Maybe I'm wrong about my type?

[cascadeco]

As for the creative piece, this is just my opinion, but I don't think you can rule out creativity from any of the types - maybe different types or inclinations of creativity, but just because the ESxJ descriptions don't mention anything about creativity, doesn't mean the ESxJ person is therefore NEVER creative. I just briefly glanced at an ISFJ description, and didn't see 'creative' listed for ISFJ either - but an ISFJ friend of mine definitely sees herself as creative and one of her favorite pasttimes is scrapbooking, and being creative in that way.

I think a lot of it too is that as you've gotten older, you have been branching out in your traits, or rather, some of your traits/tendencies may have 'mellowed out'. You've mentioned this yourself in a few of your posts!! I think most people (at least those who aim to grow as a person) tend to become more comfortable with all of the different functions as they age, so that it isn't so black and white, and might be more subtle.

From your descriptions of your childhood, you do sound a bit more E, but I also don't know how more extroverted ISTJ's/ISFJ's would act as children. I also get a lot more 'S' from you, and given the Ne/Ni cognitive function results being rather low in comparison to Se/Si, I think that speaks more towards S as well.

 

[Maverick]

Aren't ISFJ' supposed to be - very traditional (I don't think I am), not leaders (I'm more leader than follower), not confrontational (I'll confront BS when I notice it - easily), organized (I am great at organizing other people, and I LIKE it, unfortuntely I don't always follow my own advice).

I guess I was mostly doubting it because I love to lead, come up with new ideas, am very open-minded and most of the descriptions of ISFJ's make them seem like they are extremely 'service-oriented' (love to serve others, need to be needed, etc.) and I'm kind of neutral on that.

Thanks for the input FDG!

OK, from a completely intuitive standpoint I'd say that my experience of ISFJ's as an ENTJ is that there are many deep ressemblances.

My gf is a very clear ISFJ, moderate F, and we share many traits in common. Of course, not superficially. Because at first she seems reserved and shy. She can be quite bossy too, often took the lead in projects, is perfectionnistic, is not especially service oriented, likes giving advice, is not especially traditional (actually very tolerant and open-minded, just not interest in theory or imagining possibilities for their own sake), etc. She values "Extraverted Thinking" alot and enjoys using it or when she sees it in others. She will challenge authority and people who are unfair in a way that would scare most apparently assertive types.

However, importantly, she is a genuinely honest, principled and fair person. She is extremely trustworthy and straightforward. No mind games and respects people's boundaires. She takes no for an answer and no matter how much people dissapoint her, she remains fair and trustworthy. Incredibly mature person.

Now, let's get down to the facts and speak a language that I'm sure you'll understand: you test ISxJ, so you are an ISxJ. If the descriptions of ISTJ or ISFJ don't fit, it's because there's a problem with the descriptions or theory.

 

[proteanmix]

Alicia you are confronting the major problem with MBTI. You'll go read the ESJ descriptions and think, "Hmmm, I don't feel like I'm a docile mule who values security and tradition so much that if all that I held sacred hung in the balance I'd boldly form a human chain to impede the progress that would save it."

So then you begin to wonder if you're an S or an N. I noticed when intro thread you were very sure to point out that you are a "weak S." Why did you feel a need to say that? Many people here proudly brag about how strongly intuitive they are. The bad news is you're basically stuck as the type you came in with. People are going type you as an SJ because that's what you first identified with when you came in. Whatever type you are, it will show in your posting style. I don't know what type you are because I haven't seen enough of you to tell, from what I'm seeing you sound EJ, probably ESJ but I'm not sure.

You sound like a person of diverse. Hopefully, you'll stick around and have people scratching their heads.

 

[alicia91]

Alicia you are confronting the major problem with MBTI. You'll go read the ESJ descriptions and think, "Hmmm, I don't feel like I'm a docile mule who values security and tradition so much that if all that I held sacred hung in the balance I'd boldly form a human chain to impede the progress that would save it."

LOL (where's the laughing smilie when you needs it?) So true! I think I started to object to the ISFJ's stereotype of 'sheeplike and shallow.'

Proteanmix - do you mean that I pointed out that I'm strongly S - I think my intro post made that point, not the reverse? I mentioned my S-type interests. Anyhow, if I did, then it must have been a typo since I've thought my interests were mostly S-type things. Hmm..

Now, if we get down to the facts and speak a language I'm sure you'll understand: you test ISFJ, so you are an ISFJ. If the description doesn't fit, it's because there's a problem with the description and theory

How about a problem with the test? For so many of the questions I've honestly wanted to answer 'it depends on the situation' but of course that's never an option. Or I wonder 'should I answer it based on an ideal situation for me (what would make me happiest) or the way I go about it RIGHT NOW?' Not straightforward IMO.

Anyhow, thanks so much everyone! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to write such detailed, helpful posts. One day I hope to be able to do the same. Right now I'm off to start my first class in Adobe Photoshop. Should be fun! I'll check back later.

 

[Maverick]

How about a problem with the test? For so many of the questions I've honestly wanted to answer 'it depends on the situation' but of course that's never an option. Or I wonder 'should I answer it based on an ideal situation for me (what would make me happiest) or the way I go about it RIGHT NOW?' Not straightforward IMO.

Anyhow, thanks so much everyone! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to write such detailed, helpful posts. One day I hope to be able to do the same. Right now I'm off to start my first class in Adobe Photoshop. Should be fun! I'll check back later.

Of course that's possible but here I see you took the test on similarminds. Even if done by an amateur, they are reliable and validated and I actually think the answering format is superior to the forced choice in the official MBTI. The problem is not with those tests. If you are unsure, you can just answer in the middle.

A better system of personality is the Five Factor model, for which there is a reliable and valid test here:

Short Form for the IPIP NEO-PI, Introductory Information

It would be interesting for you to report those results and see if this could help us in seeing the situation more clearly.

MBTI theory pretends everyone has a preference but there is no scientific evidence behind this. So if you test middle of the road on something, consider yourself an "x" on that dimension.

 

[INTJMom]

..."Hmmm, I don't feel like I'm a docile mule who values security and tradition so much that if all that I held sacred hung in the balance I'd boldly form a human chain to impede the progress that would save it."...

tee-hee

 

[INTJMom]

... How about a problem with the test? For so many of the questions I've honestly wanted to answer 'it depends on the situation' but of course that's never an option. Or I wonder 'should I answer it based on an ideal situation for me (what would make me happiest) or the way I go about it RIGHT NOW?' Not straightforward IMO. ...

My favorite test is here - favorite in that it usually gives accurate results:
Online test based on Jung - Myers-Briggs typology

 

[arcticangel02]

Also, have you looked at Best-Fit Type : Exploring the Multiple Models of Personality Type? The descriptions there are very good, because they come from discussions with people of that type themselves, rather than theoretical description. Tends to get rid of some of that bias.

Very good question! When I was younger (say a teen) I would have gotten involved and nagged her about his bad qualities, why she is too good for him and possibly tried to hook her up with someone better. Now that I'm older and have mostly concluded that nobody is perfect, and people need to WANT to change their situations THEMSELVES, I would let it go. However, if there was a lot of complaining from my friend, I would certainly say something. For example, lets say my friend was intelligent, educated and ambitious and her SO was a uneducated, lazy, idiot, when she complained I would say 'I've always know you as a person who has strong convictions about what you want in life, I guess ending up with 'Joe' is part of that, though I'm not sure how he fits in. What exactly do you see in him?' If she were to ask directly 'what do you think of Joe?' I would say 'seems kind of uneducated and lazy, but perhaps he has lots of great qualities that make up for those?'

Interesting!

And to save writing an essay here (amongst other things), I'll PM you.

 

[alicia91]

I've really been thinking about all of this and while I haven't come to any conclusions I'm really stuck on what Jennifer posted about how as females ISFJ tendencies are rewarded. So to some extend I'm wondering what is the 'real' me versus just what I've been doing for the last 15 years. The truth is that a little over a year ago I started a part-time decorating business because I couldn't stand being a housewife for one more day! I was unfullfilled and my self-esteem was at an all time low. I felt trapped in the house, like a slave for my family, and taken for granted by everyone. While I do the usual housewifey things, I really dislike being tied to my house.

I'm also wondering if I'm an E that is a bit socially rusty or lacks confidence or if I'm a mild I. It's like I desperately want to go out and be more social, I'm just not used to it. But perhaps that points to an I? Another thing that's important to me is to have a lot of variety in what I do. For example, while I love to finish up projects, I also want a new one to dive into right away. I can't stand REALLY long-term projects that take forever. I want immediate, tangible results. That's why I 'install' most everything for my clients. I climb a ladder, mount the art, move the sofa, roll out the rug and light the candles. So while I do a good job ( I don't purposely rush) my philosophy: NEW PROJECT, WORK HARD........... NEXT!! Even with my daily stuff around the house, I might designate the hours of 11-1 to get things done, but I don't want to do what I did yesterday. I like novelty - PLANNED novelty! LOL

Something else that may or may not be relevant is my educational history. Right after high school, I wen to university to study Economics. Why? I have no idea. I eventually switched to Political Science and History but didn't graduate. I liked the courses but honestly couldn't forsee myself working in any of these fields which is why I dropped out after 3 years. Then I worked a series of jobs like Office Space Leasing Agent - OK job, Receptinist at Veterinarian - worst job ever (liked the receptionist job but hated cleaning kennels and bathing cats), Sales clerk - loved it, modeling - I'm a bit short so I got jobs like swimsuit modeling, working auto-shows etc. I didn't like it all that much, WAY too focused on the exterior even for me and I'm really into fashion and beauty. Went back to school and eventually in my late 20's got a degree in Interior Design. I don't like everything to do with this career either but it's better than PoliSci.

Another thing - when I think I've got the correct letters I-S-T-J for example, I read the descriptions and don't think it describes me at all!

Thanks for the test links - I'll do those and post my results.

 

[alicia91]

I took the Short Form test that Maverick posted. I'm depressed, I must be the most average person ever. Here are my scores:

Extraversion - 48

Your score on Extraversion is average, indicating you are neither a subdued loner nor a jovial chatterbox. You enjoy time with others but also time alone.

Agreeableness - 43

Your level of Agreeableness is average, indicating some concern with others' Needs, but, generally, unwillingness to sacrifice yourself for others.

Concientiousness - 59

Your score on Conscientiousness is average. This means you are reasonably reliable, organized, and self-controlled

Neuroticism - 49

Your score on Neuroticism is average, indicating that your level of emotional reactivity is typical of the general population. Stressful and frustrating situations are somewhat upsetting to you, but you are generally able to get over these feelings and cope with these situations.

Openess to Exeprience - 38

Your score on Openness to Experience is average, indicating you enjoy tradition but are willing to try new things. Your thinking is neither simple nor complex. To others you appear to be a well-educated person but not an intellectual.

I'm going to spend more time reading my results. Hopefully I can learn something from it. What I found interesting was that my level of Self-Sufficiency was low - 25. I agree with this. I think this is a problem for me in general and it's something that I'd like to improve. I guess it's the same thing as Confidence which I've always lacked - but often been able to fake.

 

[arcticangel02]

I'm also wondering if I'm an E that is a bit socially rusty or lacks confidence or if I'm a mild I. It's like I desperately want to go out and be more social, I'm just not used to it. But perhaps that points to an I?

This sounds a little like my confusion with my E/I score - I spent a lot of time at home (with just my family), and didn't really get out very much. Most of the time I was content and fine with it, but I also sort of felt like I was in a bad habit of spending too much time by myself, and sometimes really wished I could get out of the house more. I just didn't. But my manner of interacting with people when I do go out, although it's not 'center of attention look at ME' stuff, is extraverted.

And so I decided I was an extravert, though it's fairly moderate/low.

Also, try not to confuse being social and confident with being E - we can be shy, too! ^^ Though 'desperately want to go out and be more social' does sound to me like an E who's in the habit of not being social.

A better indicator is more like, if you're with a bunch of people you don't necessarily know well for a long while - at the end of the day, do you feel tired and need some time to yourself, to recoup? Or do you find that you're more energised, and wouldn't mind staying around the people longer?

It probably won't be that clear-cut, but maybe that'll help some?

(Okay, I'm totally giving you conflicting advice. >< I'm sorry! I hope you can make more sense of it, though.)

I took the Short Form test that Maverick posted. I'm depressed, I must be the most average person ever. Here are my scores:

You know what? Average usually just means well-rounded.

Don't worry, you'll work your type out eventually. Even if you decide on xSxJ, or something. Plenty of others do.

 

[alicia91]

It's always been a bit of an insecurity of mine that I'm so 'average' in many ways. I'm really a 'Jack-of-All-Trades' in SO many ways but 'Master of Nothing.' On the other hand I get complimented on the fact that I'm well-rounded, and willing to do all sorts of things, have a lot of hobbies and interests. Yet I can't think of any real 'talents.' Maybe I need to discover some?

But my manner of interacting with people when I do go out, although it's not 'center of attention look at ME' stuff, is extraverted.

How exactly do E's interact versus I's?

 

[ptgatsby]

You know what? Average usually just means well-rounded.

Just to emphasise this - average scores on FFM (I didn't see the link, but I am assuming it was NEO) are a good thing... generally speaking, a very good thing.

From the FFM score, you are going to have a hell of a time getting a clear answer from MBTI... the only thing that I would say is likely is that you are a S

As far as as the E/I thing goes - I'd ask yourself "do you have more positive emotions than most people"... if you do, then you are an E. If you have a lack of positive emotions, then you are an I. You would be looking for how excitable you are, how long you are happy for, etc. Don't think about negative emotions in this, just positive "happy/satisfied" types of feelings. It's a limited, but it has strong biological ties that are (next to) impossible to hide. Just avoid thinking about negative periods in particular (stress and such do dampen positive emotions).

 

[alicia91]

That's good to know that 'average' is a postive thing!

As far as as the E/I thing goes - I'd ask yourself "do you have more positive emotions than most people"... if you do, then you are an E. If you have a lack of positive emotions, then you are an I.

Even though my mom called me a 'wet blanket' I think I'm fairly perky. So I'm leaning towards positive.

I'm seriously leaning towards ESTJ based on studying dominant, secondary, etc. processes.

 

[autumn]

I just read all the posts in this discussion today, and from the original post and the conversation that followed, I would say the following:

Going by Keirsey temperament, you sound quite a bit like an SJ. I do not see a preference for N at all. (Not that you don't ever use it, of course, but I sure don't see a preference for it over S.)

You also do sound extroverted, though how extroverted I couldn't really say. An extroverted SJ would extrovert their decision-making function (T or F), which would lead to the person being more adept at managing people and things in their "outer world."

Based on this, I would make an educated guess of ESTJ or ESFJ.

Do remember that any type "test" can yield an inaccurate result, even when taken carefully. To maximize your chances of an accurate result, answer the questions as you would when not under any kind of outside pressure (work or social expectations) and with regard to how you are naturally (that is to say, if a person is naturally a strong thinker but has consciously worked at developing their feeling function, they should answer questions as their natural inclinations would have them answer, not as they would answer after working on developing their weaker functions). This can be a bit challenging and can take more time for self-reflection, but should be rewarding.

As far as creativity goes, I think any type can be creative, though they may show that creativity in different ways. Interior design, gardening and landscaping seem like fitting modes of creativity for an SJ, in that they manifestly involve the use of the five senses (S preference) and are practical (especially since you have made a business from this venture!) and involve hearth and home.

I hope this helps!

autumn

 

[alicia91]

I think you are right autumn about needing to do the quiz using the natural tendency, and not the 'developed' ones. That's so much easier said than done! Especially when you are my age and have read a lot of self-help books! But I now think that the F function is something that I've conciously worked on and I believe it's made be a better, more rounded person, but nevertheless, I believe it's not as natural to me as thinking.

So for now, I'm going to go with XSTJ. I know I'm near the middle of the spectrum on the I versus E, and it's really impossible for me to tell. Yesterday I thought E but today I'm thinking it's I. I'm going to work on getting out more and socializing and see how it makes me feel. Then I'll probably fill in that last letter.

Thanks!

 

[ygolo]

The Every Day Use of Multiple Models

For really difficult typing, I recommend Character and Personality Type.

I think with as difficult a typing job as yours, it would be important to avoid any "forced fits". For instance, I think, you may have forced fit J for yourself.

Not to add to your confusion, but have you completely ruled out the xSTPs?

Getting slight scores in one direction or another mean very little, IMO.

There are a lot of dichotomies, not just the 4 MBTI ones(some seem like minor "rotations" of the main MBTI ones).

It'd be interesting to see if any of these other distinctions are absolutely clear. The ones that aren't clear, I would leave alone for a while.

1. Another way to think of E vs. I:Initiating vs. Responding. Do you tend to initiate or respond to people more often.
   
2. Another way to think of N vs. S: Abstract vs. Concrete -- You seem concrete.
   
3. Directing vs. Informing:This is close to J vs. P but not quite. It is a reflection of the type and purpose of the language you use (which reflects a bit of what happens in your mind). Do you generally use language more to "direct" people (in what could certainly be a helpful way) or to "inform" people (in ways that can certainly help them find direction).
   
   ESTPs, and ISTPs are more directing types (despite being Ps), while ESFJs, and ISFJs are more informing types (despite being Js).
   
4. Do you aim to control outcomes, or to ensure movement towards goals?
   
5. Are you focused more on how people are structured or in how to motivate them?
   
6. Do you prefer peer/comrade relationships or relationships like teacher-student, mentor-protege?
   

In addition to the dichotomies, there are the 4 temperaments, the 4 interaction styles, and the 8 cognitive processes. It would be interesting how you rank them.

Again, if the preferences aren't clear, IMO that they don't need to be ranked (just give them a "tie")

1. Temperaments
   1. Artisan - Focused on having the freedom to act and making an impact
   2. Guardian - Focused on responsibilities and desire to be reliable
   3. Idealist - Focused on meaning and identity w/ regard to higher purposes
   4. Rational - Focused on competence and having the skills to deal with life well.
2. Interaction Styles
   1. In-Charge - likes to take the lead
   2. Get-Things-Going - likes to make things happen
   3. Chart-the-Course - likes to make sure we are on track
   4. Behind-the-scenes - likes to make sure we chose the right track
3. Cognitive Processes
   You took the test with regard to this. We kind-of know your preferences.

There are also "flavors" of type that affect behavior. The ones listed in the book, I recommended are (again, if none of these are clear, IMO of the opinion it is better to just move-on):

1. participative vs. independent styles: Even if recharged more by being with people, extraverts can be very independent. Even if recharged more by solatary activities, and introvert can be very "team" oriented.
   an extravert who is independent can seem introverted initially, while an introvert who is participative can seem extraverted.
2. Local vs. Global perspectiveeople with local perspectives like to focus on their community and family, while people with a global perspective like to focus on things like the economy and world-affairs. Global perspective people can seem more abstract than they really are, and people with local perspective can seem more concrete than they actually are.
3. hard vs. soft demeanor:Success orientation vs. self-awareness orientation. I think this is the same as Type A vs. B. IMO, being type A, can make you seem more like a J. Being type B can make you seem more like a P.
4. Mainstream vs. Counter-Culture attitude:IMO, being counter-culture can make you seem more interested in peer-relationships that you are, while being mainstream can make you seem more interested in mentor-protege relationships than you really are.

Beyond that there are 8 life themes identified:
physical, creative - makes you seem like an SP
academic, entrepreneurial - makes you seem like an NT
community, establishment - makes you seem like an SJ
political, growth - makes you seem like an NF

I probably didn't help clarify your type. But I think it is only really valuable to know your type if it can explain things about yourself that you didn't know before.

I am still coming to terms with my "INTPness". There are many aspects that I don't like about myself, that are really stereotypically INTP pitfalls.

 

[INTJMom]

I think you are right autumn about needing to do the quiz using the natural tendency, and not the 'developed' ones. That's so much easier said than done! Especially when you are my age and have read a lot of self-help books! But I now think that the F function is something that I've conciously worked on and I believe it's made be a better, more rounded person, but nevertheless, I believe it's not as natural to me as thinking.

So for now, I'm going to go with XSTJ. I know I'm near the middle of the spectrum on the I versus E, and it's really impossible for me to tell. Yesterday I thought E but today I'm thinking it's I. I'm going to work on getting out more and socializing and see how it makes me feel. Then I'll probably fill in that last letter.

Thanks!

My 21 year old ISTJ daughter is convinced she's an E when in fact she's an I. She thinks she's an E because she "needs" her friends. This puzzled me for a long time, too. But I learned that her need to spend so much time with her friends was not an E trait but rather the SJ in her. SJs tend to be very relationship oriented.

I was convinced she was an I because she would come home from school, head straight to her room, close the door, and spend the next several hours doing homework. If we opened the door or disturbed her, we would get yelled at.

If she doesn't get enough time alone, she gets irritable.

 

[INTJMom]

...But I think it is only really valuable to know your type if it can explain things about yourself that you didn't know before.....

You are SO RIGHT about that!
MBTI has helped me so much in this regard!




Thanks for the book recommendation.

 

[alicia91]

Thanks to both of you!

ygolo - thanks for all that information. You've given me a lot to investigate. I don't think I'll have time to delve into it this weekend - got to finish Christmas decorating, but I will report back on Monday. I suppose I haven't completely ruled out the P type at this point, but the main thing that points to J is that I absolutely want 'closure' about relationships and I generally feel better about things when they are wrapped up. I used to think that I had a time managment problem (well, perhaps I do?) because I just can't leave something that isn't at a logical concluding point KWIM? Then it messes up everything else I was supposed to do.

INTJMom - that's very interesting about your daughter thinking that she's an E when she is an I. I honestly believe I'm somewhere near the middle of the spectrum, but whenever I read something about E's versus I's I think "that's ME!" then I read something about the other type and think "no, that's more ME!" and so on, back and forth. Well, at this point, I'm going to say that if I am around other people too long I need to recharge, but if I'm alone too much (or just with my immediate family) then I need to get out and socialize and I feel much better.