E8 are possible. And while I don't think you're an 8, the possibility remains.

    5w6 is not unlikely. Neither is 6w5. 7 is unlikely, but, again, possible.

    As a woman 8, you can look like a 2. How far do you identify with 8? I think 8w9 is a great possibility than 8w7. Also, as a side reference, tell me how you feel about 7.

    Then, in some detail, tell me why you don't think you are a 6 or a 5.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Right, disregarding all test results following from what you just told me, I can only see that the Fear triad and E8 are possible. And while I don't think you're an 8, the possibility remains.

    5w6 is not unlikely. Neither is 6w5. 7 is unlikely, but, again, possible.

    As a woman 8, you can look like a 2. How far do you identify with 8? I think 8w9 is a great possibility than 8w7. Also, as a side reference, tell me how you feel about 7.

    Then, in some detail, tell me why you don't think you are a 6 or a 5.
    Ok, let's go one by one. Cancelled out where it isn't like. Bolded where very true. Unbolded where it isn't true nor false (too general in a way)

    * Edit: I was doing the same for 6s and 5s, but realised too much cancelled out, so it wouldn't work.

    8w7
    ===============
    Awakened Eights with a 7 wing are often expansive, and powerful. Gregarious and generous, they may display a cheerful bravado. Can be forceful but with a light touch, funny. Often have a sense of humor about themselves. Generally more extroverted, ambitious and materialistic. May talk loud and be sociable partygoers.

    Sometimes driven to bring the new into being. Can be visionary, idealistic, enterprising. Willing to take risks. May think more clearly than Eights with a 9 wing; 7 wing brings an intellectual capacity.

    When more entranced, aggression combines with gluttony to form an almost virulent tendency to addiction. Many entranced Eights with a 7 wing have had drug and alcohol problems or tensions around addiction. Prone to temperamental ups and downs - can be moody, egocentric, quick to anger. Tendency to court chaos, inflate themselves narcissistically. Some are ruthlessly materialistic. Can use people up, suck them dry. Maybe be explosive or violent, prone to distorted overreaction.


    8w9

    Healthy Eights with a 9 wing often have an aura of preternatural calm, like they haven't had a self-doubt in decades. (It could be why at work I lead teams older than myself). Take their authority for granted - queen or king of all they survey. May be gentle, kind-hearted, quieter. Often nurturing, protective parents; steady, supportive friends. Informal and unpretentious, patient, laconic, generally somewhat introverted. Sometimes a dry or ironic sense of humor. May have an aura of implicit, simmering anger rather like a sleeping volcano. Slow to erupt but when they do it's sudden and explosive.

    When entranced, the 9 wing brings an Eight a kind of callous numbness. They can be oblivious to the force of their anger until after they've hurt someone. Calmly dominating, colder; may have an indifference to softer emotions. If very unhealthy, they can be mean without remorse or aggressive in the service of stupid ends. Paranoid plotting, muddled thinking, moral laziness. Can be vengeful in ill-conceived ways, abuse those they love, don't know when to quit.

    7w6 <- this sounds very likely actually.
    =========

    Healthy Sevens with a 6 wing are responsible, faithful, lovable, nervous and funny. They are generally more oriented to relationship and want to be accepted by other people. Can be steady, more willing to stick with commitments; the 6 wing brings a longer sense of time. Usually funny or enjoy a good laugh - an amazing number of comedians are Sevens with a 6 wing. More openly vulnerable, have an unguarded, tender sweetness. Some have trouble expressing anger even when they are justified. May evade or finesse authority but still aware of it like a 6. Canny and practical, they look for the deals and the loopholes.

    When more entranced, may have surprise episodes of sensitivity and insecurity. Their feelings can be easily hurt sometimes. Sensitive especially to comparisons. May avoid putting themselves to the test. Grow dependent and addicted to other people, afraid to be alone, suspicious and skittish. Can feel guilt easily, may project their conscience onto others and then act irresponsibly. Make themselves shallow, fall in and out of love easily. Sometimes breezily betray others by running away. Can be reckless, unstable, and self-destructive.

    When Sevens have a counterphobic 6 wing their idealism can motivate a sincere desire for social reform. May work hard for a cause. Can be antiauthority, passive/aggressive, flippant, defiant. Some report hating to be told what to do. Clashes with Ones likely. May call down trouble on themselves. Complain about the status quo. The realm of hippie rebellion.


    7w8

    ============

    Seven With an 8 Wing
    When healthy, Sevens with an 8 wing are often generous, gregarious and expansive. Tend to be exceptionally loyal to their friends, especially when social subtype. Leap aggressively to the defense of those they care for. Might seem loud or boisterous although some are urbane and witty. Enjoy social celebrations, storytelling, jokes, food and travel. Generally have a strong self-confidence for worldly matters and getting what they want. Talent for making something out of nothing - entrepreneurial. Usually share what they have when healthy, want everyone to enjoy their sense of bounty and wide range of interests.

    When more entranced, they may be demanding, displaying a selfish impatience and a self-justifying narcissism. May want what they want right now. Aggressive, hasty drive to acquire money and material options and recognition. Can demand that the people in their lives say only what the Seven wants to hear - sugarcoated truth. Lash out angrily if reality doesn't meet their expectations; sometimes vengeful. Often perfectionistic as parents (low side of 1). Moralize to others and then are themselves irresponsible. Amnesia for promises made in an expansive moment. Particular difficulty with sexual fidelity.

  10. #40
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    I would rule out 8 entirely. I think you're almost certainly a 7w6, and as you've identified with most of the healthier aspects of this type, I'd say you're an average-to-healthy 7w6. Clearly you take aspects of the 8, because it's your wing, and because 8w7s can often look like 7s anyway. A 7 you are.

    Any problems? Good.

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