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  1. #31
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaRick View Post
    Well, there is this...uh...friend of mine. He insists that he's an ISTJ, but I think that he's more of an ISTP. To break the deadlock, I'll ask you guys your opinions. He's not such a big fan of online tests; besides, I hardly ever get him to do what I want him to when I ask. I'll give you a few examples:

    - He's a generous, giving person, but unscrupulous people will exploit this
    - He has a lot of self-confidence
    - He lives for the moment
    - He can be insensitive, yet he seems to dislike conflict
    - He will listen to your opinion and constructive criticism, but he often refuses to apply it in favour of his own (sometimes erroneous) judgements
    - He's impulsive
    - He's VERY poor with money
    - He's a rational person, but gets emotional when upset
    - He can be controlling at times
    - He tends to delay things
    - He can back up his actions with words, but he doesn't do this consistently
    - He likes company when he goes driving or on his various voyages
    - He's a competent office manager
    - He rarely looks back upon the past and never thinks about the future
    - He sees the good in people
    - He is a person of morality - but he puts too much faith in other people's ethical standards
    - He tends to show his love to his children by doing things for them, rather than through expression
    - He can be judgemental of others
    - He often strikes me as a laid-back person
    - Does things without really expecting much in return
    - He rarely asks others for help
    - He's very good with his hands
    - He strikes me as being a practical person, having known him for a long time
    - Enjoys alcohol
    ISTP to the core.

  2. #32
    homo-loving sonovagun anii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaRick View Post
    Well, there is this...uh...friend of mine. He insists that he's an ISTJ, but I think that he's more of an ISTP. To break the deadlock, I'll ask you guys your opinions. He's not such a big fan of online tests; besides, I hardly ever get him to do what I want him to when I ask. I'll give you a few examples:

    - He's a generous, giving person, but unscrupulous people will exploit this
    - He has a lot of self-confidence
    - He lives for the moment
    - He can be insensitive, yet he seems to dislike conflict
    - He will listen to your opinion and constructive criticism, but he often refuses to apply it in favour of his own (sometimes erroneous) judgements
    - He's impulsive
    - He's VERY poor with money
    - He's a rational person, but gets emotional when upset
    - He can be controlling at times
    - He tends to delay things
    - He can back up his actions with words, but he doesn't do this consistently
    - He likes company when he goes driving or on his various voyages
    - He's a competent office manager
    - He rarely looks back upon the past and never thinks about the future
    - He sees the good in people
    - He is a person of morality - but he puts too much faith in other people's ethical standards
    - He tends to show his love to his children by doing things for them, rather than through expression
    - He can be judgemental of others
    - He often strikes me as a laid-back person
    - Does things without really expecting much in return
    - He rarely asks others for help
    - He's very good with his hands
    - He strikes me as being a practical person, having known him for a long time
    - Enjoys alcohol
    You have partially described my ISTP brother/father.

    - Does your friend not only get emotional when upset but it verges on irrational, almost hysterical and aggressive?
    - Is he often late, and procrastinates on projects but refuses to relinquish control of them? (Say by paying an outside vendor to finish the job.)
    - Is he a connoisseur of pleasures - drink, sensation, etc? Does he seem to take personally a refusal to partake of his vices?
    - Does he actively, and contemptuously, flout authority?
    - Does he love to drive, and drive fast? Does he wear those silly leather racing gloves?
    - Does he resist any attempts to control his behavior.
    - Does he use lying almost as an expedient communication tool?
    - Do you often feel he is withholding information?
    - Does he only comply with treatment, advice, etc. after there has been a clear order to do so, with harsh consequences if he fails to do so? Does he do so grudgingly, with much complaining?
    - Has he been known to cheat in relationships, and then blame his partner for "driving him to it"?
    - Is he uncomfortable with emotions, and emotional displays to the point of seeming insensitive or even cruel. If a woman is crying, does he handle it by saying "stop crying" rather than attempting to comfort her?
    - Does he play sports, but takes it way too seriously?
    - Is he egalitarian, live-and-let-live?
    - Does he present as the "strong, silent type" ala Dirty Harry?
    - Does he prefer casual and sometimes sloppy to tucked in and dressed up?

    I'm aware that bias might be in my clues... but that is my experience. To possibly contrast with ISTJ, I have another brother who is this type. My brothers are very different, excepting their mutual love of beer and of staring at American football on TV for hours on end.

    Hints someone might be ISTJ:
    - They are *Good* with money, have been all their lives. May even work in a financial field.
    - Likes to collect things; has a stamp collection or similar.
    - Obsessively neat. Somewhat of a control freak about it. (My brother's wife calls him "the male Martha Stewart."
    - Very rigid in general outlook; can make one feel inadequate or not quite good enough in their presence.
    - Quick wit, sharp-edged sense of humor.
    - Acquisitive, and very tight with the purse-strings.
    - Likes Tradition. May return to a structured religious practice even after a brief sabbatical, say as a rebellious college student.
    - Uber-responsible, care-taking (in concrete ways).
    - Values stability, home and hearth, family values, etc.

    The areas of conflict I've witnessed between the ISTP and ISTJ - this might help distinguish them further - is when the ISTJ perceives the ISTP as reckless, chaotic, and almost anarchistic. If this threatens the ISTJ's sense of order and especially his family domain, he has been quite harsh in setting limits. The ISTP, for his part, takes this surprisingly in stride, is not offended, and goes on his merry way.

    That's all I have.

  3. #33
    Senior Member DaRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Natrushka View Post
    But as the Eight Function test shows, not all the functions develop in the classic MBTI manner. Se is 'supposed' to be my 'worst' function, Fe is, however - and the jump between the two is huge.

    Not to sure about this, DaRick.

    Lenore Thomson on Fe

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ustful-fe.html

    Bottom line, it's hard to type someone third hand. It's hard enough first hand online. Oy.
    Fair enough. I dislike Lenore Thomson's definitions, anyway. They are so long-winded as to confound me. But even so, this guy's aggression under stress demonstrates a use of Fe to create conflict/anarchy and therefore oppose social norms, rather than adhering to customs, which would dictate that they shouldn't create conflict. That 'eight functions test' is somewhat strange anyway - my Fe and Fi were much lower than they should've been and my Ne was probably too high. My Se was my worst function though.

    The second group represents the shadow of the ISTP. (I know you know that. I'm just responding here for everyone else's sake.)

    I find it hard to believe that your friend is a successful manager. My ISTP husband is horrible at leading other people. He'd rather do it all himself to make sure it's done right. One of his faults is that he's not good at delegating authority. Though he can be lots of fun in a relaxed atmosphere, he can be condescending and arrogant when working with other people who are not "as good as" he is.
    Actually, I couldn't really remember what shadow was which - I quickly thought 'second'. Your selflessness is...uh...gratifying, but do remember that everybody has a different method of devising answers through variable thought processes, so we should probably respect that, as well.

    My friend is a manager due to the relative incompetence of the other staff in his office, not because he wants to be. That's the impression I get. Trust me, he's not a natural leader. The only group he really feels even slightly comfortable leading would probably be his family.

    - Does your friend not only get emotional when upset but it verges on irrational, almost hysterical and aggressive?
    I would say so, yes.
    - Is he often late, and procrastinates on projects but refuses to relinquish control of them? (Say by paying an outside vendor to finish the job.)
    He can occassionally be late to certain places, I believe, but not always for reasons he can control. He can procrastinate on projects (i.e - painting) and dislikes outside input unless he really finds it necessary.
    - Is he a connoisseur of pleasures - drink, sensation, etc? Does he seem to take personally a refusal to partake of his vices?
    He does like his alcohol, certainly. He does get somewhat irritated when other people tell him not to drink.
    - Does he actively, and contemptuously, flout authority?
    Well, he is politically incorrect, but he is still a law-abiding citizen.
    - Does he love to drive, and drive fast? Does he wear those silly leather racing gloves?
    He doesn't mind driving, but I don't know about driving fast.
    - Does he resist any attempts to control his behavior?
    Yes, but in a light-hearted way.
    - Does he use lying almost as an expedient communication tool?
    No - his morals and ethics are too well developed. He does occassionally use 'emotional blackmail', though.
    - Do you often feel he is withholding information?
    Not really. This is more something I tend to do.
    - Does he only comply with treatment, advice, etc. after there has been a clear order to do so, with harsh consequences if he fails to do so? Does he do so grudgingly, with much complaining?
    Yes, and still with much complaining.
    - Has he been known to cheat in relationships, and then blame his partner for "driving him to it"?
    No, but he has been acrimoniously divorced.
    - Is he uncomfortable with emotions, and emotional displays to the point of seeming insensitive or even cruel. If a woman is crying, does he handle it by saying "stop crying" rather than attempting to comfort her?
    I saw him once respond with shock when a woman was crying by just standing there in shock.
    - Does he play sports, but takes it way too seriously?
    Not sure.
    - Is he egalitarian, live-and-let-live?
    I actually don't know - he appears to beb though.
    - Does he present as the "strong, silent type" ala Dirty Harry?
    He can do.
    - Does he prefer casual and sometimes sloppy to tucked in and dressed up?
    Yes.

    Hints someone might be ISTJ:
    - They are *Good* with money, have been all their lives. May even work in a financial field.
    No, he's financially terrible. But he has worked in financial fields, to varying degrees of success.
    - Likes to collect things; has a stamp collection or similar.
    No.
    - Obsessively neat. Somewhat of a control freak about it. (My brother's wife calls him "the male Martha Stewart."
    NO.
    - Very rigid in general outlook; can make one feel inadequate or not quite good enough in their presence.
    I don't think so.
    - Quick wit, sharp-edged sense of humor.
    Yes.
    - Acquisitive, and very tight with the purse-strings.
    He is somewhat acquisitive, but very loose with the purse-strings, so to speak.
    - Likes Tradition. May return to a structured religious practice even after a brief sabbatical, say as a rebellious college student.
    Not sure. He did go a few Christmas's without giving presents, so he may not need it.
    - Uber-responsible, care-taking (in concrete ways).
    Not particularly, although he does care for his loved ones.
    - Values stability, home and hearth, family values, etc.
    Yes.
    MBTI: INFJ (I: 100% N:58% F: 58% J: 84%)
    Socionics: INFJ
    Enneagram: 4w5 sp/so/sx

  4. #34
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaRick View Post
    - He's a generous, giving person, but unscrupulous people will exploit this
    - He has a lot of self-confidence
    - He lives for the moment
    - He can be insensitive, yet he seems to dislike conflict
    - He will listen to your opinion and constructive criticism, but he often refuses to apply it in favour of his own (sometimes erroneous) judgements
    - He's impulsive
    - He's VERY poor with money
    - He's a rational person, but gets emotional when upset
    - He can be controlling at times
    - He tends to delay things
    - He can back up his actions with words, but he doesn't do this consistently
    - He's a competent office manager
    - He rarely looks back upon the past and never thinks about the future
    - He sees the good in people
    - He is a person of morality - but he puts too much faith in other people's ethical standards
    - He tends to show his love to his children by doing things for them, rather than through expression
    - He can be judgemental of others
    - He often strikes me as a laid-back person
    - Does things without really expecting much in return
    - He rarely asks others for help
    - He's very good with his hands
    - He strikes me as being a practical person, having known him for a long time
    - Enjoys alcohol
    With exception of wanting company when driving around, they all sound like me, but they could sound like some INTJs that I know or ENTPs. As alway I have to ask how well do you know this person? Time and time again people make futile attempts to put a MB label on others from superficial encounters. Unless you live with a person, all you see are personnas. I won't make the call as to whether the person is any particular type, except that he sounds like a strong 9w8 based on the enneagram, which since 9 correlates with perceiving types generally in MBTI, I would agree with most that your description sounds ISTP.
    Last edited by "?"; 12-16-2007 at 09:32 AM.

  5. #35
    Senior Member DaRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    With exception of wanting company when driving around, they all sound like me, but they could sound like some INTJs that I know or ENTPs. As alway I have to ask how well do you know this person? Time and time again people make futile attempts to put a MB label on others from superficial encounters. Unless you live with a person, all you see are personnas. I want make the call as to whether the person is any particular type, except that he sounds like a strong 9w8 based on the enneagram, which since 9 correlates with perceiving types generally in MBTI, I would agree with most that your description sounds ISTP.
    Well, I have known him for several years. I wouldn't ask for your opinions on someone that I only knew in, say, the workplace. I know, to an extent, what this guy is like at home. I don't quite know him like the back of my hand (I would never assume that I do of anybody), but I know him well enough to know what he's really like. What you see with him is more of less what you get - unlike N's. That's why I changed from an ISTJ to an INTJ in the first place.
    MBTI: INFJ (I: 100% N:58% F: 58% J: 84%)
    Socionics: INFJ
    Enneagram: 4w5 sp/so/sx

  6. #36
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Then I would agree that based on your list (which I must admit is a good observation) he is most likely ISTP/E9. I would be interested to know if other people who know you both superficially, consider either of you extraverted types.

  7. #37
    Senior Member DaRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by "?" View Post
    Then I would agree that based on your list (which I must admit is a good observation) he is most likely ISTP/E9. I would be interested to know if other people who know you both superficially, consider either of you extraverted types.
    Nobody considers me to be an extravert. My I is easily my strongest letter. However, many people do consider me to be an ISTJ outside, because I turn into a jaded shell and don't reveal the full spectrum of my personality. I'm not so sure about him.
    MBTI: INFJ (I: 100% N:58% F: 58% J: 84%)
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    Enneagram: 4w5 sp/so/sx

  8. #38
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    The best descriptions that I know are at bestfittype.com. I think on any given day, the ISTJ may fit me equally as the ISTP type.

  9. #39
    Senior Member alcea rosea's Avatar
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    I see ISTP's more physical in a sense than ISTJ's. I don't know if it is true or not.

  10. #40
    Senior Member "?"'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcearos View Post
    I see ISTP's more physical in a sense than ISTJ's. I don't know if it is true or not.
    I am not sure how you mean physical, however if you are alluding to the Se vs Te, they can both be physical as all extraverted functions can. Se may appear more haphazard to those preferring Te and Fe I would think. But as Joe Butts puts it in his typelogic description of ISTP:
    unlike most ESPs they do not present an impression of constant activity. On the contrary, they lie dormant, saving their energy until a project or an adventure worthy of their time comes along--and then they launch themselves at it. The apparently frenzied state that inevitably ensues is actually much more controlled than it appears--ISTPs always seem to know what they're doing when it comes to physical or mechanical obstacles--but the whole chain of events presents a confusing and paradoxical picture to an outsider.
    .

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