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  1. #21
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    actually i guess you could separately define MBTI and jung, where MBTI is four independant oppositions and jung is cognitive function interactions.

    but if you define it that way, MBTI is a pretty crappy system.
    Evidently this is the direction later versions of MBTI have taken.

    I'm not a fan.

  2. #22
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    Sorry to interrupt, but could someone please steer me to some info on this: (I'm new to this and don't understand what is meant by 'P and J functions are extroverted or introverted)? Thanks!

    Urchin, you can't look at P/J on its own...that's the problem. P/J ONLY has to do with whether or not your perceiving and judging functions are extroverted or introverted.

  3. #23
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicia91 View Post
    Sorry to interrupt, but could someone please steer me to some info on this: (I'm new to this and don't understand what is meant by 'P and J functions are extroverted or introverted)? Thanks!
    J and P by itself are neither extraverted nor introverted. But when you look in specific types, they influence whether your dominant function is extraverted or introverted. That's not very clear... I'll try examples.

    e.g. If you're EP, your dominant function is a perceiving function. The P in MBTI indicates your preferred function when dealing with the external environment. (N/S for perceivers and T/F for judgers). So for extraverts, The P matches to your dominant function. However in the case of an introvert, IP... P is still indicating your prefer to use perceiving (N/S) in the external world... however because you're an introvert. Your dominant function is actually an introverted judging function. e.g. INTP -> Ti dominant. Looking at this in reverse... an IJ would actually have a dominant perceiving function even though they are technically Js. e.g. INTJ -> Ni dominant.

    So "an extraverted J" (as in a person/judger) would be Te or Fe... dominant person, while "an introverted J" would be Ni or Si dominant. On the flip side, "an extraverted P" (preceiver) would be Ne or Se dominant and "an introverted P" would be Ti or Fi dominant.

  4. #24
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicia91 View Post
    Sorry to interrupt, but could someone please steer me to some info on this: (I'm new to this and don't understand what is meant by 'P and J functions are extroverted or introverted)? Thanks!
    At the core of MBTI theory, we all have 8 functions that make up (maybe not exclusively) our mind/cognition.

    The two rational functions are T and F, and each have an inward (introverted) and outward (extroverted) direction to them. For example, Ti refers to the logical ordering of internal concepts (extremely rough paraphrasing!) and Te refers to the logical ordering of external concepts (ie: leadership, etc).

    The two irrational functions are N and S and they also have an intorverted and extroverted version.

    Rational functions are 'process' functions, or decision making functions. They aren't "rational" in the way we think of it - the definition is very specific. Irrational functions are about how we gather information to process. For example, Ne is geared towards seeing the big picture - pulling in tons of associated (and often unassociated) information. As an analogy, the forest when looking at a tree. Se, however, only pulls in the immediate information... a tree when looking at the forest. It can omit relevant ideas.


    The big question is - what functions do you use? MBTI created a framework to determine which functions they use. The logic works like this;


    1) Determine which rational and irrational functions you prefer (S or N, T or F).

    2) Determine if you prefer an introverted or extraverted rational/irrational function (this is measured in P/J). If you prefer P, you prefer Introverted rational and extroverted irrational

    3) Determine if your dominant function (rational or irrational) is introverted or extroverted (measured with E/I).

    So, for example;

    ISTP -> S + T functions preferred, P = Ti (introverted rational) + Se (extroverted irrational), I = Ti-Se (introverted function as dominant).

    ENFJ -> N + F, J = Fe + Si, E = Fe-Si

  5. #25
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    Oy - this all started when I was interested in which Harry Potter character I was most like! LOL It's complicated but I do understand what you are saying - thank you.

    Sorry to sidetrack! Now back to Urchin.

  6. #26
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The big question is - what functions do you use? MBTI created a framework to determine which functions they use. The logic works like this;


    1) Determine which rational and irrational functions you prefer (S or N, T or F).

    2) Determine if you prefer an introverted or extraverted rational/irrational function (this is measured in P/J). If you prefer P, you prefer Introverted rational and extroverted irrational

    3) Determine if your dominant function (rational or irrational) is introverted or extroverted (measured with E/I).

    So, for example;

    ISTP -> S + T functions preferred, P = Ti (introverted rational) + Se (extroverted irrational), I = Ti-Se (introverted function as dominant).

    ENFJ -> N + F, J = Fe + Si, E = Fe-Si
    pretty much right, except you can't do 1 before you do 2.

    it's really hard to compare (Fe + Fi) to (Te + Ti), and even if you did, the outcome isn't going to help you with type.

    oh and i think you meant ESFJ in your second example

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