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  1. #11
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    My 2 cents, for what it's worth:

    The difference between ISFP and ISTP is between dominant-fi and dominant-ti, and between inferior-te and inferior-fe. Here's my understanding of both dichotomies:

    Both Fi and Ti are about reductive thinking - finding a root cause and whittling down the understanding of something to what is considered its bare elements. Both dominant-Fi and dominant-Ti types love "clarifying" things, for themselves and others.

    • Fi is about emotional reduction - you naturally understand and empathize with root, emotional causes that you identify in people. You naturally like to immerse yourself in these emotions, sometimes to the detriment of your own responsibilities to others. When immature, these types might have trouble reconciling Inferior-Te - they want to take responsibility for things, but they might wave that by focusing on its worst aspects - the way that these arbitrary, external systems categorise and divide people, ignoring their emotional needs in the name of efficiency.

    • Ti is about impersonal reduction - you naturally understand the inner mechanics of things, and instinctively see the world in terms of systems. You like to immerse yourself in these systems, sometimes to the detriment of your own responsibilities to others. When immature, these types might have trouble reconciling Inferior-Fe - they want to involve themselves in the lives of others (and are likely to understand themselves in terms of how they relate to others), but they might wave that by focusing on its worst aspects - the way that groups ignore the truth for the sake of tribal relations, clamping down on individual thought and action because it offends the "stupid" sensibilities of others.


    Inferior-Te: "Individuals are so divided and discouraged, for such horrid impersonal reasons. I pay attention to how people feel, and that's more important than anything."
    Inferior-Fe: "People are so easily manipulated and shallow. I can see how things really work, I couldn't possibly play along. Isn't anyone able to think for themselves?"

    I think all IxxPs identify with these ideas (favouring the individual over the group), so if you're having trouble deciding, don't think of it in terms of which one you identify with the most (or indeed like the most) - instead, just try to observe your own thoughts and see which side you tend to land on.
    Last edited by VagrantFarce; 03-07-2010 at 06:16 PM.
    Hello

  2. #12
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    I've found most of the ISTPs I have encountered in life are VERY different from me. Maybe it's because I'm such a "strong F" but beyond the basic traits that all SPs share, I find myself not relating to ISTPs much at all. Now, on this forum, I have more I think, because this forum lends itself to discussion of things that normally wouldn't come up in a room of SPs in real life.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I've found most of the ISTPs I have encountered in life are VERY different from me. Maybe it's because I'm such a "strong F" but beyond the basic traits that all SPs share, I find myself not relating to ISTPs much at all. Now, on this forum, I have more I think, because this forum lends itself to discussion of things that normally wouldn't come up in a room of SPs in real life.
    I am just curious: How would you say the ISTPs you know are so very different from you? I have troubles identifying the differences between ISTPs and ISFPs in real life....

  4. #14
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    My 2 cents, for what it's worth:
    Fair amount to respond to, but I'm going to leave it to this one for now, because I have stuff to do and I spent way too much time sitting at the computer yesterday and my legs hurt and it's nice out.


    just try to observe your own thoughts and see which side you tend to land on.
    All right, this is difficult, but I will try...

    Ti seems more likely. I think that's what appeals to me about the MBTI- the system of it- and trying to understand how and why people behave (including myself) in a structural, mechanical way. I see a lot of beauty in systems, I derive a lot of pleasure from observing them, interacting with them. I would much, much rather do something like figure out how to make a mini skate ramp for tech decks for my son, based on a picture of the mass-produced one and the materials I have on hand- cardboard, cereal box, duct tape than engage with him on some sort of emotional, personal level. Well, that's actually how we engage. I suspect he's an ISTP, so that makes sense, I don't know.

    This is hard for me, I think partially due to Ti often being defined by INTPs, vs ISTPs. I think when Ti is combined with Se it manifests itself quite differently. I don't think it necessarily 'seems' logical, it's just a matter of doing something- like how I said about making the skate ramp for my son- I didn't draw out plans or calculate the proper angle or anything, I just did it. But it turned out perfectly. I read somewhere that Ti for ISTPs can seem more like instinct- it's very unconscious, it's what people often view as intuition- like just figuring out how to play guitar or whatever, I don't know.

    I absolutely have a tendency to prioritize my thoughts and my immersion in understanding things above my relationships. But I am more conscious of this than I have been the past and I work very hard not to do this.

    Extraverted feeling is a seriously weak spot for me. As I said, I've become more conscious of this though, and I'm working on it. I feel very vulnerable in this area, oscillating between complete indifference to others and extreme self -consciousness/ left-out, no one likes me, the group is against me/I am no one without you/paranoia sort of feelings. These feelings can either make me cut and run or make me very defensive/want to fight or make me feel very unlovable and worthless. And I hate it, because I don't want to give a shit what others think about me, but sometimes I feel like I have no control over it. When I am under its influence I feel like a teenage boy, and I am a 35 year old woman.

    And that's another thing, I have always felt very 'male', if that makes any sense. I often visualize myself as a man, identify with men, relate to them better- like I think of myself when I'm old and the immediate image I get is of this chill, mildly eccentric old dude. And I'm exceedingly heterosexual, attractive in all the ways females are supposed to be. It's weird, but that's how it is. Not sure if that's relevant or not...

    Fi- I know I think like that, sometimes. Same with the Te. I'll try to observe more, but like I said, I need to go live my life.

  5. #15
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halfjillhalfjack View Post
    I am just curious: How would you say the ISTPs you know are so very different from you? I have troubles identifying the differences between ISTPs and ISFPs in real life....
    The ISTPs I know best (including my little brother and my boss) don't seem to give a damn about people or animals or nature or anything like that. I don't mean that they are always unfriendly or don't ever ask how are you doing or stuff like that.

    What I mean is, I have what I can only describe as a depth of caring. I am very sympathetic, my emotions are always right at the surface or just below. I genuinely want the best for people and for pain and suffering to be minimized. I'm realistic about it I think (which separates me from many INFPs) and I am cynical, but I still CARE to do the best I can to help anyone that I get the chance to.

    The ISTPs I know, on the other hand, have a very "leave me alone and don't bother me with your crap" attitude about people. It doesn't mean they don't have friends or that they spend time being hostile towards people. They like people who do the same things they like doing and don't bother them with things or other problems. They operate on a "leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" kind of mentality, whereas I tend to operate on a "let me cheer you up and make your life more fun" kind of viewpoint. That's the best i can do in describing it I think. They are unsympathetic most of the time.

    In no way should anyone interpret this to mean I am saying my view is in any way superior to ISTPs. It's just different. And again, this is from my experience. Maybe I happen to know more of the more immature or unhealthy ISTPs. I dunno.
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  6. #16
    brainheart
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    I just don't feel like I can pigeonhole myself enough on this stuff. My interests and abilities are too varied; I pretty much test almost 50/50 on S/N, F/T. One thing's for certain: IXXP. I should just leave it at that. I mean, all I really need to know is that it helps me to get out and about and feed myself with new experiences to help me grow and get out of my head, and that being creative is important for me. This is information which can be gleaned from the IXXP typing.

    The only downside is then I don't feel like I can really be involved on here. Hmm. Well, then I guess I would be getting out and about and feeding myself with new experiences that would help me grow and get out of my head.

    I hate computers, the MBTI, and forums. They seduce me, suck me in, and suck out my soul.

    (I sound really dramatic here when I really don't mean to be. You can just picture me tap-dancing while singing that if you'd like. It makes it far more cheerful and palatable.)

  7. #17
    brainheart
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    Just took this test: http://4np.net/ddli/


    I liked this test the most of any test I have ever taken (while taking it- it seemed really difficult to tweak your answers to guarantee a result you want). And I got...

    Extraversion (E): 13 47 I) Introversion
    Sensing (S): 16 48 N) iNtuition
    Thinking (T): 37 32 F) Feeling
    Judging (J): 5 70 P) Perceiving
    You scored as an INTP.
    __________________

  8. #18
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    The ISTPs I know best (including my little brother and my boss) don't seem to give a damn about people or animals or nature or anything like that. I don't mean that they are always unfriendly or don't ever ask how are you doing or stuff like that.

    What I mean is, I have what I can only describe as a depth of caring. I am very sympathetic, my emotions are always right at the surface or just below. I genuinely want the best for people and for pain and suffering to be minimized. I'm realistic about it I think (which separates me from many INFPs) and I am cynical, but I still CARE to do the best I can to help anyone that I get the chance to.

    The ISTPs I know, on the other hand, have a very "leave me alone and don't bother me with your crap" attitude about people. It doesn't mean they don't have friends or that they spend time being hostile towards people. They like people who do the same things they like doing and don't bother them with things or other problems. They operate on a "leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" kind of mentality, whereas I tend to operate on a "let me cheer you up and make your life more fun" kind of viewpoint. That's the best i can do in describing it I think. They are unsympathetic most of the time.

    In no way should anyone interpret this to mean I am saying my view is in any way superior to ISTPs. It's just different. And again, this is from my experience. Maybe I happen to know more of the more immature or unhealthy ISTPs. I dunno.
    That would be the Interaction Style, rather than the cognitive functions. ST's are directive or "task" (rather than "people")-focused, so even with the inferior Fe, they will still not want to be bothered with people as much as an ISF or INP. IST is the classic "Melancholic", and tend to be loners, socially.

    @brainheart: the the thing about being male sounds like the Animus, which is associated with the inferior function. So you could look into that and see if this "male" complex is involved with the things of Te or Fe. That would be another clue.
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  9. #19
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    @brainheart: the the thing about being male sounds like the Animus, which is associated with the inferior function. So you could look into that and see if this "male" complex is involved with the things of Te or Fe. That would be another clue.
    "The anima and animus in Carl Jung's school of analytical psychology, are the two primary anthropomorphic archetypes of the unconscious mind, as opposed to both the theriomorphic and 'inferior'-function of the shadow archetypes, as well as the abstract symbol sets that formulate the archetype of the Self. The anima and animus are described by Jung as elements of his theory of the collective unconscious, a domain of the unconscious that transcends the personal psyche. In the unconscious of the male, it finds expression as a feminine inner personality: anima; equivalently, in the unconscious of the female, it is expressed as a masculine inner personality: animus.
    It can be identified as the totality of the unconscious feminine psychological qualities that a male possesses; or the masculine ones possessed by the female. The anima is an archetype of the collective unconscious and not an aggregate of a man's mother, sisters, aunts, and teachers though these aspects of the personal unconscious can 'contaminate' the archetypes.
    The anima is one of the most significant autonomous complexes of all. It manifests itself by appearing as figures in dreams as well as by influencing a man's interactions with women and his attitudes toward them, and vice versa for females and the animus. Jung said that confronting one's shadow self is an "apprentice-piece," while confronting one's anima is the masterpiece. Jung viewed the anima process as being one of the sources of creative ability."

    Okay, I would say you are correct about the animus, but it is far more as this quote suggests (actually exactly as this quote suggests... interesting!), most decidedly not an inferior function. I think Te and it's my dad; Fe is my mother-in-law.

    My 'animus' is more like: coupled with:

  10. #20
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfy View Post
    That seems a really interesting idea for a thread. Please do it.
    Done!

    Enneagram/MBTI overlap
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