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  1. #61
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    What I meant was that I do not arbitrarily adhere to certain values.

    I consider the context, the intent, etc.

  2. #62
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Yeah but a substantial portion of INFPs fall into this category, and it's something I've noticed in the vast majority of INFPs on the forum, thus the argument.

    And aside from being emotionally invested in arguments yadda yadda, I still think that Fi in the dominant is a lot more willing to disclose personal information than Fi in the tertiary, especially when it's explicitly requested and the Fi-dom in question has no reason to not trust the audience. So I had some other basis, outside of the INFP generalization that i made.
    Really? In real life, I've found INFPs are protective of their personal values and feelings and tend to be over-sensitive to others ... they'd much rather have the other person talk about them, than them talk about themselves.

    Even here online, in personal e-mails, it's been that way too. Maybe the group forum setting is slightly different, I've seen more openness with some topics then.

    This whole thing is ironic to me, in regards to the discussion we had the other night where we both said we hated to deconstruct our type reads in order to explain them to others, since it was a more intuitive process for each of us.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #63
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    I didn't fit in at INFP.gc either, but does anyone ever fit in anywhere? I think it's an illusion.

    (Unless they do )

  4. #64
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Oh, and teslashock:

    In regard to not being "open" with you, I actually am pretty open (right?), but I don't like having to prove myself. I think that facts should speak for themselves, and am loath to defend a mere perspective.

  5. #65
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Really? In real life, I've found INFPs are protective of their personal values and feelings and tend to be over-sensitive to others ... they'd much rather have the other person talk about them, than them talk about themselves.

    Even here online, in personal e-mails, it's been that way too. Maybe the group forum setting is slightly different, I've seen more openness with some topics then.
    Yes, I think it might have something to do with the fact that this is an internet forum, so communication around here is vastly different than communication irl. Perhaps it's easier for introverts to share themselves through a more anonymous medium than it is for them to disclose that kind of information in person.

    I know two INFPs fairly well irl, and one is very private about her emotions, opinions, values, and beliefs (my mother) while the other often rambles on about them (my roommate and good friend). The former I believe is an enneagram 9w1, while the latter I believe is 5w4, so that probably has a lot to do with it.

    BlackCat often points out that a lot of the generalizations about INFPs are really just traits of INFP 4s (a common enneagram for INFPs), so the non-4s typically don't fall in with the kinds of generalizations we make. If disregard truly is an INFP, I somehow doubt she's a 4.

    This whole thing is ironic to me, in regards to the discussion we had the other night where we both said we hated to deconstruct our type reads in order to explain them to others, since it was a more intuitive process for each of us.
    Yeah, I don't like to get into serious arguments about type. If this turns into an argument where it's more about me or others trying to prove themselves right, then I'll quickly lose interest.

    Disregard seems to have a genuine inquiry, though, so for her sake, I wanted to offer up something more substantial than an intuitive hunch.

  6. #66
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    Could you perhaps give me an example of what knowing your values would be?

    Do you mean knowing through and through that "I value honesty." ?
    By personal values, I mean personal criteria by which you assign merit to things. In the case of Ji, these values do not typically change based on external context. The criteria is less subject to being molded by the beliefs/opinions of others or objective facts that you extrapolate from your environment (that would be more Fe or Te than Ji). The values come from within; you validate them yourself, rather than relying on external factors to validate them.

    So, for example, you may value honesty, sincerity, and tolerance of others above all else. You don't gauge the situation and determine if honesty, sincerity, and tolerance will result in the most social harmony (Fe) or objective productivity (Te); you adhere to these values because they are yours and apart of you, and no external factors can change that.

    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    What I meant was that I do not arbitrarily adhere to certain values.

    I consider the context, the intent, etc.
    I don't think that Ji means having "arbitrary" values. The values are usually justified; the justification just comes from within, rather than relying on external information.

    The fact that you consider the context/intent to determine what belief you adhere to is not very standard of Ji. That sounds a lot more like Ni coupled with some extroverted judging function.

    Ji-ers are a lot less likely to yield their internally-derived values to context. That's a form of not being true to oneself, which is definitively not a characteristic of introverted judgment.

  7. #67
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    By personal values, I mean personal criteria by which you assign merit to things. In the case of Ji, these values do not typically change based on external context. The criteria is less subject to being molded by the beliefs/opinions of others or objective facts that you extrapolate from your environment (that would be more Fe or Te than Ji). The values come from within; you validate them yourself, rather than relying on external factors to validate them.

    So, for example, you may value honesty, sincerity, and tolerance of others above all else. You don't gauge the situation and determine if honesty, sincerity, and tolerance will result in the most social harmony (Fe) or objective productivity (Te); you adhere to these values because they are yours and apart of you, and no external factors can change that.

    I don't think that Ji means having arbitrary values. The values are usually justified; the justification just comes from within, rather than relying on external information.

    The fact that you consider the context/intent to determine what belief you adhere to is not very standard of Ji. That sounds a lot more like Ni coupled with some extroverted judging function.

    Ji-ers are a lot less likely to yield their internally-derived values to context. That's a form of not being true to oneself, which definitively not introverted judgment.
    Well, I can honestly say that I would have to think if someone were to ask me what my values are.

    I don't like two-facedness, but that doesn't mean I won't like the person with two faces. I can still enjoy them.

  8. #68
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    Oh, and teslashock:

    In regard to not being "open" with you, I actually am pretty open (right?), but I don't like having to prove myself. I think that facts should speak for themselves, and am loath to defend a mere perspective.
    Well no, I don't think you are very open actually. You seem pretty honest and open-minded, but that's not necessarily open. When I say you aren't "open", I mean that you don't seem very willing to share or interested in sharing information about yourself. You seem to be honest in what little you do share, but you share very little.

    And as to your VM to me, you didn't offend me. I don't really understand where there was any room for me to take offense. I'm just a bit impersonal most of the time, and many people, here and irl, associate my impersonal style with hostility, but there really is none, I assure you. It would take blatant and substantial personal attacks to my ideas/values to truly offend me.

  9. #69
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Well no, I don't think you are very open actually. You seem pretty honest and open-minded, but that's not necessarily open. When I say you aren't "open", I mean that you don't seem very willing to share or interested in sharing information about yourself. You seem to be honest in what little you do share, but you share very little.

    And as to your VM to me, you didn't offend me. I don't really understand where there was any room for me to take offense. I'm just a bit impersonal much of the time, and many people associate my impersonal style with hostility, but there really is none, I assure you. It would take blatant and substantial personal attacks to my ideas/values to truly offend me.
    When you said this:

    "Hm, ok then.

    (resists further discussion --> argument on the matter)"

    I thought you were scoffing at my response of having case-by-case values.

    Nevermind then.

    ---

    Okay, I can see how I am not very open. I'm just afraid. People on the internet haven't been extremely kind when I was younger and more open on the internet.

  10. #70
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    When you said this:

    "Hm, ok then.

    (resists further discussion --> argument on the matter)"

    I thought you were scoffing at my response of having case-by-case values.

    Nevermind then.
    Oh, no not scoffing. I just foresaw this turning into an argument, and I wasn't very interested in arguing with you/others about it.

    The fact that you have "case-by-case values" isn't really something I'd scoff at, not to worry.

    Okay, I can see how I am not very open. I'm just afraid. People on the internet haven't been extremely kind when I was younger and more open on the internet.
    Hm, well the fact that you aren't open for this reason specifically kind of invalidates the evidence I originally stated for you being INTJ. I thought you were withholding because you were cautious/paranoid about people using personal information against you in some way.

    I think NPs in general can be pretty sensitive to criticism of their values. Ji doesn't mesh so well with much of society's standards, and the Ne adds a really quirky twist into the mix, so we face harsh criticism throughout a lot of our lives, particularly as we are growing up, and that can start to get a little painful for us some times.

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