Trying to type an ISTP/ISTJ

[INTJMom]

Well, there is this...uh...friend of mine. He insists that he's an ISTJ, but I think that he's more of an ISTP. To break the deadlock, I'll ask you guys your opinions. He's not such a big fan of online tests; besides, I hardly ever get him to do what I want him to when I ask. I'll give you a few examples:

- He's a generous, giving person, but unscrupulous people will exploit this
- He has a lot of self-confidence
- He lives for the moment
- He can be insensitive, yet he seems to dislike conflict
- He will listen to your opinion and constructive criticism, but he often refuses to apply it in favour of his own (sometimes erroneous) judgements
- He's impulsive
- He's VERY poor with money
- He's a rational person, but gets emotional when upset
- He can be controlling at times
- He tends to delay things
- He can back up his actions with words, but he doesn't do this consistently
- He likes company when he goes driving or on his various voyages
- He's a competent office manager
- He rarely looks back upon the past and never thinks about the future
- He sees the good in people
- He is a person of morality - but he puts too much faith in other people's ethical standards
- He tends to show his love to his children by doing things for them, rather than through expression
- He can be judgemental of others
- He often strikes me as a laid-back person
- Does things without really expecting much in return
- He rarely asks others for help
- He's very good with his hands
- He strikes me as being a practical person, having known him for a long time
- Enjoys alcohol

I have an ISTJ male and two ISTP males in my life and you did not give enough information to tell the difference.
Besides, since you think he's an ISTP, aren't you going to heavily weigh the evidence in that direction?
Why does he think he's an ISTJ?

 

[INTJMom]

Since you're an INTJ, maybe it would be better to look at the fault's of each type and see which one fits him better.
I'm not going to tell you which is which.
When he is "beside himself" or at his worst, which is he more like?
Select one grouping.

• having a gloomy view of a future
• suggesting impractical ideas
• acting impulsively, and changing things without any thought
• having intense negative feelings towards others (though these might not be expressed)

• displaying intense feelings towards others, or insisting on things being done without any logical basis
• being very sensitive to criticism
• having a gloomy view of the future
• attributing unrealistic negative meaning to others actions or statements

 

[DaRick]

More information about his introversion/extraversion - I realise that I haven't really addressed that:

- He dislikes picking up the phone - when I ring him, he rarely answers
- His 'best friends' really appear to be his family
- He doesn't actually HAVE that many friends
- He seems to spend a lot of his free time working on various physical projects around the house (i.e - mowing, tiling, etc.), rather than going out
- He does tend to initiate conversation
- He tries to leave certain social events as soon as he can

Now for the other comments:

ISTP's I know are not excactly people loving persons and do not necesarily see good in people. It's the other way around, they tend to be reserved and sarcastic and think the worst of people. (That might not be the general ISTP trait.)

Well, this guy does take solace in irony and sarcasm, particularly when he's in a bad mood. He's more reserved than outgoing - something I should've addressed earlier, I know. He does think the worst of people when he realises that people have screwed him over, sending him into an insult-ridden, sarcastic, explosive frenzy, but not before.

Talk more about this. What, in your mind, makes you consider him a "competent" office manager? What are his strengths and weaknesses in that position?

Uh...well, I don't exactly know him like the back of my hand, but I'll try to clarify:
- He gives me the impression that he's the only one who is able to really do his job properly
- Other people in his office pass tasks on to him because they are unable to do them
- He is the only person who will attempt to catch up on work that he's missed
- He does, according to himself, talk calmly and rationally to customers with bankruptcy, bad credit ratings or with a lack of intellect, but it wouldn't surprise me if he went into 'attack mode' if he was still seething over something that happened to him earlier.
- He has told me that he sometimes leave his office early to go home and he doesn't always arrive on time, although due to the apparently generous nature of his boss, nobody cares

They are reserved, strong willed and adventurous people.

Well, the first two seem to apply to this guy - I explained how his confidence in his own judgements often renders him unable to apply the opinions of others (without really being prodded anyway). I'm not as certain about the 'adventurous' part, although he enjoys travelling to new places and trying new foods than say, his wife.

edit: i have a feeling you want to type him as a T because he doesn't have strong Fe. but xxFP wouldn't have strong Fe necessarily.

Yes, true - but xxFP wouldn't have Fe as one of the four main functions - just as one of the shadow functions. When operational, this guy's Fe is quite apparent - and it is often utilised in a negative sense. The inferior function is the most simplistic 'non-shadow' function - and this guy's Fe is 'all or nothing', so to speak. That's part of the reason why I'm reluctant to type him as an ISFP.

I have an ISTJ male and two ISTP males in my life and you did not give enough information to tell the difference.

Really? It's funny how others were able to tell the difference.

Besides, since you think he's an ISTP, aren't you going to heavily weigh the evidence in that direction?

Um...it depends on other people's vulnerability to 'peer pressure', I guess. I do think that he's an ISTP, but I never once said that my suspicions were actually correct. If I thought that they were, why would I bother asking people for their thoughts?

Why does he think he's an ISTJ?

He cites his ability and need to organise himself. I do think that's a bit tenuous, but anyway. I think it's more a question of when he organises himself - he doesn't tend to do this until the last minute. He also cites his need for a decisive outcome to an event, although he delays his decisions, anyway. He dislikes leaving things incomplete, although his inability to create a long term plan inevitably means that he does. There are other reasons, but he hasn't told me all of them.

Since you're an INTJ, maybe it would be better to look at the fault's of each type and see which one fits him better.
I'm not going to tell you which is which.
When he is "beside himself" or at his worst, which is he more like?
Select one grouping.

-having a gloomy view of a future
-suggesting impractical ideas
-acting impulsively, and changing things without any thought
-having intense negative feelings towards others (though these might not be expressed)


-displaying intense feelings towards others, or insisting on things being done -without any logical basis
-being very sensitive to criticism
-having a gloomy view of the future
-attributing unrealistic negative meaning to others actions or statements

Hmm...you took these from teamtechnology.co.uk . The second group applies to him more.

 

[Athenian200]

My guess is ISFP. But it's hard to say because he also has traits that would point to INFP and ESFP. Except for the part about putting too much faith in other people's ethical standards, which sounds more xSFJ... He's really mixed up, personality wise, but aren't we all?

 

[Natrushka]

More information about his introversion/extraversion - I realise that I haven't really addressed that:

- He dislikes picking up the phone - when I ring him, he rarely answers
- His 'best friends' really appear to be his family
- He doesn't actually HAVE that many friends
- He seems to spend a lot of his free time working on various physical projects around the house (i.e - mowing, tiling, etc.), rather than going out
- He does tend to initiate conversation
- He tries to leave certain social events as soon as he can

Other than initiating conversations, you've described me, an INTJ. I don't know about other ISTJs but when it comes to the phone this is one of the areas where my husband and I are exact opposites. I don't answer. A ringing phone is an annoyance, to be ignored and dealt with later. He answers. A ringing phone must be answered, that's just how it is.

He cites his ability and need to organise himself. I do think that's a bit tenuous, but anyway. I think it's more a question of when he organises himself - he doesn't tend to do this until the last minute. He also cites his need for a decisive outcome to an event, although he delays his decisions, anyway. He dislikes leaving things incomplete, although his inability to create a long term plan inevitably means that he does. There are other reasons, but he hasn't told me all of them.

All this sounds very J to me.

 

[DaRick]

Other than initiating conversations, you've described me, an INTJ. I don't know about other ISTJs but when it comes to the phone this is one of the areas where my husband and I are exact opposites. I don't answer. A ringing phone is an annoyance, to be ignored and dealt with later. He answers. A ringing phone must be answered, that's just how it is.

I don't answer the phone, either. It's not usually for me, anyway.

All this sounds very J to me.

Some of it does. But his inability to really reach decisive outcomes and complete things makes me think otherwise. Also, due to his inability to organise himself over the long-term, he cannot really have Te as dominant or auxiliary function. Also, he would have to have an inferior Ne function to be an ISTJ. He doesn't display the paranoia which would be associated with an inferior Ne function. Instead, the aggression and thin-skinned nature of his personality when upset demonstrates a clear inferior Fe.

 

[Natrushka]

But as the Eight Function test shows, not all the functions develop in the classic MBTI manner. Se is 'supposed' to be my 'worst' function, Fe is, however - and the jump between the two is huge.

Instead, the aggression and thin-skinned nature of his personality when upset demonstrates a clear inferior Fe.

Not to sure about this, DaRick.

Lenore Thomson on Fe

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/1573-distrustful-fe.html

Bottom line, it's hard to type someone third hand. It's hard enough first hand online. Oy.

 

[INTJMom]

My ISTP husband has the most annoying habit of doing a major job and then leaving the finishing touches undone - for years! I am still waiting for the molding (or whatever it's called) to go on around the laminate wood floor he put in about 4 -5 years ago. This is a typical behavior.

He is great at cleaning up the whole kitchen in 15 minutes, but he doesn't do the detailing. He leaves food particles in the drains etc., so I have to go in behind him and finish.

 

[Natrushka]

My X is tempted to say that's a Y-thing. But that's only because at 5:00 AM this morning I had to gather a dish, a cup and a soda can that were left out overnight during the 2 hours he was up while I slept.

 

[INTJMom]

...Hmm...you took these from teamtechnology.co.uk . The second group applies to him more.

The second group represents the shadow of the ISTP. (I know you know that. I'm just responding here for everyone else's sake.)

I find it hard to believe that your friend is a successful manager. My ISTP husband is horrible at leading other people. He'd rather do it all himself to make sure it's done right. One of his faults is that he's not good at delegating authority. Though he can be lots of fun in a relaxed atmosphere, he can be condescending and arrogant when working with other people who are not "as good as" he is.

 

[wildcat]

Well, there is this...uh...friend of mine. He insists that he's an ISTJ, but I think that he's more of an ISTP. To break the deadlock, I'll ask you guys your opinions. He's not such a big fan of online tests; besides, I hardly ever get him to do what I want him to when I ask. I'll give you a few examples:

- He's a generous, giving person, but unscrupulous people will exploit this
- He has a lot of self-confidence
- He lives for the moment
- He can be insensitive, yet he seems to dislike conflict
- He will listen to your opinion and constructive criticism, but he often refuses to apply it in favour of his own (sometimes erroneous) judgements
- He's impulsive
- He's VERY poor with money
- He's a rational person, but gets emotional when upset
- He can be controlling at times
- He tends to delay things
- He can back up his actions with words, but he doesn't do this consistently
- He likes company when he goes driving or on his various voyages
- He's a competent office manager
- He rarely looks back upon the past and never thinks about the future
- He sees the good in people
- He is a person of morality - but he puts too much faith in other people's ethical standards
- He tends to show his love to his children by doing things for them, rather than through expression
- He can be judgemental of others
- He often strikes me as a laid-back person
- Does things without really expecting much in return
- He rarely asks others for help
- He's very good with his hands
- He strikes me as being a practical person, having known him for a long time
- Enjoys alcohol

ISTP to the core.

 

[anii]

Well, there is this...uh...friend of mine. He insists that he's an ISTJ, but I think that he's more of an ISTP. To break the deadlock, I'll ask you guys your opinions. He's not such a big fan of online tests; besides, I hardly ever get him to do what I want him to when I ask. I'll give you a few examples:

- He's a generous, giving person, but unscrupulous people will exploit this
- He has a lot of self-confidence
- He lives for the moment
- He can be insensitive, yet he seems to dislike conflict
- He will listen to your opinion and constructive criticism, but he often refuses to apply it in favour of his own (sometimes erroneous) judgements
- He's impulsive
- He's VERY poor with money
- He's a rational person, but gets emotional when upset
- He can be controlling at times
- He tends to delay things
- He can back up his actions with words, but he doesn't do this consistently
- He likes company when he goes driving or on his various voyages
- He's a competent office manager
- He rarely looks back upon the past and never thinks about the future
- He sees the good in people
- He is a person of morality - but he puts too much faith in other people's ethical standards
- He tends to show his love to his children by doing things for them, rather than through expression
- He can be judgemental of others
- He often strikes me as a laid-back person
- Does things without really expecting much in return
- He rarely asks others for help
- He's very good with his hands
- He strikes me as being a practical person, having known him for a long time
- Enjoys alcohol

You have partially described my ISTP brother/father.

- Does your friend not only get emotional when upset but it verges on irrational, almost hysterical and aggressive?
- Is he often late, and procrastinates on projects but refuses to relinquish control of them? (Say by paying an outside vendor to finish the job.)
- Is he a connoisseur of pleasures - drink, sensation, etc? Does he seem to take personally a refusal to partake of his vices?
- Does he actively, and contemptuously, flout authority?
- Does he love to drive, and drive fast? Does he wear those silly leather racing gloves?
- Does he resist any attempts to control his behavior.
- Does he use lying almost as an expedient communication tool?
- Do you often feel he is withholding information?
- Does he only comply with treatment, advice, etc. after there has been a clear order to do so, with harsh consequences if he fails to do so? Does he do so grudgingly, with much complaining?
- Has he been known to cheat in relationships, and then blame his partner for "driving him to it"?
- Is he uncomfortable with emotions, and emotional displays to the point of seeming insensitive or even cruel. If a woman is crying, does he handle it by saying "stop crying" rather than attempting to comfort her?
- Does he play sports, but takes it way too seriously?
- Is he egalitarian, live-and-let-live?
- Does he present as the "strong, silent type" ala Dirty Harry?
- Does he prefer casual and sometimes sloppy to tucked in and dressed up?

I'm aware that bias might be in my clues... but that is my experience. To possibly contrast with ISTJ, I have another brother who is this type. My brothers are very different, excepting their mutual love of beer and of staring at American football on TV for hours on end.

Hints someone might be ISTJ:
- They are *Good* with money, have been all their lives. May even work in a financial field.
- Likes to collect things; has a stamp collection or similar.
- Obsessively neat. Somewhat of a control freak about it. (My brother's wife calls him "the male Martha Stewart."
- Very rigid in general outlook; can make one feel inadequate or not quite good enough in their presence.
- Quick wit, sharp-edged sense of humor.
- Acquisitive, and very tight with the purse-strings.
- Likes Tradition. May return to a structured religious practice even after a brief sabbatical, say as a rebellious college student.
- Uber-responsible, care-taking (in concrete ways).
- Values stability, home and hearth, family values, etc.

The areas of conflict I've witnessed between the ISTP and ISTJ - this might help distinguish them further - is when the ISTJ perceives the ISTP as reckless, chaotic, and almost anarchistic. If this threatens the ISTJ's sense of order and especially his family domain, he has been quite harsh in setting limits. The ISTP, for his part, takes this surprisingly in stride, is not offended, and goes on his merry way.

That's all I have.

 

[DaRick]

But as the Eight Function test shows, not all the functions develop in the classic MBTI manner. Se is 'supposed' to be my 'worst' function, Fe is, however - and the jump between the two is huge.

Not to sure about this, DaRick.

Lenore Thomson on Fe

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/mbti-enneagram-other-personality-matrices/1573-distrustful-fe.html

Bottom line, it's hard to type someone third hand. It's hard enough first hand online. Oy.

Fair enough. I dislike Lenore Thomson's definitions, anyway. They are so long-winded as to confound me. But even so, this guy's aggression under stress demonstrates a use of Fe to create conflict/anarchy and therefore oppose social norms, rather than adhering to customs, which would dictate that they shouldn't create conflict. That 'eight functions test' is somewhat strange anyway - my Fe and Fi were much lower than they should've been and my Ne was probably too high. My Se was my worst function though.

The second group represents the shadow of the ISTP. (I know you know that. I'm just responding here for everyone else's sake.)

I find it hard to believe that your friend is a successful manager. My ISTP husband is horrible at leading other people. He'd rather do it all himself to make sure it's done right. One of his faults is that he's not good at delegating authority. Though he can be lots of fun in a relaxed atmosphere, he can be condescending and arrogant when working with other people who are not "as good as" he is.

Actually, I couldn't really remember what shadow was which - I quickly thought 'second'. Your selflessness is...uh...gratifying, but do remember that everybody has a different method of devising answers through variable thought processes, so we should probably respect that, as well.

My friend is a manager due to the relative incompetence of the other staff in his office, not because he wants to be. That's the impression I get. Trust me, he's not a natural leader. The only group he really feels even slightly comfortable leading would probably be his family.

- Does your friend not only get emotional when upset but it verges on irrational, almost hysterical and aggressive?

I would say so, yes.

- Is he often late, and procrastinates on projects but refuses to relinquish control of them? (Say by paying an outside vendor to finish the job.)

He can occassionally be late to certain places, I believe, but not always for reasons he can control. He can procrastinate on projects (i.e - painting) and dislikes outside input unless he really finds it necessary.

- Is he a connoisseur of pleasures - drink, sensation, etc? Does he seem to take personally a refusal to partake of his vices?

He does like his alcohol, certainly. He does get somewhat irritated when other people tell him not to drink.

- Does he actively, and contemptuously, flout authority?

Well, he is politically incorrect, but he is still a law-abiding citizen.

- Does he love to drive, and drive fast? Does he wear those silly leather racing gloves?

He doesn't mind driving, but I don't know about driving fast.

- Does he resist any attempts to control his behavior?

Yes, but in a light-hearted way.

- Does he use lying almost as an expedient communication tool?

No - his morals and ethics are too well developed. He does occassionally use 'emotional blackmail', though.

- Do you often feel he is withholding information?

Not really. This is more something I tend to do.

- Does he only comply with treatment, advice, etc. after there has been a clear order to do so, with harsh consequences if he fails to do so? Does he do so grudgingly, with much complaining?

Yes, and still with much complaining.

- Has he been known to cheat in relationships, and then blame his partner for "driving him to it"?

No, but he has been acrimoniously divorced.

- Is he uncomfortable with emotions, and emotional displays to the point of seeming insensitive or even cruel. If a woman is crying, does he handle it by saying "stop crying" rather than attempting to comfort her?

I saw him once respond with shock when a woman was crying by just standing there in shock.

- Does he play sports, but takes it way too seriously?

Not sure.

- Is he egalitarian, live-and-let-live?

I actually don't know - he appears to beb though.

- Does he present as the "strong, silent type" ala Dirty Harry?

He can do.

- Does he prefer casual and sometimes sloppy to tucked in and dressed up?

Yes.

Hints someone might be ISTJ:

- They are *Good* with money, have been all their lives. May even work in a financial field.

No, he's financially terrible. But he has worked in financial fields, to varying degrees of success.

- Likes to collect things; has a stamp collection or similar.

No.

- Obsessively neat. Somewhat of a control freak about it. (My brother's wife calls him "the male Martha Stewart."

NO.

- Very rigid in general outlook; can make one feel inadequate or not quite good enough in their presence.

I don't think so.

- Quick wit, sharp-edged sense of humor.

Yes.

- Acquisitive, and very tight with the purse-strings.

He is somewhat acquisitive, but very loose with the purse-strings, so to speak.

- Likes Tradition. May return to a structured religious practice even after a brief sabbatical, say as a rebellious college student.

Not sure. He did go a few Christmas's without giving presents, so he may not need it.

- Uber-responsible, care-taking (in concrete ways).

Not particularly, although he does care for his loved ones.

- Values stability, home and hearth, family values, etc.

Yes.

 

["?"]

- He's a generous, giving person, but unscrupulous people will exploit this
- He has a lot of self-confidence
- He lives for the moment
- He can be insensitive, yet he seems to dislike conflict
- He will listen to your opinion and constructive criticism, but he often refuses to apply it in favour of his own (sometimes erroneous) judgements
- He's impulsive
- He's VERY poor with money
- He's a rational person, but gets emotional when upset
- He can be controlling at times
- He tends to delay things
- He can back up his actions with words, but he doesn't do this consistently
- He's a competent office manager
- He rarely looks back upon the past and never thinks about the future
- He sees the good in people
- He is a person of morality - but he puts too much faith in other people's ethical standards
- He tends to show his love to his children by doing things for them, rather than through expression
- He can be judgemental of others
- He often strikes me as a laid-back person
- Does things without really expecting much in return
- He rarely asks others for help
- He's very good with his hands
- He strikes me as being a practical person, having known him for a long time
- Enjoys alcohol

With exception of wanting company when driving around, they all sound like me, but they could sound like some INTJs that I know or ENTPs. As alway I have to ask how well do you know this person? Time and time again people make futile attempts to put a MB label on others from superficial encounters. Unless you live with a person, all you see are personnas. I won't make the call as to whether the person is any particular type, except that he sounds like a strong 9w8 based on the enneagram, which since 9 correlates with perceiving types generally in MBTI, I would agree with most that your description sounds ISTP.

 

[DaRick]

With exception of wanting company when driving around, they all sound like me, but they could sound like some INTJs that I know or ENTPs. As alway I have to ask how well do you know this person? Time and time again people make futile attempts to put a MB label on others from superficial encounters. Unless you live with a person, all you see are personnas. I want make the call as to whether the person is any particular type, except that he sounds like a strong 9w8 based on the enneagram, which since 9 correlates with perceiving types generally in MBTI, I would agree with most that your description sounds ISTP.

Well, I have known him for several years. I wouldn't ask for your opinions on someone that I only knew in, say, the workplace. I know, to an extent, what this guy is like at home. I don't quite know him like the back of my hand (I would never assume that I do of anybody), but I know him well enough to know what he's really like. What you see with him is more of less what you get - unlike N's. That's why I changed from an ISTJ to an INTJ in the first place.

 

["?"]

Then I would agree that based on your list (which I must admit is a good observation) he is most likely ISTP/E9. I would be interested to know if other people who know you both superficially, consider either of you extraverted types.

 

[DaRick]

Then I would agree that based on your list (which I must admit is a good observation) he is most likely ISTP/E9. I would be interested to know if other people who know you both superficially, consider either of you extraverted types.

Nobody considers me to be an extravert. My I is easily my strongest letter. However, many people do consider me to be an ISTJ outside, because I turn into a jaded shell and don't reveal the full spectrum of my personality. I'm not so sure about him.

 

["?"]

The best descriptions that I know are at bestfittype.com. I think on any given day, the ISTJ may fit me equally as the ISTP type.

 

[alcea rosea]

I see ISTP's more physical in a sense than ISTJ's. I don't know if it is true or not.

 

["?"]

I see ISTP's more physical in a sense than ISTJ's. I don't know if it is true or not.

I am not sure how you mean physical, however if you are alluding to the Se vs Te, they can both be physical as all extraverted functions can. Se may appear more haphazard to those preferring Te and Fe I would think. But as Joe Butts puts it in his typelogic description of ISTP:

unlike most ESPs they do not present an impression of constant activity. On the contrary, they lie dormant, saving their energy until a project or an adventure worthy of their time comes along--and then they launch themselves at it. The apparently frenzied state that inevitably ensues is actually much more controlled than it appears--ISTPs always seem to know what they're doing when it comes to physical or mechanical obstacles--but the whole chain of events presents a confusing and paradoxical picture to an outsider.

.