ENTJ to ESTP

[Ezra]

I've recently (i.e. last night) been considering a move from ENTJ to ESTP, mainly due to having read this page.

I'm one step away from concluding that MBTI is rubbish, and that it is incompatible with my preferred system, socionics.

I am definitely an SLE in socionics, but this does not mean I'm an ESTP in MBTI or Keirsey. Firstly, although some aspects of the SP temperament - and more specifically ESTP - resonate with me (getting the ball rolling, a touch of impulsiveness, getting stuck in rather than reading/watching the tutorial first - learning on the move), a lot doesn't (excessive partying and going out, fast-paced lifestyle without thought, adrenalin junkie activities). Moreover, NT temperament fits me overall well (I'd say more aspects of NT fit me than aspects of SP). On top of that, ENTJ generally reads better than ESTP in terms of me.

Secondly, the amount of profiles I've read, and the differences in focus and emphasis between Se in socionics and Se in MBTT (e.g. Se in socionics is far more concerned with the organisational abilities of the SLE rather than in MBTT where it's more about sensory experience) have shown me that there is definitely a difference between the two types. There are traits in the SLE that fit with ENTJ better than ESTP. It has even been argued that SLEs are most like xNTJs than; more than ESTPs at least. Also, it is argued ESTPs are more like ESFPs.

To put it simply, the overall vibe I get from ENTJs is that they think too much, strategise too excessively and often do not act quickly enough. The overall vibe I get from the ESTP is that they think too little, act too impulsively and don't really strategise at all. The fact is, not only do I see myself as balanced, but this balance is something that the SLE, particularly the Ti subtype, caters for very well. It describes me more accurately than either ENTJ or ESTP.

If I can't be pinned down in MBTI, I'm inclined to think that there is something wrong with the system rather than my skills of analysis. Which is why I'm asking for your thoughts on this, your thoughts on ESTP vs ENTJ, and your general understand of socionics SLE vs ENTJ/ESTP (if you have an understanding). I'm not ruling it out that my knowledge of MBTI is a bit hazy, but I think it's more likely that MBTI describes me in one of two such ways that I just don't really like that much.

 

[Halla74]

^You make an excellent point, Sir.
My sentiments are very similar to yours and I shall tell you why.

DISCLAIMER:
As you requested. First, please be advised that my understanding of MBTI, Socionics, and Enneagram is about as deep as can be expected from a person that researched these systems for purposes of self discovery over the last two years. Initially as part of marriage counseling, and then further as a result of personal interest. BUT - I am no expert in any of the three, but I get the gist of them and understand your post above very well.

FACTS:
(1) Ten years ago I took an online MBTI test and tested ENTJ. I read the type description then, and thought it fit me fairly well. But I never ventured further in my understanding of MBTI at that point in my life.

(2) In the past two years, I took two online personality tests: (a) Personality100: PhD-certified Personality Test , and (b) Thomson-Maidenbaum Personality Inventory. BOTH resulted in typing me as ESTP.

(3) Half of the ESTP type descriptions are utter rubbish. "Used car salesman" and "party animal" and "shallow" etc. are negative subjective value statements that can be applied to any person of any type. It's just easier to apply them to a social extrovert. ESTJs get nailed with alot of negative stereotypes too, and they are only one function different than ESTPs. See the pattern? Many in this world do not like assertive people that are not afraid to assume a leadership position or position of authority.

The positive elements of the most common ESTP type descriptions are accurate, as they are not tied to behaviors associated with an unhealthy personality, sociopathic behaviors, etc.

(4) The type description I identify most with is the SLE Male Profile from the Wikisocion - Socionics Wiki - Соционика Вики site. It is spot on for the most part.

(5) ENTJ and ESTP are often confused for one and other. This has been discussed many times here.

(6) ENTP and ESTP share many common behaviors and mannerisms. For instance, I am Enneagram 7w8, as are many ENTPs on this site, and a few ESTPs as well. (Off Comment: Watch the movie "Thank You For Smoking" and consider the lead character "Nick Naylor" has been called the "prototypical ENTP man" by some here. He could easily be an ESTP as well)

(7) My father is an ESTJ, so it is no surprise I am ESTP, as I have genes for it and also was reared by someone with 75% type compatibility, thus reinforcing any genetic predispositions I had. My brother is INTJ. So, I was exposed to an iNtuitive thinker my whole life, and he is 10 years older than I am, so he was somewhat of an influence on me in my formative years. My mother is most likely a guardian of some sort. So, further SJ reinforcement there.

What does this mean? To me, it means I have a pretty good shot at being balanced on N/S and J/P. I can be timely if I need to be, but I prefer flexibility. I can judge things in black and white, or shades of grey, depending on the issue at hand. I am very aware of my surroundings and assimilate concrete facts about all that I am doing in order to become capable at influencing my surroundings as quickly as possible, BUT if need be I am fine with having limited facts available to me and extrapolating into potential solutions via use of iNtuition. Although I test ESTP, I am sure that I am more close to EXTX.

When I was younger I was more wild, but who wasn't? I've never put myself in harm's way via recreational pursuits. I have always been a productive person, been objective, and been of kind demeanor. I am most assuredly a thinking man AND a man of action.

CONCLUSION:
I agree with you Ezra. There is obviously some overlap and some inaccuracy in MBTI type profiles specific to the ESTP. Especially when you are dealing with an ESTP that is of a healthy mindset and of sufficient maturity. We all have our default programming, but that does not mean we are ruled by it. I am happy to be whatever mix of ESTP/ENTJ/ESTJ/ENTP that I am, as all four types have much to offer, and I know that I exhibit the common characteristics of each depending on what I am doing and how things are going.

QUESTIONS:
What is your Enneagram?

Do you know your parent's MBTI or Socionics types? I tested my Father and brother.

Free Enneagram Personality Test

ANALYSIS:
A quick analysis of the ENTJ and ESTP type descriptions below yields the following results:

(1) Words common in both ENTJ and ESTP type descriptions: decisive, emotionally stable, fearless, likes to be center of attention, likes to lead, outgoing, risk taker, social.

(2) Words with similar analogues in each type:
ESTP = ENTJ
finisher = finishes most things they start
likes crowds = comfortable around others
hard to discourage = driven
self confident = confident
tends to dominate conversations = manipulative

The similarities between the two are striking indeed...
-------------------------------
LINKS FOR FUN:
ESTP - ENTJ / ENTJ - ESTP

ESTP

ENTJ

ENTJ/ESTP/ENTP/ESTJ (Summarized) Type Profiles
ENTJ - Jung Type Descriptions

ESTP - Jung Type Descriptions

ENTP - Jung Type Descriptions

ESTJ - Jung Type Descriptions

 

[BlackCat]

You and Halla seem to have covered everything I wanted to add... but here is some food for thought-

Far more socionists in the experiment typed the INTJ description as SLE or LIE rather than as LII or ILI

Source- J/P switch - Wikisocion

So there are some NTJ qualities in the STPs... A lot of INTJs seem to relate to ISTPs a lot, and ENTJs to ESTPs. I'm guessing that the INTJ/ISTP thing is because INTJs are usually INTp, and ISTPs usually stay as an ISTp, so they would be able to relate to each other in a functional way.

You seem really similar to this person- http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/members/une_autre.html

You seem like a social variant last in the enneagram. I think that ESTPs who are social last can appear to be ENTJ like; since they aren't the stereotyped socially outgoing ESTP. But I'm not sure with you. You do seem to be an ENTJ, but at the same time there seems to be something off.

But if you've found your socionics type and it's SLE then that's what matters.

 

[NewEra]

Ezra, for the most part I see where you're coming from. I find myself relating equally to 2 (even 3) MBTI descriptions at the same time. No MBTI description describes me that well (there are some which are closer than others, but none is good enough). This is the deeper dimension of personality, in which one's behavior and characteristics seem to not fit the MBTI types. There are actually Socionics types that fit me better than MBTI types.

 

[garbage]

I'm one step away from concluding that MBTI is rubbish, and that it is incompatible with my preferred system, socionics.
...
If I can't be pinned down in MBTI, I'm inclined to think that there is something wrong with the system rather than my skills of analysis.

Oh, God yes. I ended up having to get into Socionics because MBTI isn't internally robust enough to actually tell me anything consistently.

If all else fails, then I'm with BlackCat.. just go with what Socionics tells you. Though Socionics and MBTI aren't completely compatible, chances are that if you have something figured out with the more robust of the two theories, it can tell you something about where you stand in the other one.

 

[Jaguar]

I'm one step away from concluding that MBTI is rubbish

Join the club.

 

[Kalach]

Secondly, the amount of profiles I've read, and the differences in focus and emphasis between Se in socionics and Se in MBTT (e.g. Se in socionics is far more concerned with the organisational abilities of the SLE rather than in MBTT where it's more about sensory experience) have shown me that there is definitely a difference between the two types.

People keep talking Socionics and I keep on trying to understand...

Seems to me Socionics--at least as exemplified by the Wikiscion--describes the role of the functions in their various positions without actually saying very much at all about what the function is. That's probably a start, then, with Socionics, realising that they DON'T DEFINE FUNCTIONS. As such their type descriptions are more detailed, sometimes a lot more relatable.

It interesting, here on typoC there's an emphasis on functions in isolation, and recently there's been a move toward thinking about functions in combination and how that means, for example, that Jungian Se in ESTPs is not the same thing as Jungian Se in ENTJs, exactly because of "location" within in consciousness and therefore role. Socionics seems to have that covered pretty well.

But they have whacked out function orders and neither their INTp nor INTj works for me, so they can take their obfuscation and Se it.


What's with the function orders in Socionics, huh? Given that Socionics emphasizes function role rather than function qua function, how did they arrive at their function orders?

 

[Ezra]

Appreciate the responses from all of you, all quality stuff. Halla74, I love your post! Haha, it's massive.

(2) In the past two years, I took two online personality tests: (a) Personality100: PhD-certified Personality Test , and (b) Thomson-Maidenbaum Personality Inventory. BOTH resulted in typing me as ESTP.

No way am I spending my money on a test, but I did the second one and came out ESTP. S 8 N 6, and quite firmly P > J actually. What you say about your being more like ExTx - I am EXACTLY the same.

(6) ENTP and ESTP share many common behaviors and mannerisms. For instance, I am Enneagram 7w8, as are many ENTPs on this site, and a few ESTPs as well. (Off Comment: Watch the movie "Thank You For Smoking" and consider the lead character "Nick Naylor" has been called the "prototypical ENTP man" by some here. He could easily be an ESTP as well)

I love that film. I always saw Naylor as an ENTP probably for the reason you just suggested. I guess he could be an ESTP too. But if he is really an N type then I'm more inclined to see myself as an ENTJ, because I see more clearly what makes an N type an N type.

When I was younger I was more wild, but who wasn't? I've never put myself in harm's way via recreational pursuits. I have always been a productive person, been objective, and been of kind demeanor. I am most assuredly a thinking man AND a man of action.

Interesting... I've become MORE wild over the years. If anything I've become far more P than I used to be (I was very very J when I was 16 or 17). As for the S/N distinction, I've always been very balanced, frequently testing as ESTJ.

But the way you describe yourself - that's me too. Thinking man and a man of action as well. If you are the thinking man ESTP, I am happy being the action man ENTJ counterpart.

I agree with you Ezra. There is obviously some overlap and some inaccuracy in MBTI type profiles specific to the ESTP. Especially when you are dealing with an ESTP that is of a healthy mindset and of sufficient maturity. We all have our default programming, but that does not mean we are ruled by it. I am happy to be whatever mix of ESTP/ENTJ/ESTJ/ENTP that I am, as all four types have much to offer, and I know that I exhibit the common characteristics of each depending on what I am doing and how things are going.

If you had to give an order of preference to these, what would you say?

I'd be ENTJ > ESTP = ESTJ > ENTP

What is your Enneagram?

8w7 sp/sx, although I've considered balanced wings in the past.

Do you know your parent's MBTI or Socionics types? I tested my Father and brother.

Dad: MBTI INFP, socionics IEI
Step-mum: MBTI ESFJ, socionics possibly Fe base (EIE or ESE) or Si creative (LSE or ESE) or maybe even SLE.
Mum: MBTI ESFP, socionics ESE
Step-dad: MBTI ENFP, socionics SEI

self confident = confident

What's the difference, IYO?

I'm guessing that the INTJ/ISTP thing is because INTJs are usually INTp, and ISTPs usually stay as an ISTp, so they would be able to relate to each other in a functional way.

Nooo no no no, INTJs are not usually ILIs (what you call INTp) or LIIs (INTjs). As for ISTPs, there are no shortage of them on the16types - they all seem to think they're SLIs, but they're not at all. They're more likely SEIs or Beta STs (LSIs and SLEs).

You seem really similar to this person- http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/members/une_autre.html

I thought that too!

You seem like a social variant last in the enneagram. I think that ESTPs who are social last can appear to be ENTJ like; since they aren't the stereotyped socially outgoing ESTP. But I'm not sure with you. You do seem to be an ENTJ, but at the same time there seems to be something off.

I'm actually social last. Remember, so-first isn't about being sociable - it's about being aware of social dynamics between large groups of people, and about finding one's identity within groups.

And I agree, an off-colour ENTJ fo' sho'. Just like Fabio is an off-colour ESTP.

There are actually Socionics types that fit me better than MBTI types.

Which ones?

Seems to me Socionics--at least as exemplified by the Wikiscion--describes the role of the functions in their various positions without actually saying very much at all about what the function is. That's probably a start, then, with Socionics, realising that they DON'T DEFINE FUNCTIONS. As such their type descriptions are more detailed, sometimes a lot more relatable.

You may wish to check out the socionics workshop wiki functional descriptions, which are very high quality and describe well the functions on their own rather than in terms of a type.

What's with the function orders in Socionics, huh? Given that Socionics emphasizes function role rather than function qua function, how did they arrive at their function orders?

The function orders are designed with relationships between types in mind. So if I am SLE, the functional ordering of the IEI complements my own perfectly. That is why we are duals. What I really like about socionics over MBTT is that rather than personality types consisting of four functions with just one single way of, say, being sensing (either introverted or extroverted), it incorporates all functions with both styles. So every person can use extroverted and introverted sensing, but the point is, not everyone is as adept as each other at them; also, while an SLE obviously can't use Si while using Se, they can still use Si sometimes; Se is just their preferred method, hence why it is where it is in functional ordering of an SLE. So the reason an IEI has it as fifth (dual seeking) function is because they are crap at it, but they value it, so they want it from an SLE. Understand?

If you have any other questions I'd be glad to clear them up for you. Socionics is an extremely rewarding system when understood well and used correctly (my best friend is getting married to his dual! And I'm into something with my dual - duality really is amazing).

 

[Kalach]

You may wish to check out the socionics workshop wiki functional descriptions, which are very high quality and describe well the functions on their own rather than in terms of a type.

Nah, I looked, it's horseshit. Socionics is making it up as they go along. They don't have a good fundamental model. They have really good function role descriptions, and impressively storylined type descriptions, but the rest of it they're just making up so they don't have to be subsumed by MBTT.

The function orders are designed with relationships between types in mind.

And you're not seeing that as bogus? A technical reorganisation that does no more than let them not be MBTT?

They have great stories! There's a rich panoply of characters in Socionics. It's great stuff. In that, Socionics has something more interesting going on than the namby pamby nice and positive type description tradition started by Myers. But I'll come right out and say, hieroglyphs are bizarre. Yeah, I know, every good scientific theory uses symbols, but it exists to no purpose in Socionics and damns the whole process right there.

I could be wrong.

 

[yenom]

I think the P and J difference is pretty obvious. So is S/N.
Its like confusing yourself as a girl when you have a penis.

 

[Halla74]

Halla74, I love your post! Haha, it's massive.

Thank you, Muhahaaa. I strive to be thorough and clear.

No way am I spending my money on a test, but I did the second one and came out ESTP. S 8 N 6, and quite firmly P > J actually. What you say about your being more like ExTx - I am EXACTLY the same.

At the time I paid for the test I was actively in need of alot of information quickly, and desired a single comprehensive battery that my wife and I both could take. It was very useful in that regard. But, once I did some Googling and found the myriad of good quality free tools available, I realized that it was not necessary, just convenient.

I love that film. I always saw Naylor as an ENTP probably for the reason you just suggested. I guess he could be an ESTP too. But if he is really an N type then I'm more inclined to see myself as an ENTJ, because I see more clearly what makes an N type an N type.

I'm really interested in the bolded part of your response above. Could you spare a few words to flesh it out? I'll give you my take on N Vs. S just for grins, and hopefully to simplify your efforts in responding. In general, if I were to summarize N/S according to what I've read and what I've experienced I'd say that:

Stereotypical differences according to readings:
(1) S = concrete (tangible facts) / N = abstract (possibilities)
(2) S = here and now / N = future oriented

Interesting adages heard from others:
(1) To determine if someone is S, N, or J; throw a Nerf ball at their head while they are sitting: (a) if they catch it, they are S, (b) if it hits them in the head, they are N, and (c) if it hits them in the head, and they get pissed, they ar J.
(2) NFs = always strive for things to be better and perfect, rarely staisfed, sometimes emotionally sensitive.
(3) NTs = always objective, find rational solutions to problems, aloof or "detached", and good at math/logic.

Personal observations:
(1) Sensor/Thinkers emulate Rationals, especially if their S/N is balanced.
(2) STs and NTs have way more in common with each other than either do with NFs.
(3) Despite being a P, I am very orderly. I organize EVERYTHING. I know where EVERYTHING is in my house and office. So, I'll say P's with OCD easily emulate J's in alot of cases.

Interesting... I've become MORE wild over the years. If anything I've become far more P than I used to be (I was very very J when I was 16 or 17). As for the S/N distinction, I've always been very balanced, frequently testing as ESTJ.

Me too. I was actually VERY conservative and anal when younger, until around age 20. Then I finished "hatching."

But the way you describe yourself - that's me too. Thinking man and a man of action as well. If you are the thinking man ESTP, I am happy being the action man ENTJ counterpart.

Nice analogy.

If you had to give an order of preference to these, what would you say?

I'd be ENTJ > ESTP = ESTJ > ENTP

Hmmm, I like this question:

To mirror your response, my preference order would be...

ESTP >= ENTJ > ESTJ > ENTP

note1: Arrows are not mathematical operators...

note2: ESTP/ENTJ seem my default modes of operation, when things require even more formality I'll lock onto my ESTJ Dad's methods, and finally, in my own time when there is nothing on the line, but I am free to explore and dream up my future I go into ENTP mode.
Based on overall type descritpion...

Based on what modality I must operate in...

ESTP: Social default, happy, fun-loving rational and logical problem solver, efficient and egalitarian. Go where the action is, if there is none create it. Deal with conflict head-on, go for the jugular, but give opponents an out in order to allow them to save face and retreat in peace. + umpyouup:

ENTJ: Work default, identify the best course of action and defeat all other possibilities, maintain professional image, ensure processes are efficient, integrated, and re-usable. Deal with conflict head-on, go for the jugular, take no prisoners.

ESTJ: Secondary mode of work if part of a multi-vendor team in a hierarchical organization where I have little political pull. Get the job done, do it right, and don't let the small stuff interfere with the objective at hand. There is one right way. A purely brilliant finish can be foiled by one simple screw up, be anal and authoritarian to ensure compliance with methods of task completion.

ENTP: Secondary social mode of operation. Unconventional exuberant genius. Dream big, dream often to fuel capacity for improvisation. Rules are guidelines, work hard play hard. I got the rulebreaking renegade traits from my INTJ brother, ironically enough, he was a hellion.

8w7 sp/sx, although I've considered balanced wings in the past.

As in 7w8 Vs. 8w7?

OR

8w7 + 8w9?

I'm definitely Ring 7 sx/so/sp, but I have a healthy smattering of 8 traits too. I don't identify with Ring 6 much at all. I've not a neurotic bone in my body.

What do you think of Ennegram Vs. MBTI or Socionics?

I know that the Enneagram Institute's "Enneathought of the Day" has been useful to me at times, as it often compels you to focus on something other than your default mode of thinking/living, and when I have made effort to do so, the exercise has resulted in a small amount of personal growth, simply by focusing on what is always there, but often does not register in my processing of life events.

Dad: MBTI INFP, socionics IEI
Step-mum: MBTI ESFJ, socionics possibly Fe base (EIE or ESE) or Si creative (LSE or ESE) or maybe even SLE.
Mum: MBTI ESFP, socionics ESE
Step-dad: MBTI ENFP, socionics SEI

Wow, you're family is interesting! Two EPs, one EJ, and one INFP. You had to have an interesting upbringing.

What's the difference, IYO?

Ahhh, another interesting question.

I thought it silly for both to be used in the ESTP/ENTJ types. I would have simply used "confident" in both, but I did not write those descriptions. Essentially I think them to be the same. "Self" is extraneous as the context was a type description of a person, or a "self."

 

[BlackCat]

Nooo no no no, INTJs are not usually ILIs (what you call INTp) or LIIs (INTjs). As for ISTPs, there are no shortage of them on the16types - they all seem to think they're SLIs, but they're not at all. They're more likely SEIs or Beta STs (LSIs and SLEs).

Meh it all varies. But what type in your experience are INTJs in socionics?

I'm actually social last. Remember, so-first isn't about being sociable - it's about being aware of social dynamics between large groups of people, and about finding one's identity within groups.

Yeah that too lol. See, I don't think of that when it comes to socializing because I'm a social last. I'm just basically unaware of those factors.

 

[Ezra]

I refuse to consider this question any more. I'm sticking with ENTJ. Either I'm wrong, or I'm right and this was unnecessary fuss. If I'm wrong I just don't really care that much. I'll let other people doubt it and be the judges of what they themselves think (if anything). I basically do think I'm an ENTJ with "something off".

I could be wrong.

Each to his own. You prefer MBTI, stick with it man.

I'm really interested in the bolded part of your response above. Could you spare a few words to flesh it out?

Well because if what he does is what one would deem "abstract" then I am definitely abstract. This is all I really need - some external criterion by which to judge myself. That's the problem with self-analysis; I don't know the definitions of some of these words like "abstract". But that in itself (I think I've said this before) could be the key to my type - N > S. Because honestly what S would consider what "abstract" means when taking the test? They'd just say "no".

In general, if I were to summarize N/S according to what I've read and what I've experienced I'd say that:

Stereotypical differences according to readings:
(1) S = concrete (tangible facts) / N = abstract (possibilities)
(2) S = here and now / N = future oriented

Possibilities and future-orientation is my life. I live with the future in mind at all times. Never could I live in the present only. There's always some part of my mind which is thinking about six, twelve months in advance. I can't stop myself from doing this.

8w7 + 8w9?

This.

What do you think of Ennegram Vs. MBTI or Socionics?

I came to each of the systems in that order. My understanding of the Enneagram is the best, mainly because I've been surrounded by it since I was sixteen, and my understanding of socionics isn't far off. To be honest, my understanding of MBTI is pretty superficial (although I've read Keirsey's Please Understand Me II) simply because I don't really see much use in it besides giving yourself a label. Socionics helps you in all relationships (far better than does MBTI), and helps you identify the person you will have the most rewarding relationship with. Enneagram I like because it helps me as a person. I guess MBTI is just a bit of fun for me, because I do enjoy typology in and for itself.

You had to have an interesting upbringing.

I had a great upbringing.

Meh it all varies. But what type in your experience are INTJs in socionics?

Did you read that page I linked to?

Personally I think INTJs tend to be LIEs and occasionally SLEs (e.g. INTJ Eights). I'm sure some of them are LIIs and ILIs though.