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View Poll Results: Do ENTJs have a tendencies to micromanage the work of others?

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  • Yes. I see this happening often enough to consider it common ENTJ behavior.

    17 43.59%
  • No. It happens rarely enough that I would not consider it characteristic of ENTJs.

    22 56.41%
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  1. #91
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Sim, the fact that both NFPs and ENTJs react to you the same way...I dunno, shouldn't it give yo ua clue as to the fact that you might be missing something? They can't all be wrong, to use your own words against you (granted, it's interpreted and paraphrased and let's not nitpick, you know what i mean!). And the fact that you systematically get Te-walled every time you try to approach the subject, might also suggest that your particular way of going about it isn't really doing it. So...keep looking for the right method.

    Finally, you've admitted on several occasions that INFPs and ENTJs annoy you. Do you honestly think that these feelings or these responses or these kneejerk reactions or whatever you wanna call it, do not influence your threads? Especially on those sensitive topics?

    I'm not trying to piss you off, but I am trying to make you self-reflect a bit instead of looking to the outside world to get this analysis about people you apparently don't get and commendibly wanna get finished. I'd suggest mulling things over, and trying to step out of your own perspective, which, granted, is hard, but it will be the only way, imo, to find the answers you seek.

    Just my two cents.
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  2. #92
    Senior Member BlueFlame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Think of it this way: It's relative. ESTJs may be the most likely type to micromanage, but if we order all types from most to least likely to micromanage, ENTJ is going to be right near the top.

    The only points you all have successfully made are:

    A) That ESTJs are more likely to be micromanagers...which doesn't prevent ENTJs from also doing it frequently, and
    B) That ENTJs prefer macromanagement to micromanagement...which in no way indicates that ENTJs don't also micromanage frequently. There's no reason for these two closely related behaviors to be mutually exclusive.

    If I had to make a guess as to which types micromanage most often, it would probably look something like:

    1) ESTJ
    2) ESFJ
    3) ENTJ
    4) ENFJ
    5) ISTJ

    and so on and so forth. So no, ENTJ is not the #1 most likely type to micromanage, but will micromanage much more often than most other types.

    Whether a type can be described as frequently showing a certain behavior depends on how often that type does it relative to other types, so if ENTJs micromanage more often than most types, then it can be fairly said that ENTJs have a habit of micromanaging.

    If, on the other hand, we went to the bottom of the list, we would surely find ISFP. I'm sure that somewhere out there in the world there are ISFPs who micromanage, but since they do it so much less often than other types, it's far less reasonable to claim that micromanagement is a typical ISFP behavior.

    My position does not claim that micromanaging is typical of ENTJs simply because it's possible for them to do it--I claim that ENTJs micromanage because they do it much more often than most other types. In order for any typological behavioral observation to be meaningful it needs to be compared to the relative frequency with which other types perform the same behavior.

    Since all types breathe equally often, breathing cannot be ascribed to any particular type. However, since ENTJs micromanage more often than most other types, they can reasonably be said to have micromanaging tendencies.

    Hell, ENTJs may even prefer macromanaging to micromanaging, but that doesn't mean they don't also micromanage! Why are micromanagement and macromanagement mutually exclusive? Did you guys consider that ENTJs might frequently do BOTH?

    For another example, ENTPs don't nitpick logical consistency as often as INTPs. But just because I can find another type that's worse about it doesn't mean ENTPs don't also do it frequently. They certainly do, just with less frequency than INTPs.

    Get it yet?

    btw, not a straw man because people in thread actually did make precisely the argument I was shooting down about the letter N exempting them from getting stuck on small details.

    You may not have made that argument, but my post wasn't addressed to you--it was addressed to the people who made the argument I was refuting.

    A straw man argument is one that refutes an argument the opposition didn't actually make--but if you read the thread, more than one person actually DID make the argument that being an N type means they don't focus on small details. (JustHer claimed outright that micromanaging without Si is impossible!)

    So when I responded to them, I was not making a straw man argument.


    Can anyone offer an argument here other than "ENTJs don't micromanage because ESTJs do it more often" or "ENTJs don't micromanage because they like macromanaging better"? That seems to be all I'm hearing.
    Why are you so intent on forcing others to change their perceptions? Yes, it's all relative, but each individual person has a particular threshold for every behavior out there. They will only start to label is as out of the ordinary or apply it as a generalization to each individual person (much less a group) once their personal thresholds have been met. This discussion and poll simply measures whether or not ENTJs tend to cross the general boundary from *normal* and relatively unnoticeable to noticeable enough to label. And the votes (which are hardly enough to be accurate, anyway) say, no, generally speaking, they do no t cross that particular boundary with a majority of people. It's only about type-relativity if you make it so and have the experience to back it up. If I've never met an ESTJ, I could find an ENTJ to be a macromanager without using an ESTJ as a gauge. If I started working under an ESTJ, my perception wouldn't change, except perhaps make the ESTJ look even more extreme in comparison. But if I found ENTJs to be micromanagers from the beginning, working under an ESTJ would probably make the ENTJ seem less overbearing. If I decided he wasn't a micromanager simply by comparison, it's because my threshold changed from experience. That's life as a human.

    All the function talk is wonderful, but you're going the wrong way with it. Human sciences are about observing behavior and coming up with explanations for trends and deviations. You, on the other hand, are coming up with a theory and trying to use to it force a visible trend! Even if your poll showed a majority found ENTJs to be micromanagers, there's still the question of semantics and your intent to make what's in your head true in reality, regardless of actual results.
    No, macro and micro are not mutually exclusive, but if we're speaking in general terms, and we have to be in this case, anyone who manages to be a micro AND macro manager often enough to receive the label is probably going to die of a heart attack before they turn 30. Some people prefer the forest, and others the trees. It's virtually impossible to see the bark of a particular tree AND the entire rain forest at the same time. If I spend most of my time in a helicopter above the amazon, people are going to label me as a macro. If I'm constantly on the ground collecting leaf samples, I'll be generally labeled as a micro.

    Are you always so condescending? Or is it because you've been defending yourself all over the place lately?
    Constructive debates could rather do without snide or patronizing remarks. Case in point...this entire debate (which was useless to begin with) has gone swirling down the toilet.

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  3. #93
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    You have to choose a field of work that is specialized and complicated and you're the only one who can do it. If then someone comes into your office and tries to get you to be more efficient, you just shout: "How about you do the work yourself?"

    Then they bail out, pissed and you can continue procrastination on typelogyforums.
    LOL sounds great!
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #94
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JustHer View Post
    Who is this "everyone" misjudging ENTJs, SW?

    You are only one person, despite all the voices in your head.

    Your poll clearly demonstrates that not only is there no actual obvious trend in people finding ENTJs to be micromanagers, but that a slight majority actually disagrees with you.

    Why is it so difficult for you to just stop desperately hanging on to your argument despite all evidence against it?
    Well, the "everyone" is the people Wendigo mentioned in her post when she said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Windigo View Post
    I don't see myself meddling in other peoples business, but sadly I do get perceived that way a LOT!
    This is an admission from an ENTJ that she gets perceived as micromanaging a lot. This, along with the ~43% of poll respondents who said yes, suggests that I'm not the only person who gets that impression from them.

    Maybe I (and the others who answered yes) have just met a crappy sample of ENTJs in real life. I've had several of them do this to really ridiculous lengths in work-related situations where they didn't even have the authority to do it. I have one ENTJ friend who actually micromanages the conditions under which guests are allowed to use his bathroom. I still like the guy, but it gets pretty silly sometimes.

    So I'll have to admit that, according to public perception, most people apparently don't perceive ENTJs as micromanaging.

    But I have one more question: Why would almost as many people answer "yes" as "no"? If there was no basis for this claim at all, wouldn't the response have been overwhelmingly negative instead of only a slight majority disagreeing?


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFlame View Post
    Are you always so condescending? Or is it because you've been defending yourself all over the place lately?
    Constructive debates could rather do without snide or patronizing remarks. Case in point...this entire debate (which was useless to begin with) has gone swirling down the toilet.
    Okay, I have to concede that I've met an unusual sample of ENTJs in my personal experience then.

    I don't really see how being both a macro and micromanager would result in a heart attack by 30, but...I guess that particular topic isn't going anywhere.

    Anyway I'm frequently pretty condescending on internet forums, yes. I like getting people to argue about trivial shit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Sim, the fact that both NFPs and ENTJs react to you the same way...I dunno, shouldn't it give yo ua clue as to the fact that you might be missing something? They can't all be wrong, to use your own words against you (granted, it's interpreted and paraphrased and let's not nitpick, you know what i mean!). And the fact that you systematically get Te-walled every time you try to approach the subject, might also suggest that your particular way of going about it isn't really doing it. So...keep looking for the right method.
    NFPs and ENTJs react to me that way because I'm attacking their types so it's hard not to take it personally. I imagine ISTPs would react similarly if I complained about them.

    In any event I did learn something from this thread, and that's that I've met an unusually micromanaging sample of ENTJs in my experience. That's good, because it suggests I'll probably get along better with ones I meet in the future than the ones I've met in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Finally, you've admitted on several occasions that INFPs and ENTJs annoy you. Do you honestly think that these feelings or these responses or these kneejerk reactions or whatever you wanna call it, do not influence your threads? Especially on those sensitive topics?
    Well of course that has an influence. The fact that most of the ENTJs I've met have been so controlling over trivial issues is the main reason I generally dislike them. I still have a couple of ENTJ friends, but not many because most of them thus far have just really rubbed me the wrong way.

    That's why I made the poll...to see if my observations were shared by others. Apparently some people feel the same way about ENTJs that I do, but not most. So I can conclude that I've probably met an unusually unhealthy sample of ENTJs.

    Of course, there's also the fact (which I have pointed out several times) that ENTPs are among the types most resentful of being controlled or forced into things, so yes, there's certainly a personal investment on my part here. It's probable that my type is more sensitive to perceived attempts to control us than most, which would create natural friction with Te doms (who are frequently seen as controlling and overbearing.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I'm not trying to piss you off, but I am trying to make you self-reflect a bit instead of looking to the outside world to get this analysis about people you apparently don't get and commendibly wanna get finished. I'd suggest mulling things over, and trying to step out of your own perspective, which, granted, is hard, but it will be the only way, imo, to find the answers you seek.

    Just my two cents.
    Well, if my experience with ENTJs has been limited enough that I've gotten the wrong idea about them, isn't looking to the outside world the natural next step? Like, "I've noticed this trend in my experiences; does anyone else see it?" Since most people apparently don't see it, I can conclude that the data set I'm working with (ENTJs I've met) probably contains an unusually high number of micromanagers that doesn't reflect the overall ENTJ population. The whole point of the poll was to collect more information.

    And apparently a significant number of people do see it the way I do, but less than a majority. I think if my claim were totally unfounded, the poll results would have been highly skewed toward "No", so from this I can infer that some ENTJs do habitually micromanage, but probably not most.

    Looking back on it, I probably would have had a better point if I'd used a more applicable wording. If I'd said, "Do ENTJs have a tendency to be overbearing and controlling?", I'd probably have gotten a lot more "yes" answers. I guess "micromanaging" is just the wrong word for the point I was trying to make.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #95
    Senior Member BlueFlame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Okay, I have to concede that I've met an unusual sample of ENTJs in my personal experience then.


    I don't really see how being both a macro and micromanager would result in a heart attack by 30, but...I guess that particular topic isn't going anywhere.
    I can imagine forming a plan to save all the rainforests in the world. Breaking it down into multiple goals and tasks and delegating people to research the needs of a particular species in a particular area, and people to execute those needs, raise funds, buy supplies, etc.

    What I can't imagine is personally overseeing every minute detail for every area and every species all the way down to hand-feeding the Toucans. You're right...anyone can be both, but not everyone can do it often to get the labels of both, and I can't imagine the stress that person would be under being the ultimate control freak through most of their lives.


    Anyway I'm frequently pretty condescending on internet forums, yes. I like getting people to argue about trivial shit.
    You don't think being a pretentious know-it-all is enough to inspire inane arguments? Condescension just seems like overkill.
    (I jest, I jest...)

    Anyway I, personally, am not saying you're wrong or right. Just that my personal experience hasn't led me to believe it, and your method of finding the answer sucked.

    That is all.

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  6. #96
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFlame View Post
    I can imagine forming a plan to save all the rainforests in the world. Breaking it down into multiple goals and tasks and delegating people to research the needs of a particular species in a particular area, and people to execute those needs, raise funds, buy supplies, etc.
    Sounds like something an ENFJ would be more likely to tackle...but you can see how this sort of task would require both macro and micromanagement, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFlame View Post
    What I can't imagine is personally overseeing every minute detail for every area and every species all the way down to hand-feeding the Toucans. You're right...anyone can be both, but not everyone can do it often to get the labels of both, and I can't imagine the stress that person would be under being the ultimate control freak through most of their lives.
    You don't have to micromanage every single piece of the project to be micromanaging. All you'd have to do is pick out someone you think is doing a bad job and nitpick the details of his approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFlame View Post
    You don't think being a pretentious know-it-all is enough to inspire inane arguments? Condescension just seems like overkill.
    And it turns the focus from the trivial shit to, well, you. Or is that your intent, eh?
    If my tone causes you to shift focus from the topic at hand to whining about my personal style, then I honestly don't really want to talk to you anyway. It's my way of weeding out people that are more interested in complaining about personal courtesy on internet forums than in actually debating whatever topic I want to debate.

    The cool thing about arguing with people who don't care about that is that you can have little condescension battles...seeing who can come up with the sharpest counter-burn is an art form. Case in point: Me and Jaguar. I really don't hate the guy at all. I actually think he's pretty smart. We're both just really competitive and the bickering is a game.

    I've noticed this approach seems totally bizarre and alien to a lot of F types. You guys must think NTs all hate each other. Sometimes you have to inflame people a little to get them to take off the false politeness mask and tell you how they really feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueFlame View Post
    Anyway I, personally, am not saying you're wrong or right. Just that my personal experience hasn't led me to believe it, and your method of finding the answer sucked.

    That is all.
    Well, I found enough information to suggest that my experiences are not representative of most ENTJs, so I had to adjust my position on this. See? I learned something. The method worked.

    I want people to be totally honest and blunt about what they think. Asking politely doesn't generate the kind of atmosphere where people feel totally free to say whatever is on their minds...it just doesn't generate very interesting responses.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #97
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    This is an admission from an ENTJ that she gets perceived as micromanaging a lot.
    An alleged ENTJ with an alleged Socionics type of ENTp.

    I've had several of them do this to really ridiculous lengths in work-related situations where they didn't even have the authority to do it. I have one ENTJ friend who actually micromanages the conditions under which guests are allowed to use his bathroom.
    The above scenario clearly illustrates someone who is interested in nothing more than enforcing a superficial policy.
    Enforcing and/or monitoring policy is not ENTJ's modus operandi.

    ENTJ has a visionary goal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to reach.

    This is just one more example of why you have no business typing people.
    Your posts continually demonstrate incompetence.

  8. #98
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    An alleged ENTJ with an alleged Socionics type of ENTp.
    I haven't read enough of her posts to have a real opinion on her type; I just know that she self-identifies as ENTJ.

    I don't know that much about Socionics either, but I hear the types don't always line up perfectly with other systems...so one could theoretically be an MBTI ENTJ and also a Socionics ENTp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    The above scenario clearly illustrates someone who is interested in nothing more than enforcing a superficial policy.
    Enforcing and/or monitoring policy is not ENTJ's modus operandi.
    ENTJ has a visionary goal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to reach.
    It may not be your modus operandi. Unfortunately a lot of ENTJs are dumber than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    This is just one more example of why you have no business typing people.
    Your posts continually demonstrate incompetence.
    I wish it were the case that all ENTJs have a visionary goal to reach. I expect that probably is true of the more intelligent and well-rounded ones...ideally it would be true for all ENTJs, but unfortunately it's not even close.

    I'm sure it's annoying to share a type label with them, but some ENTJs really are interested primarily in controlling others and enforcing superficial policy in order to feel powerful. Every type runs the gamut from extraordinary to pathetic.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #99
    Senior Member BlueFlame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Sounds like something an ENFJ would be more likely to tackle...but you can see how this sort of task would require, both macro and micromanagement, right?
    I could care less about the rainforest, SW. I'm keeping with the *tree* theme! Where's your vision?
    And yes, it would require both, which means that anyone who undertakes something large that they care about needs to be able to micro and macromanage to some extent.

    You don't have to micromanage every single piece of the project to be micromanaging. All you'd have to do is pick out someone you think is doing a bad job and nitpick the details of his approach.
    Fine. So BlueFlame Rainforest Corp has 8,000 employees.
    I pick out two people to micromanage.
    You take a poll like this.
    Maybe 40 people would vote *yes* if I assume that those two people complained to the 20 people they associate with at work.

    Yes: 40
    No: 7,960

    Which goes back to my point of methods.



    If my tone causes you to shift focus from the topic at hand to whining about my personal style, then I honestly don't really want to talk to you anyway. It's my way of weeding out people that are more interested in complaining about personal courtesy on internet forums than in actually debating whatever topic I want to debate.

    Whatever helps you sleep at night!

    The cool thing about arguing with people who don't care about that is that you can have little condescension battles...seeing who can come up with the sharpest counter-burn is an art form.
    You NTs and your odd view of fun...
    Planning on robbing a little old lady to round off your enjoyment?

    Case in point: Me and Jaguar. I really don't hate the guy at all. I actually think he's pretty smart. We're both just really competitive and the bickering is a game.
    But does he like you? Does it matter?


    Well, I found enough information to suggest that my experiences are not representative of most ENTJs, so I had to adjust my position on this. See? I learned something. The method worked.
    Sure, any method is successful if you change the objective once it's completed. But that's normally frowned upon. Something having to with honesty and ethics...

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  10. #100
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I haven't read enough of her posts to have a real opinion on her type; I just know that she self-identifies as ENTJ.
    As long as it serves your purpose, you allow others to "self-identify."
    If it doesn't serve your purpose, you beat them over the head insisting their type is wrong.
    I don't know that much about Socionics either, but I hear the types don't always line up perfectly with other systems...so one could theoretically be an MBTI ENTJ and also a Socionics ENTp.
    In socionics, an ENTp (ILE) is still Ne-Ti.

    It may not be your modus operandi. Unfortunately a lot of ENTJs are dumber than you.
    Anyone who has nothing better to do in life than monitor bathroom usage, should be kicked to the curb for wasting valuable oxygen.
    Having said that, let's get back to business.

    The #1 temperament which correlates with making, enforcing, and/or overseeing policy is SJ.
    That means even an idiotic policy involving bathroom usage.

    Now, ask yourself what percentage of the population is allegedly ENTJ.
    I don't know where you work, but something tells me a real ENTJ wouldn't be caught dead there.
    Just a hunch.

    I wish it were the case that all ENTJs have a visionary goal to reach.
    Did it ever occur to you they are not ENTJ? Or is that just more than you can possibly imagine?

    I expect that probably is true of the more intelligent and well-rounded ones...ideally it would be true for all ENTJs, but unfortunately it's not even close.
    How do you know they are not SJ?
    I'm sure it's annoying to share a type label with them, but some ENTJs really are interested primarily in controlling others and enforcing superficial policy in order to feel powerful.
    Did it ever occur to you it could be an ESFJ, ensconced in minutiae?
    I don't see how bathroom policy= power and control.
    It's laughable.

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