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  1. #131
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    This topic illustrates the very things the theory highlights, and that's the S/N and Te/i distinctions, where science is colored by the predominant STJ mindset that says the only thing "real" is what is concrete and measurable.

    Though you hear about the left/right brain theory (popularized by Lenore Thomson, and there are a few others who use it, and it supposedly came from a particular source), but that, I haven't been hearing any reaction to, from science. That would sound like it could tie the functions to empirical neurological research. It makes sense that if all our other bodily and mental functions are coming from certain regions of the brain, then our perception and decision making preferences would also, and that's all type is, really.
    Last edited by Eric B; 01-16-2010 at 11:22 PM.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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  2. #132
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    1. This link was a study done at the U of New Orleans on 359 students.
    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    2. This is the meta-study that appears to have been done through Texas A&M

    3. This link was an interesting discussion examining various aspects of MBTI validity and contained the following comment by Paul Matthews. The counter arguments seemed to focus on MBTI as the most reliable tool available more than its intrinsic reliability. This study I believe was showing MBTI's validity in facilitating doctor-patient communication.
    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Study concluding MBTI meets or exceeds the reliability of other psychological instruments:
    bmj.com Rapid Responses for Schuwirth and Cantillon, 328 (7450) 1244
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Matthews
    The MBTI personality dimensions seem to be distributed such that most people fall between the two extremes around the boundary point of the dichotomous category distinctions. Therefore people who are very small distances apart on the dimensional measure are categorised as being qualitatively different to one another because they fall either side of the cut-off point between the types and are lumped in with much more extreme scores that fall on the same side of the cut-off however far apart they are on the dimension.

    This flaw in the MBTI, as a measure of personality, undermines the significance of the conclusions of Clack et al as it is not possible to establish the magnitude of difference between doctors and their patients on the personality dimensions.

    While it seems a good idea to teach trainee doctors to try and "ameliorate the potential difficulties resulting from such personality differences, thereby improving the outcome of the interaction" it would be unhelpful to include the MBTI and personality type in the communication skills training of health care professionals, given its limited validity and potential for misuse (Pittenger 1993).
    4. The National Academy of Sciences research focused on MBTI as a predictor of job performance. As an organization it is a leader in the sciences. (Context = "Election to membership in the National Academy of Sciences is considered one of the highest honors that can be accorded a U.S. scientist or engineer. Academy membership recognizes those who have made distinguished and continuing achievements in original research.")

    Organizational Performance Dimensions

    It appears that whether MBTI is seen as valid vs. invalid has in part to do with what aspect of its application is being measured. The more subjective the measurement (facilitating communication) the more reliable it is measured to be. The more objectively measurable the application (job performance), the less valid it appears to be as an indicator.

    I can see in part why it could increase communication because the more doctors and patients focused on increasing communication, the more communication would be facilitated. If a doctor took great care to treat me like an ESFP, my stay in the hospital might be more fun and my response positive to the process. If I were treated like an INTJ, the doctor might be straightforward with me about my diagnoses which I would appreciate as well. Any effort to increase communication would make my stay more positive regardless. Extremes of this might not be the case as some personality types might reject one extreme or another, but my point is that there is a fairly wide margin for error in accurately determining personality type in such a process while still maintaining some degree of success. I should see if/how the study addresses this issue.

    Edit: As a tool based on observation and categorization, it reminds me of the historical approach in biology to identifying species some of which has become proven false with the increased understanding of genetics. The same is for any analysis based on observation and categorization that assumes inherent similarities. From what I can tell MBTI is the best system so far, but its method for categorization is pretty limited to observation, and it will most likely be replaced eventually especially now that there are brain scan technology to provide more definitive results.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  3. #133
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    There is really nothing to prove, I tend to think of the functions as attitudes, and we don't need to prove that attitudes exist. My attitude towards life is Inward looking, focused on Sensory experiences, mindful of Feelings and emotion and I prefer to Perceive the outer world than judge it. I don't need to prove this as it is just a way of describing my subjective experience of the life.

    Your type is just your personal opinion of what your general attitudes are, the test is just a way to help you figure out what those attitudes might be.

    How do I prove to others that I prefer apples to oranges?

    The problem is when people want to start applying the system to specific behaviours and talents. This is tempting to many people because predicting behaviour gives us a sense of control and determining talents/skills gives us a sense of heirachy. The MBTI never claims to be able to do this.

    Example:

    You can have a preference for male or female sexual partners, you can also have the actual behaviour (closeted gay men marrying and having sex with women for example) and you can have skill/ability at having sex with either males or females.

    Preference, behaviour and skill can be related or unrelated. People seem to want MBTI to tell us all of these things but it only ever claims to measure preference.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

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  4. #134
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    There is really nothing to prove, I tend to think of the functions as attitudes, and we don't need to prove that attitudes exist. My attitude towards life is Inward looking, focused on Sensory experiences, mindful of Feelings and emotion and I prefer to Perceive the outer world than judge it. I don't need to prove this as it is just a way of describing my subjective experience of the life.
    Ths is very nice. But since the Enlightenment we have known that we are all subject to self deception and illusion. That is why we do double blind experiments - so that we will avoid self deception and illusion.

    And the problem is that MBTI plays on our self deception and illusion.

    So MBTI is a popular confidence trick like astrology.

  5. #135
    Member peterk's Avatar
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    nothing about psychology can ever be really proven untill there is a mathematical theory of the mind that provides predictions that can be tested empirically.

  6. #136
    Senior Member evilrobot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And we are here because MBTI was taken up by the USA military during WW II. And then used by the USA military and USA business ever since to create a popular, world-wide cult.

    These are the most unispired trolls, the ones who do repetitive threads and posts trashing the mbti/Enneagram/etc. to get attention (though I admit calling the mbti a cult does add a little spice to it). Yet it works, everyone falls for it and they get the replies.
    X___________________________________

    If things are not what they seem, and we are forever reminded that this is the casethen it must also be observed that enough of us ignore this truth to keep the world from collapsing. Thomas Ligotti, The Mystics of Muelenberg

  7. #137
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilrobot View Post
    These are the most unispired trolls, the ones who do repetitive threads and posts trashing the mbti/Enneagram/etc. to get attention (though I admit calling the mbti a cult does add a little spice to it). Yet it works, everyone falls for it and they get the replies.
    Yeah, Victor is just more articulate than most trolls so he gets this adoring NFP fanclub that's just dazzled by his vocabulary (and rarely bothers paying attention to how ridiculous what he's actually saying is.)
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #138
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yeah, Victor is just more articulate than most trolls so he gets this adoring NFP fanclub that's just dazzled by his vocabulary (and rarely bothers paying attention to how ridiculous what he's actually saying is.)
    And there's people like me that are entertained by how ridiculous what he's actually saying is.

    Well, for awhile anyway, I admit it's gotten a bit tiresome lately. Vic needs a new angle or something.
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  9. #139
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander29 View Post
    I hear time after time that MBTI is only a set of logical groupings, it's not scientifically proven, you can't use it to dogmatically, etc. I then hear you need to consider the nuances of how the functions may be ordered, how strong they are etc.

    My question is this - and I speak from the standpoint with no experience in research - why can't it be proven? At least in some form, fashion, or respect. Has nobody ever tried? Are there difficulties in running surveys or experiments to determine accuracy of the profiles? Do the studies show flaws and that it doesn't work (that we don't hear about)? There seems to be a large body of information out there, but always "no proof". Is there anything in the field of psychology that can be proven?

    If there is no proof that it works, and people don't believe in it, then why are we all here?
    You are so ambitious.
    There is no proof.
    Ascendability is the word.

    Why are we all here?
    Exactly.

  10. #140
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Do you talk like that in real life? Must be tough keeping it up all day.
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