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  1. #381
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Absolutely.

    But the point is, that even if there are people who don't understand Victor, you have to admit the possibility that some others might manage to successfully do it.

    And they do not understand you when you try to pastiche Victor.
    They do, you don't. You cannot speak for a THEY. Only they can speak for themselves. This is flawed.

    You can speak only for you, or, speak for others if they showed their lack of understanding of my piece, e.g.,. Victor and BT are likely candidates, but, I'd call bias if you give those as examples.

    You're one of many. I have evidence that some of them do understand me, I don't know if your reading comprehension missed my point about my rep comments.

    You would have been proven correct ONLY if 1/ everybody would not understand Victor,
    Strawman. I never said everyone should understand Victor, just that there are people that do not.

    So, it's still the same issue, there are some that understand Victor, some that don't. There are some that understood that piece of mine, and some that didn't. I'm not making any commentary on subjective evaluation of quality between his and mine, mind you. Just what gets achieved. C-O-M-P-R-E-H-E-N-S-I-O-N.

    if those who could would not have noticed the obvious difference with your pastiche.
    Again, faulty logic. You said that you did not understand mine, so to you this should be the only difference between his work and mine. You cannot comment on any other difference between us. Just that you understood his, and not mine. Now if you had said you understood (and proved it, hence my starting you off with the challenge), then only can any other qualitative difference you propose between Victor and I be relevant.

    Ti-man! Use the Ti!

  2. #382
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Ti-man! Use the Ti!
    I already have and you know it, that's why you tried to mimic me in your last response.

    You even went to the obvious conclusion, that you cannot speak for "they", and that one blatant exception to your assumption is enough to make it invalid. I'm glad you eventually understood it too.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #383
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    There is a big difference between understanding Victor and feeling like his style contributes meaningfully to a discussion. Many times, a thread just becomes The Victor Show. Victor complains about being misunderstood, that people aren't trying to see him or connect with him, but it is usually of his own doing. If being understood as a person were really his aim, he would use any means possible to communicate his thoughts, and certainly not immediately play the martyr when it turns out that his style isn't everyone's cup of tea. Furthermore, Victor likes to give an air of humility, but his complete stubbornness with regard to adhering to his "art" belies a fairly large ego, at least in my estimation. Then when a faction of forumers don't care for the flow of the thread being broken by this style and express that feeling, Victor refuses to give credence to that idea. He fancies himself a misunderstood genius, an outcast for his art. "They do not understand, and so they must persecute." He doesn't TRY to connect. As Q says, he wants fans. Not friends. At least on this board.

    Blackmail, what evidence do you have that people have been misunderstanding Q's points? I have found them to be very clearly laid out.
    Something Witty

  4. #384
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    I already have and you know it, that's why you tried to mimic me in your last response.

    You even went to the obvious conclusion, that you cannot speak for "they", and that one blatant exception to your assumption is enough to make it invalid. I'm glad you eventually understood it too.
    Make sense!

  5. #385
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    @banana Wow, really? Defend the merits of Victor's "art" if you must, but Qre:us has made some valid points in this thread.
    Granted. Sorry.

    I don't feel the need to defend Victor's art. I'm taking part in it - as are you.

    Cheers.

  6. #386
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    There is a big difference between understanding Victor and feeling like his style contributes meaningfully to a discussion. Many times, a thread just becomes The Victor Show. Victor complains about being misunderstood, that people aren't trying to see him or connect with him, but it is usually of his own doing. If being understood as a person were really his aim, he would use any means possible to communicate his thoughts, and certainly not immediately play the martyr when it turns out that his style isn't everyone's cup of tea. Furthermore, Victor likes to give an air of humility, but his complete stubbornness with regard to adhering to his "art" belies a fairly large ego, at least in my estimation. Then when a faction of forumers don't care for the flow of the thread being broken by this style and express that feeling, Victor refuses to give credence to that idea. He fancies himself a misunderstood genius, an outcast for his art. "They do not understand, and so they must persecute." He doesn't TRY to connect. As Q says, he wants fans. Not friends. At least on this board.
    Obviously, you hate Victor. So what?

    Blackmail, what evidence do you have that people have been misunderstanding Q's points? I have found them to be very clearly laid out.
    I have never pretended that it's impossible to agree with Q, so you're purposefully missing the point.
    On the other hand, you and many others seem to pretend it's impossible to understand Victor, and that's it's entirely his fault.

    Once again, a single exception is enough to make Q's assumption logically flawed.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #387
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Once again, a single exception is enough to make Q's assumption logically flawed.
    Pray tell, what is my assumption?

    Edit: I don't even think you know what my assumption is, as evidenced by how you have continued to interpret my posts.

  8. #388
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    I don't feel the need to defend Victor's art. I'm taking part in it - as are you.
    Yes, you are taking part in the art of conversation.

    And it is quite like a telephone conversation - it won't work if both parties remain silent, and it won't work if even one party remains silent.

    But like a telephone conversation, we listen not only to what is being said but how it is being said, the tone of voice.

    I have been told that the telephone shouldn't work because it provides no context. But is does work and the context is provided within the spoken language itself, and of course the tone of voice.

    And we are often told it is difficult to communicate here because there is no context, but we do communicate because we provide the context by the way we write.

    So we write in two channels, like stereo - what we write and they way we write.

    And naturally I am drawing attention to the way we write.

    So the two channels can be harmonious or disharmonious, congruent or incongruent. They can be point and counter-point. They can be concordant or discordant.

    Traditional music is harmonious and concordant, but much modern classical music is disharmonious and discordant.

    And just as most modern classical music is not understood and jangles on the traditional ear, so my posts jangle the ear as well.

    But like modern classical music, my posts draw attention to the ear.

    But they keep telling me they can't hear.

  9. #389
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    If being understood as a person were really his aim, he would use any means possible to communicate his thoughts, and certainly not immediately play the martyr when it turns out that his style isn't everyone's cup of tea.
    I think Victor genuinely tries to get understood. And I would go even further away in saying that it's precisely because he wants so desperately to get understood, that his sentences become so dense, so concise and so factual. He's an absolute perfectionist, not an artist.

    His sentences have meaning AND substance. And he wouldn't tolerate a waste of words that could lead to a lack of either qualities. According to me, his sentences are crystal clear precisely because of that, because Victor's style allow me to stay focused and concentrated on every word.

    My issue is that I get bored very quickly by ordinary conversations. At least with Victor, that's never the case.


    Furthermore, Victor likes to give an air of humility, but his complete stubbornness with regard to adhering to his "art" belies a fairly large ego, at least in my estimation.
    So what?
    He's not humble, nor am I, nor are may many persons here.

    Is humility relevant?

    Do you feel humiliated in his presence?
    Are your feelings relevant?
    Do you want to make him pay for his arrogance?

    Then when a faction of forumers don't care for the flow of the thread being broken by this style and express that feeling, Victor refuses to give credence to that idea.
    I have to admit I've never understood that "faction of forumers" either, even if I ackowledge they exist and have the right to think that.
    But like Victor, I do not give them credence to their idea.

    He fancies himself a misunderstood genius, an outcast for his art.
    I've never ever perceived Victor that way. Once again, Victor is not an "artist". He's factual, dense and concise. He's not writing poems or that sort of things, he's rather pointing out to "obviousnesses".

    And once again, he uses a very pure form of undefiled English. That's the kind of English I'm the most familiar with. I'm far less familiar with slang, oral or popular expressions.
    Thus I'd say Victor is easier to read than many of you.

    "They do not understand, and so they must persecute."
    That's absolutely true. That's a rule as old as humanity itself.

    He doesn't TRY to connect.
    Not true. He's trying to do the best he can. I would do the same in French, I respect that.

    As Q says, he wants fans. Not friends. At least on this board.
    I don't care of what he wants. I do not know him personally.

    I do care if what he writes makes sense to me first.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #390
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    But they keep telling me they can't hear.
    And they can't hear for a very good reason - because they are literate. And print privileges the eye and the ear fades into the background.

    But the electronic media, such as this one, includes all the senses and puts the ear on an equal footing with the eye.

    So when I say they can't hear, it is literally true.

    Artists like Picasso and composers of modern classical music have been telling us this for a long time, but we can't hear them. They look strange to us and sound strange to us, just as I sound strange. For I am now a stranger in the literate world.

    I remember telling my father that when you are in prison the first thing to do is to get out. But he told me that first you need to know where you are going. But at this point I only wanted to get out and I didn't know where I would go.

    So first of all I became a hippy. I recognised that the industrial world was based on the clock, so I thew away my watch.

    Then I recognised that for the first time in human history we had overcome scarcity, so I threw away my job.

    Then I recognised that the telephone system was a world-wide net and I became a Phone Freak. I am sure you remember the Blue Box that enabled all the Phone Freaks to talk to each other all over the world for free. And we even produced our own magazine called, "Telephone Art".

    But then a miracle happened when the USA military invented the internet to fight a nuclear war. Then the Universities saw how useful the internet was and connected all the Universities in the world to the Net. Then the business saw the possibilities and connected us all to the internet. And here we are.

    So first I escaped the literate, industrial world by throwing away my watch and my job. Then I became a hippy and a Phone Freak. Then they connected the computer to the telephone system, and I was in pig heaven.

    Of course the internet had been prefigured by Marshall McLuhan, called the patron saint of the internet by Wired Magazine. And even earlier, prefigured by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin who gave the internet its true name - the Noosphere.

    So here I am, listening to you across the world in the Noosphere. I am, so to speak, whispering in your ear.

    I have escaped the tyranny of the literate eye and am in love with your ear.

    My father was right - I did need to somewhere to go. But when I first escaped the literate, industrial world, there was no where to go.

    But, like Parsifal, after a long journey through the trackless forest, I have found the Holy Grail. And here you all are - waiting for me in the Noosphere.

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