Poll: Do ENTJs have a tendency to micromanage the work of others?

[Windigo]

First, I disagree with your statements about INTJs not as effective in leadership postions that requires initiative, adaptability, a nose for trends, and possibilities. I think in change situations, INTJs often find themselves in leadership positions. They know what do to when other people are confused, due to the clarity of their intuitive perceptions in the face of ambiguity, and how they are able to effectively exercise NiTe together. EDIT: I've mostly made my career on these situations, so perhaps it doesn't apply to this type of INTJ anyway.

When it comes down to ENTJs, I realize I'm generalizing and many may not hit the pattern, but I think what really bothers me the most is them turning their critique against people - that is judging people as unqualified, bad, not right fit, etc. and the speed with which they take action. They seem to seek to move bodies into positions where they can fit the right cog in the grand scheme. If there is a cog they don't like, or thinks differently than them, they toss it way. Perhaps it is my reaction, but I don't react well to loud, controlling, leaders particularly well. I have also seen decisions arrived at on the disposition of people - "this one's no good, then fire them" when in fact is it is the ENTJ's inability to appreciate people who are different from himself. This one guy tears through people - fatal flaw because other than that, he's quite capapable. It is a bit of a hatchet man's approach to managing people in my experience, not caring about the people they impact in the least. Though this person can be very inspiring to a crowd, the problems are with those that work directly for him. He seems to lack some ability to listen, is intolerant of mistakes, has quite a large ego, doesn't stick up for his people at key times, and these things get him in trouble because he has no loyal team that lasts to follow him. He is not nearly as successful as he could be.I'm not saying all ENTJs all do this, but have seen it enough times to notice a pattern of similar behaviours in several others - jumping to conclusions, taking actions, without sufficient information or evidence to base it on. It always seems to be an ENTJ exhibiting these behaviors. I'm not sure why.

ENTJ Spaz Example as relayed by someone else last week. ENTJ screws up his need to approve his own paperwork. Screams at poor administrative assistant that they're not doing their job (they should do it for him) and then hangs up on him. Complains to the poor guys supervisor that he isn't doing his job and it impacts his assistant's performance review. Administrative assistant is in tears over unfair feedback. Yet, actually, the ENTJ was the only one who could approve his paperwork in the first place. He realizes this later of course after the fact but does not ever admit that he is wrong or go back to the person's supervisor to apologize. True story.

I totally agree with you that INTJs make great leaders when no one else wants to or has the expertise. I find them fair and capable, but usually reluctant leaders.

I ALWAYS try to give people a fair shake, and I admit when I am wrong . . . but perhaps that is because I was raised by an amazing man who taught me that a leader is only as good as his staff. He used to give me practical advise like, if your employees are complaining about their jobs, call a meeting have them vote on the worst job and then do it for them. They will be so thankful that there will be no complaining after that. He was always telling me to appreciate the talents of the little guy. I don't know what he was, but I know he was more of a feeler, acting the "hatchet" man sent him to the hospital for a triple bypass . . . . Maybe an ENFJ?

 

[Thalassa]

Holy shit, what did your mother do to you to warrant you having such a twisted obsession with ENTJs??

Simulated World inherently despises INFPs and ENTJs. Then he tries to lie about it, citing his equal disgust for all types. It's quite funny actually.

 

[simulatedworld]

I'm sorry, but yes it is. I don't think anyone has even claimed that N's are incapable of paying attention to detail. At least not in this thread.And your entire argument rests on ripping apart the fact that someone, somewhere said that the ENTIRE reason ENTJs don't tend to be micromanagers because they don't have an S in their name.

Straw. Man.



Anyone is capable of stressing over details OR the big picture, given the correct situation. Is that really even worth discussing?

Your poll is split almost evenly last I checked, and you can take my initial "yes" vote out of the equation because I changed my mind while I was writing my first response.

The anecdotal evidence combined with that fact that ENTJs are not theoretically wired to be the ultimate micromanagers in most general situations together imply that, yes, ENTJs can be micromanagers, but it simply can't be accepted as a broad generalization at this point. Theory is nothing if it doesn't hold up in experimentation.

Think of it this way: It's relative. ESTJs may be the most likely type to micromanage, but if we order all types from most to least likely to micromanage, ENTJ is going to be right near the top.

The only points you all have successfully made are:

A) That ESTJs are more likely to be micromanagers...which doesn't prevent ENTJs from also doing it frequently, and
B) That ENTJs prefer macromanagement to micromanagement...which in no way indicates that ENTJs don't also micromanage frequently. There's no reason for these two closely related behaviors to be mutually exclusive.

If I had to make a guess as to which types micromanage most often, it would probably look something like:

1) ESTJ
2) ESFJ
3) ENTJ
4) ENFJ
5) ISTJ

and so on and so forth. So no, ENTJ is not the #1 most likely type to micromanage, but will micromanage much more often than most other types.

Whether a type can be described as frequently showing a certain behavior depends on how often that type does it relative to other types, so if ENTJs micromanage more often than most types, then it can be fairly said that ENTJs have a habit of micromanaging.

If, on the other hand, we went to the bottom of the list, we would surely find ISFP. I'm sure that somewhere out there in the world there are ISFPs who micromanage, but since they do it so much less often than other types, it's far less reasonable to claim that micromanagement is a typical ISFP behavior.

My position does not claim that micromanaging is typical of ENTJs simply because it's possible for them to do it--I claim that ENTJs micromanage because they do it much more often than most other types. In order for any typological behavioral observation to be meaningful it needs to be compared to the relative frequency with which other types perform the same behavior.

Since all types breathe equally often, breathing cannot be ascribed to any particular type. However, since ENTJs micromanage more often than most other types, they can reasonably be said to have micromanaging tendencies.

Hell, ENTJs may even prefer macromanaging to micromanaging, but that doesn't mean they don't also micromanage! Why are micromanagement and macromanagement mutually exclusive? Did you guys consider that ENTJs might frequently do BOTH?

For another example, ENTPs don't nitpick logical consistency as often as INTPs. But just because I can find another type that's worse about it doesn't mean ENTPs don't also do it frequently. They certainly do, just with less frequency than INTPs.

Get it yet?

btw, not a straw man because people in thread actually did make precisely the argument I was shooting down about the letter N exempting them from getting stuck on small details.

You may not have made that argument, but my post wasn't addressed to you--it was addressed to the people who made the argument I was refuting.

A straw man argument is one that refutes an argument the opposition didn't actually make--but if you read the thread, more than one person actually DID make the argument that being an N type means they don't focus on small details. (JustHer claimed outright that micromanaging without Si is impossible!)

So when I responded to them, I was not making a straw man argument.


Can anyone offer an argument here other than "ENTJs don't micromanage because ESTJs do it more often" or "ENTJs don't micromanage because they like macromanaging better"? That seems to be all I'm hearing.

 

[entropie]

You have to choose a field of work that is specialized and complicated and you're the only one who can do it. If then someone comes into your office and tries to get you to be more efficient, you just shout: "How about you do the work yourself?"

Then they bail out, pissed and you can continue procrastination on typelogyforums.

 

[simulatedworld]

I don't see myself meddling in other peoples business, but sadly I do get perceived that way a LOT!

Uh huh...and why do you suppose that is? Is it because everyone else is just grossly misjudging ENTJs, or because you misjudge yourselves when you insist that you don't micromanage, despite the numerous complaints from others that you do?

Only if what the other person is doing really impacts my own life. Then yes, I micromanage, because people can't be trusted to make the right decision or follow up a lot of the time.

Indeed. Te doms often think most people around them are incompetent, so they figure that as the only competent person around, it's their duty to take over and control whatever parts of the project aren't working out.


P.S., here's a hint for everyone claiming "ENTJs don't micromanage often because they macromanage!"

I'm an ENTP. I prefer Ne to Ti.

And yet I somehow also use Ti frequently. How can this be? Because Ne and Ti aren't mutually exclusive. I can prefer one and still do the other quite often, just as ENTJs can prefer macromanagement but still micromanage quite frequently.

I don't understand what's so hard about this concept.

 

[Amargith]

Uh huh...and why do you suppose that is? Is it because everyone else is just grossly misjudging ENTJs, or because you misjudge yourselves when you insist that you don't micromanage, despite the numerous complaints from others that you do?

Because people are stuck in their own pov without being able to see the other person's motivation, imo and rather get upset than actually wonder where the communcation shortcircuited.Ime, an NTJ tends to step in when they feel the process isn't running smoothly, whatever that process would be. I often find myself very thankful to them for that, unless they have forgotten to judge the importance of said process.


I know NTJs that don't sweat the details and are in essence lazy about things not being effective as long as it doesnt matter. I also know one that stresses about everything and will constantly feel they ahve to step in, without looking at the big picture, without looking at whether it really is worth the effort. She does it, coz it irritates her to not have somethign under control, no matter how tiny and simply coz this is what she's good at. But most importantly, it is because she too is incapable of understanding someone elses pov. She cannot udnerstand how others cannot be so focused on efficiency and how that is not their priority or talent. She's going to give herself a heart attack one of these days though.

The second kind can be grating, but the first kind is definitely a relief to have around.

 

[simulatedworld]

Ime, an NTJ tends to step in when they feel the process isn't running smoothly, whatever that process would be. I often find myself very thankful to them for that, unless they have forgotten to judge the importance of said process.

She does it, coz it irritates her to not have somethign under control, no matter how tiny and simply coz this is what she's good at.

= dominant Te.

Thanks for your input. Te > Ni in the ENTJ schema.

And yeah, you have a good point about everyone misunderstanding each other's motivations and all that (just so you don't think I missed the real point of your post.)

 

[sculpting]

When it comes down to ENTJs, I realize I'm generalizing and many may not hit the pattern, but I think what really bothers me the most is them turning their critique against people - that is judging people as unqualified, bad, not right fit, etc. and the speed with which they take action. They seem to seek to move bodies into positions where they can fit the right cog in the grand scheme. If there is a cog they don't like, or thinks differently than them, they toss it way. Perhaps it is my reaction, but I don't react well to loud, controlling, leaders particularly well. I have also seen decisions arrived at on the disposition of people - "this one's no good, then fire them" when in fact is it is the ENTJ's inability to appreciate people who are different from himself. This one guy tears through people - fatal flaw because other than that, he's quite capapable. It is a bit of a hatchet man's approach to managing people in my experience, not caring about the people they impact in the least. Though this person can be very inspiring to a crowd, the problems are with those that work directly for him. He seems to lack some ability to listen, is intolerant of mistakes, has quite a large ego, doesn't stick up for his people at key times, and these things get him in trouble because he has no loyal team that lasts to follow him. He is not nearly as successful as he could be.I'm not saying all ENTJs all do this, but have seen it enough times to notice a pattern of similar behaviours in several others - jumping to conclusions, taking actions, without sufficient information or evidence to base it on. It always seems to be an ENTJ exhibiting these behaviors. I'm not sure why.

This sounds correct from my observations. And yes INTJs can actually be much better than ENTJ in leadership as they dont tend to alienate people quite as badly. Although everyone is afraid of them.

My ENTJ loved his people, but at the end of the day they mostly hated him yet feared him as well yet respected him-which seems to be okay with men? WTF? ( I loved him!)

I noticed just the other day an interesting thing Te doms do. If they respect your competency they will have discussions with you. If they do not respect you or are unfamiliar with you they do the following if you chaalenge thier notion of what's correct:

1. Make a very loud, visible display
2. Rather than question the ideas, the issue, they question the competency of the person or the qualifications of the person. "You are not qualified to think about that or offer ideas" or "you are incompetent", not "your idea is flawed".

Te doms and auxs can both take time to "reprocess" but the IXTJs do so internally and will attack your idea. The EXTJs will do so externally and attack you if they do have some level of respect for you already.

The INTJs need about 2-3 days to reprocess as it seems impossible for them to ignore data, no matter how much they would like to.

The EXTJs will not take that time. Instead they launch an offensive rebuttle immediately and crush the other person, thus never fully considering the value of the data.

 

[JustHer]

Who is this "everyone" misjudging ENTJs, SW?

You are only one person, despite all the voices in your head.

Your poll clearly demonstrates that not only is there no actual obvious trend in people finding ENTJs to be micromanagers, but that a slight majority actually disagrees with you.

Why is it so difficult for you to just stop desperately hanging on to your argument despite all evidence against it?

 

[Jaguar]

Who is this "everyone" misjudging ENTJs, SW?

You are only one person, despite all the voices in your head.

Your poll clearly demonstrates that not only is there no actual obvious trend in people finding ENTJs to be micromanagers, but that a slight majority actually disagrees with you.

Why is it so difficult for you to just stop desperately hanging on to your argument despite all evidence against it?

I have to agree with that.

My style of managing was probably too loose.
But then I made damn good decisions about who I hired.
I have better things to do than baby sit people.

As far as his desperation when evidence to the contrary is presented, he does that all the time.
You should have seen him embarrassing himself calling someone INFJ.

It got so bad, someone could say something like: "I have a red pen."
Sim: "Oh! Oh! See! See! That's really Ni!"

Ni has nothing to do with a red pen, but Sim doesn't care.
He just makes shit up about people and has the audacity to call it "typing."

"I have a Jeep."

"See! See! That's Ni! You REALLY are INFJ!"

It's like watching someone on an acid trip talk about jungian functions.

 

[Amargith]

Sim, the fact that both NFPs and ENTJs react to you the same way...I dunno, shouldn't it give yo ua clue as to the fact that you might be missing something? They can't all be wrong, to use your own words against you (granted, it's interpreted and paraphrased and let's not nitpick, you know what i mean!). And the fact that you systematically get Te-walled every time you try to approach the subject, might also suggest that your particular way of going about it isn't really doing it. So...keep looking for the right method.

Finally, you've admitted on several occasions that INFPs and ENTJs annoy you. Do you honestly think that these feelings or these responses or these kneejerk reactions or whatever you wanna call it, do not influence your threads? Especially on those sensitive topics?

I'm not trying to piss you off, but I am trying to make you self-reflect a bit instead of looking to the outside world to get this analysis about people you apparently don't get and commendibly wanna get finished. I'd suggest mulling things over, and trying to step out of your own perspective, which, granted, is hard, but it will be the only way, imo, to find the answers you seek.

Just my two cents.

 

[BlueFlame]

Think of it this way: It's relative. ESTJs may be the most likely type to micromanage, but if we order all types from most to least likely to micromanage, ENTJ is going to be right near the top.

The only points you all have successfully made are:

A) That ESTJs are more likely to be micromanagers...which doesn't prevent ENTJs from also doing it frequently, and
B) That ENTJs prefer macromanagement to micromanagement...which in no way indicates that ENTJs don't also micromanage frequently. There's no reason for these two closely related behaviors to be mutually exclusive.

If I had to make a guess as to which types micromanage most often, it would probably look something like:

1) ESTJ
2) ESFJ
3) ENTJ
4) ENFJ
5) ISTJ

and so on and so forth. So no, ENTJ is not the #1 most likely type to micromanage, but will micromanage much more often than most other types.

Whether a type can be described as frequently showing a certain behavior depends on how often that type does it relative to other types, so if ENTJs micromanage more often than most types, then it can be fairly said that ENTJs have a habit of micromanaging.

If, on the other hand, we went to the bottom of the list, we would surely find ISFP. I'm sure that somewhere out there in the world there are ISFPs who micromanage, but since they do it so much less often than other types, it's far less reasonable to claim that micromanagement is a typical ISFP behavior.

My position does not claim that micromanaging is typical of ENTJs simply because it's possible for them to do it--I claim that ENTJs micromanage because they do it much more often than most other types. In order for any typological behavioral observation to be meaningful it needs to be compared to the relative frequency with which other types perform the same behavior.

Since all types breathe equally often, breathing cannot be ascribed to any particular type. However, since ENTJs micromanage more often than most other types, they can reasonably be said to have micromanaging tendencies.

Hell, ENTJs may even prefer macromanaging to micromanaging, but that doesn't mean they don't also micromanage! Why are micromanagement and macromanagement mutually exclusive? Did you guys consider that ENTJs might frequently do BOTH?

For another example, ENTPs don't nitpick logical consistency as often as INTPs. But just because I can find another type that's worse about it doesn't mean ENTPs don't also do it frequently. They certainly do, just with less frequency than INTPs.

Get it yet?

btw, not a straw man because people in thread actually did make precisely the argument I was shooting down about the letter N exempting them from getting stuck on small details.

You may not have made that argument, but my post wasn't addressed to you--it was addressed to the people who made the argument I was refuting.

A straw man argument is one that refutes an argument the opposition didn't actually make--but if you read the thread, more than one person actually DID make the argument that being an N type means they don't focus on small details. (JustHer claimed outright that micromanaging without Si is impossible!)

So when I responded to them, I was not making a straw man argument.


Can anyone offer an argument here other than "ENTJs don't micromanage because ESTJs do it more often" or "ENTJs don't micromanage because they like macromanaging better"? That seems to be all I'm hearing.

Why are you so intent on forcing others to change their perceptions? Yes, it's all relative, but each individual person has a particular threshold for every behavior out there. They will only start to label is as out of the ordinary or apply it as a generalization to each individual person (much less a group) once their personal thresholds have been met. This discussion and poll simply measures whether or not ENTJs tend to cross the general boundary from *normal* and relatively unnoticeable to noticeable enough to label. And the votes (which are hardly enough to be accurate, anyway) say, no, generally speaking, they do no t cross that particular boundary with a majority of people. It's only about type-relativity if you make it so and have the experience to back it up. If I've never met an ESTJ, I could find an ENTJ to be a macromanager without using an ESTJ as a gauge. If I started working under an ESTJ, my perception wouldn't change, except perhaps make the ESTJ look even more extreme in comparison. But if I found ENTJs to be micromanagers from the beginning, working under an ESTJ would probably make the ENTJ seem less overbearing. If I decided he wasn't a micromanager simply by comparison, it's because my threshold changed from experience. That's life as a human.

All the function talk is wonderful, but you're going the wrong way with it. Human sciences are about observing behavior and coming up with explanations for trends and deviations. You, on the other hand, are coming up with a theory and trying to use to it force a visible trend! Even if your poll showed a majority found ENTJs to be micromanagers, there's still the question of semantics and your intent to make what's in your head true in reality, regardless of actual results.
No, macro and micro are not mutually exclusive, but if we're speaking in general terms, and we have to be in this case, anyone who manages to be a micro AND macro manager often enough to receive the label is probably going to die of a heart attack before they turn 30. Some people prefer the forest, and others the trees. It's virtually impossible to see the bark of a particular tree AND the entire rain forest at the same time. If I spend most of my time in a helicopter above the amazon, people are going to label me as a macro. If I'm constantly on the ground collecting leaf samples, I'll be generally labeled as a micro.

Are you always so condescending? Or is it because you've been defending yourself all over the place lately?
Constructive debates could rather do without snide or patronizing remarks. Case in point...this entire debate (which was useless to begin with) has gone swirling down the toilet.

 

[FDG]

You have to choose a field of work that is specialized and complicated and you're the only one who can do it. If then someone comes into your office and tries to get you to be more efficient, you just shout: "How about you do the work yourself?"

Then they bail out, pissed and you can continue procrastination on typelogyforums.

LOL sounds great!

 

[simulatedworld]

Who is this "everyone" misjudging ENTJs, SW?

You are only one person, despite all the voices in your head.

Your poll clearly demonstrates that not only is there no actual obvious trend in people finding ENTJs to be micromanagers, but that a slight majority actually disagrees with you.

Why is it so difficult for you to just stop desperately hanging on to your argument despite all evidence against it?

Well, the "everyone" is the people Wendigo mentioned in her post when she said:

I don't see myself meddling in other peoples business, but sadly I do get perceived that way a LOT!

This is an admission from an ENTJ that she gets perceived as micromanaging a lot. This, along with the ~43% of poll respondents who said yes, suggests that I'm not the only person who gets that impression from them.

Maybe I (and the others who answered yes) have just met a crappy sample of ENTJs in real life. I've had several of them do this to really ridiculous lengths in work-related situations where they didn't even have the authority to do it. I have one ENTJ friend who actually micromanages the conditions under which guests are allowed to use his bathroom. I still like the guy, but it gets pretty silly sometimes.

So I'll have to admit that, according to public perception, most people apparently don't perceive ENTJs as micromanaging.

But I have one more question: Why would almost as many people answer "yes" as "no"? If there was no basis for this claim at all, wouldn't the response have been overwhelmingly negative instead of only a slight majority disagreeing?

Are you always so condescending? Or is it because you've been defending yourself all over the place lately?
Constructive debates could rather do without snide or patronizing remarks. Case in point...this entire debate (which was useless to begin with) has gone swirling down the toilet.

Okay, I have to concede that I've met an unusual sample of ENTJs in my personal experience then.

I don't really see how being both a macro and micromanager would result in a heart attack by 30, but...I guess that particular topic isn't going anywhere.

Anyway I'm frequently pretty condescending on internet forums, yes. I like getting people to argue about trivial shit.

Sim, the fact that both NFPs and ENTJs react to you the same way...I dunno, shouldn't it give yo ua clue as to the fact that you might be missing something? They can't all be wrong, to use your own words against you (granted, it's interpreted and paraphrased and let's not nitpick, you know what i mean!). And the fact that you systematically get Te-walled every time you try to approach the subject, might also suggest that your particular way of going about it isn't really doing it. So...keep looking for the right method.

NFPs and ENTJs react to me that way because I'm attacking their types so it's hard not to take it personally. I imagine ISTPs would react similarly if I complained about them.

In any event I did learn something from this thread, and that's that I've met an unusually micromanaging sample of ENTJs in my experience. That's good, because it suggests I'll probably get along better with ones I meet in the future than the ones I've met in the past.

Finally, you've admitted on several occasions that INFPs and ENTJs annoy you. Do you honestly think that these feelings or these responses or these kneejerk reactions or whatever you wanna call it, do not influence your threads? Especially on those sensitive topics?

Well of course that has an influence. The fact that most of the ENTJs I've met have been so controlling over trivial issues is the main reason I generally dislike them. I still have a couple of ENTJ friends, but not many because most of them thus far have just really rubbed me the wrong way.

That's why I made the poll...to see if my observations were shared by others. Apparently some people feel the same way about ENTJs that I do, but not most. So I can conclude that I've probably met an unusually unhealthy sample of ENTJs.

Of course, there's also the fact (which I have pointed out several times) that ENTPs are among the types most resentful of being controlled or forced into things, so yes, there's certainly a personal investment on my part here. It's probable that my type is more sensitive to perceived attempts to control us than most, which would create natural friction with Te doms (who are frequently seen as controlling and overbearing.)

I'm not trying to piss you off, but I am trying to make you self-reflect a bit instead of looking to the outside world to get this analysis about people you apparently don't get and commendibly wanna get finished. I'd suggest mulling things over, and trying to step out of your own perspective, which, granted, is hard, but it will be the only way, imo, to find the answers you seek.

Just my two cents.

Well, if my experience with ENTJs has been limited enough that I've gotten the wrong idea about them, isn't looking to the outside world the natural next step? Like, "I've noticed this trend in my experiences; does anyone else see it?" Since most people apparently don't see it, I can conclude that the data set I'm working with (ENTJs I've met) probably contains an unusually high number of micromanagers that doesn't reflect the overall ENTJ population. The whole point of the poll was to collect more information.

And apparently a significant number of people do see it the way I do, but less than a majority. I think if my claim were totally unfounded, the poll results would have been highly skewed toward "No", so from this I can infer that some ENTJs do habitually micromanage, but probably not most.

Looking back on it, I probably would have had a better point if I'd used a more applicable wording. If I'd said, "Do ENTJs have a tendency to be overbearing and controlling?", I'd probably have gotten a lot more "yes" answers. I guess "micromanaging" is just the wrong word for the point I was trying to make.

 

[BlueFlame]

Okay, I have to concede that I've met an unusual sample of ENTJs in my personal experience then.

I don't really see how being both a macro and micromanager would result in a heart attack by 30, but...I guess that particular topic isn't going anywhere.

I can imagine forming a plan to save all the rainforests in the world. Breaking it down into multiple goals and tasks and delegating people to research the needs of a particular species in a particular area, and people to execute those needs, raise funds, buy supplies, etc.

What I can't imagine is personally overseeing every minute detail for every area and every species all the way down to hand-feeding the Toucans. You're right...anyone can be both, but not everyone can do it often to get the labels of both, and I can't imagine the stress that person would be under being the ultimate control freak through most of their lives.

Anyway I'm frequently pretty condescending on internet forums, yes. I like getting people to argue about trivial shit.

You don't think being a pretentious know-it-all is enough to inspire inane arguments? Condescension just seems like overkill.
(I jest, I jest...)

Anyway I, personally, am not saying you're wrong or right. Just that my personal experience hasn't led me to believe it, and your method of finding the answer sucked.

That is all.

 

[simulatedworld]

I can imagine forming a plan to save all the rainforests in the world. Breaking it down into multiple goals and tasks and delegating people to research the needs of a particular species in a particular area, and people to execute those needs, raise funds, buy supplies, etc.

Sounds like something an ENFJ would be more likely to tackle...but you can see how this sort of task would require both macro and micromanagement, right?

What I can't imagine is personally overseeing every minute detail for every area and every species all the way down to hand-feeding the Toucans. You're right...anyone can be both, but not everyone can do it often to get the labels of both, and I can't imagine the stress that person would be under being the ultimate control freak through most of their lives.

You don't have to micromanage every single piece of the project to be micromanaging. All you'd have to do is pick out someone you think is doing a bad job and nitpick the details of his approach.

You don't think being a pretentious know-it-all is enough to inspire inane arguments? Condescension just seems like overkill.
And it turns the focus from the trivial shit to, well, you. Or is that your intent, eh?

If my tone causes you to shift focus from the topic at hand to whining about my personal style, then I honestly don't really want to talk to you anyway. It's my way of weeding out people that are more interested in complaining about personal courtesy on internet forums than in actually debating whatever topic I want to debate.

The cool thing about arguing with people who don't care about that is that you can have little condescension battles...seeing who can come up with the sharpest counter-burn is an art form. Case in point: Me and Jaguar. I really don't hate the guy at all. I actually think he's pretty smart. We're both just really competitive and the bickering is a game.

I've noticed this approach seems totally bizarre and alien to a lot of F types. You guys must think NTs all hate each other. Sometimes you have to inflame people a little to get them to take off the false politeness mask and tell you how they really feel.

Anyway I, personally, am not saying you're wrong or right. Just that my personal experience hasn't led me to believe it, and your method of finding the answer sucked.

That is all.

Well, I found enough information to suggest that my experiences are not representative of most ENTJs, so I had to adjust my position on this. See? I learned something. The method worked.

I want people to be totally honest and blunt about what they think. Asking politely doesn't generate the kind of atmosphere where people feel totally free to say whatever is on their minds...it just doesn't generate very interesting responses.

 

[Jaguar]

This is an admission from an ENTJ that she gets perceived as micromanaging a lot.

An alleged ENTJ with an alleged Socionics type of ENTp.

I've had several of them do this to really ridiculous lengths in work-related situations where they didn't even have the authority to do it. I have one ENTJ friend who actually micromanages the conditions under which guests are allowed to use his bathroom.

The above scenario clearly illustrates someone who is interested in nothing more than enforcing a superficial policy.
Enforcing and/or monitoring policy is not ENTJ's modus operandi.

ENTJ has a visionary goal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to reach.

This is just one more example of why you have no business typing people.
Your posts continually demonstrate incompetence.

 

[simulatedworld]

An alleged ENTJ with an alleged Socionics type of ENTp.

I haven't read enough of her posts to have a real opinion on her type; I just know that she self-identifies as ENTJ.

I don't know that much about Socionics either, but I hear the types don't always line up perfectly with other systems...so one could theoretically be an MBTI ENTJ and also a Socionics ENTp.

The above scenario clearly illustrates someone who is interested in nothing more than enforcing a superficial policy.
Enforcing and/or monitoring policy is not ENTJ's modus operandi.
ENTJ has a visionary goal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to reach.

It may not be your modus operandi. Unfortunately a lot of ENTJs are dumber than you.

This is just one more example of why you have no business typing people.
Your posts continually demonstrate incompetence.

I wish it were the case that all ENTJs have a visionary goal to reach. I expect that probably is true of the more intelligent and well-rounded ones...ideally it would be true for all ENTJs, but unfortunately it's not even close.

I'm sure it's annoying to share a type label with them, but some ENTJs really are interested primarily in controlling others and enforcing superficial policy in order to feel powerful. Every type runs the gamut from extraordinary to pathetic.

 

[BlueFlame]

Sounds like something an ENFJ would be more likely to tackle...but you can see how this sort of task would require, both macro and micromanagement, right?

I could care less about the rainforest, SW. I'm keeping with the *tree* theme! Where's your vision?
And yes, it would require both, which means that anyone who undertakes something large that they care about needs to be able to micro and macromanage to some extent.

You don't have to micromanage every single piece of the project to be micromanaging. All you'd have to do is pick out someone you think is doing a bad job and nitpick the details of his approach.

Fine. So BlueFlame Rainforest Corp has 8,000 employees.
I pick out two people to micromanage.
You take a poll like this.
Maybe 40 people would vote *yes* if I assume that those two people complained to the 20 people they associate with at work.

Yes: 40
No: 7,960

Which goes back to my point of methods.

If my tone causes you to shift focus from the topic at hand to whining about my personal style, then I honestly don't really want to talk to you anyway. It's my way of weeding out people that are more interested in complaining about personal courtesy on internet forums than in actually debating whatever topic I want to debate.

Whatever helps you sleep at night!

The cool thing about arguing with people who don't care about that is that you can have little condescension battles...seeing who can come up with the sharpest counter-burn is an art form.

You NTs and your odd view of fun...
Planning on robbing a little old lady to round off your enjoyment?

Case in point: Me and Jaguar. I really don't hate the guy at all. I actually think he's pretty smart. We're both just really competitive and the bickering is a game.

But does he like you? Does it matter?

Well, I found enough information to suggest that my experiences are not representative of most ENTJs, so I had to adjust my position on this. See? I learned something. The method worked.

Sure, any method is successful if you change the objective once it's completed. But that's normally frowned upon. Something having to with honesty and ethics...

 

[Jaguar]

I haven't read enough of her posts to have a real opinion on her type; I just know that she self-identifies as ENTJ.

As long as it serves your purpose, you allow others to "self-identify."
If it doesn't serve your purpose, you beat them over the head insisting their type is wrong.

I don't know that much about Socionics either, but I hear the types don't always line up perfectly with other systems...so one could theoretically be an MBTI ENTJ and also a Socionics ENTp.

In socionics, an ENTp (ILE) is still Ne-Ti.

It may not be your modus operandi. Unfortunately a lot of ENTJs are dumber than you.

Anyone who has nothing better to do in life than monitor bathroom usage, should be kicked to the curb for wasting valuable oxygen.
Having said that, let's get back to business.

The #1 temperament which correlates with making, enforcing, and/or overseeing policy is SJ.
That means even an idiotic policy involving bathroom usage.

Now, ask yourself what percentage of the population is allegedly ENTJ.
I don't know where you work, but something tells me a real ENTJ wouldn't be caught dead there.
Just a hunch.

I wish it were the case that all ENTJs have a visionary goal to reach.

Did it ever occur to you they are not ENTJ? Or is that just more than you can possibly imagine?

I expect that probably is true of the more intelligent and well-rounded ones...ideally it would be true for all ENTJs, but unfortunately it's not even close.

How do you know they are not SJ?

I'm sure it's annoying to share a type label with them, but some ENTJs really are interested primarily in controlling others and enforcing superficial policy in order to feel powerful.

Did it ever occur to you it could be an ESFJ, ensconced in minutiae?
I don't see how bathroom policy= power and control.
It's laughable.