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View Poll Results: What type is Babylon Candle?

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  • INFJ

    1 3.85%
  • INTJ

    3 11.54%
  • INTP

    0 0%
  • INFP

    4 15.38%
  • ENFJ

    4 15.38%
  • ENTJ

    8 30.77%
  • ENTP

    3 11.54%
  • ENFP

    3 11.54%
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  1. #131
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Marmalade = ENFP. With strong Fi. Yup, final answer.

  2. #132
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    If that isn't NJ, I don't know what is.

    OK, that's narrowed it down to 4!

    INFJ
    ENFJ
    INTJ
    ENTJ

    And if my previous assumption with Fe is correct, that narrows it down even more!

    INFJ
    ENFJ

    So, do you lead with Ni or Fe? If descriptions aren't good enough to decide, a good way is to determine your Inferior Function or Tertiary Function.

    I really like the tertiary temptation thing. I especially like this George Costanza breakdown:

    Hypothesis: INTP "in the grip" of the inferior function
    "Everyone has to like me"

    Inferior extraverted feeling shows up in nearly every episode, but comes out explicitly when his girlfriend asks him rhetorically, "Does everyone have to like you?" George answers, "Yes! Everyone has to like me!" Here we see George's quixotic quest laid plain. He wants to be liked. But always on his terms, never on others'.

    Whenever anyone doesn't like or respect George, he views this as a failure of reason in need of correction. The other person must be set straight so they properly appreciate George and see for themselves that he has only been doing right, only for the purest motives of respect for the right order of things. Thus he appeals to introverted thinking. He tries to get people to see what truly makes sense--that they should like him.

    This always fails because Fe is not a matter of doing what makes sense, it's a matter of finding a place for yourself in the world of mutual obligations that grow out of what people actually do like. Some people like stuff that other people don't like, and from an Fe perspective, that's all there is to it. You can't argue someone into liking something. From a developed Fe perspective, you form your identity by your choices of whom to side with. You find commonalities where they really exist. You cultivate shared values where there is a foundation for common interest. You expand your sense of value to fit in, you don't demand that people be reasonable as you define reasonable. You genuinely bare your heart to people in a way that they understand without effort. When a dom-Fe type sincerely bares his heart, it automatically comes out in a politically acceptable way, because his heart has genuinely formed to fit his social niche. When dom-Fe types express warmth, they're not faking it. They choose conventional forms of expression simply because they know that these forms convey their true feelings clearly.

    There is simply no way to leap directly from a dom-Ti approach to a dom-Fe approach. When your whole value system centers around faithfulness to the causal order of things without regard for whether people like it, genuinely baring your heart means you're going to alienate nearly everyone in your society. If you insist on proving to them that your values are better than theirs (trying to win in the communal-values world by intransigent appeal to Ti), you're also going to alienate nearly everyone you meet.
    "Opposite George"

    Lenore Thomson's theory that the secondary function usually leads the way out of ruts like that might go as follows. While George usually uses extraverted intuition to concoct elaborate lies and deceive people ("Art Vandelay", the house in The Hamptons, etc.), always trying to keep the situation under his control, a truly extraverted approach to Ne would lead him to take chances by trying new things to see where they lead. Genuinely leap into the unknown, in other words, by pouncing on opportunities to open up new potential.

    This actually happens in the "Opposite George" episode. George observes that his instincts are always wrong. People say "trust your instincts" but his instincts always lead him to say or do the wrong thing. So he gets the idea of doing the exact opposite of his instincts. Thus is born "Opposite George". Whatever George would do instinctively, Opposite George will do the opposite. A gorgeous tall blonde in the diner has looked in his direction. His instinct would be to stay away from her--she's out of his reach. Instead, he walks up to her and says that he's unemployed and lives with his parents. She's interested.

    Later that episode, he interviews for a job with the Yankees. The interview is going well. Then George Steinbrenner walks in. George would have tried to suck up to Steinbrenner (inferior Fe, trying to curry favor by announcing commonality of values). Opposite George takes control: he tells off Steinbrenner, criticizing his decisions and accusing him of destroying a once-great organization. Steinbrenner says, "Hire this man."
    Developing the secondary

    Thus extraverted intuition--truly diving into the unknown, taking a calculated risk to see where it leads--is actually the solution to George's social problems, not extraverted feeling. George doesn't make a better place for himself in the world by sucking up to people or trying to follow conventional etiquette when his heart is not in it. He finds completely unexpected, unanticipatable opportunities to connect with people by trying bold, outlandish things that play to his strengths--and do not have certain outcomes. Unbeknownst to him, his previous life of curiosity, failure, analysis, even neurosis, has created capacities that he can draw upon when he pounces on an opportunity and takes a risk. Unlike in his previous introverted world, he has consciously accepted that he's not in control, that the social arena is bigger than he is, and he's dealing with it anyway.
    Okay, now reverse it:

    "No one has to like me. Logically, there are reasons why no one should or does like me."
    --inferior Ti

    What makes one lean on this mindset in the first place? How would one jump to this unhealthy view of Ti? When the ego can't locate the truth of this world view:

    "The relationships of friend-friend, parent-child, husband-wife, teacher-student, teammate-teammate, leader-follower, and many others are all ultimately defined by and exist in the medium of gestures exchanged between people--gestures that they recognize as defining that relationship."
    --Fe

    When the Fe ego is under pressure, it will first appeal to its tertiary helper: Se.

    Tertiary Se (ENxJ): "I'll physically intimidate him. I'll brandish a little power and he'll get back in line. Beneath all our refinement, people are just animals, and let me tell you, this animal will not be denied. I'll go with my gut instinct here. You can't know everything in advance, you have to trust your gut in each moment. Good thing my gut is trustworthy. A person with lesser character wouldn't be able to trust his luck the way I can." The Secondary Function (Ni) would say: "What is really dangerous here and what's just a paper tiger? What are some options you haven't considered yet only because the current way appears--falsely--to be necessarily so?"
    When the ego can't locate the truth of its world view, it will simply take everything "as is". I then take everything literally. The fact that I haven't said anything today, is because I literally have "no one" to talk to. Like George Costanza's poor use of Ne, I dont really "want to" use Ni effectively here. Instead I use it poorly, to back up my Fe-Se axis: "The deeper meaning is that people have a sinister dislike for me. No one sat next to me, its because there is a deeper dislike of me". The conspiracy thus re-enforces what my Se tertiary temptation was feeding the ego: "factually, there simply is no one here, right here and now".

    Thus the Fe inadequacy of the situation deepens, and the Se help is justified continually by warped and untrusted parent Ni. The appeal of a Ti understanding of the social world thus becomes lower and lower hanging fruit, "No one has to like me".

    So if this is the operational definition ^^^
    Then it could explain what we all plainly observe:
    1. I worry about Fe, a lot
    2. I default to Se, but reluctantly (im clearly not Se-dom)
    3. I use Ni
    4. I have some aspirational Ti
    5. I have some Fi

    I will only address 1, 2 and 5 (the others have been addressed before).

    1. I worry about Fe, a lot
    As a young kid (pre-middle school), I had some issues learning to talk. I could not express myself or connect as I wanted to. I would either cope through force, or climb into my head (imagination). I think I never really learned how to properly operate Fe, though its still at the front of my concerns. I think this is what separates me from ESTP or ISTP (they just dont seem to care).


    2. I default to Se, but reluctantly (im clearly not Se-dom)

    I do not "like" Se. I hate most typical Se activities. What I do like, is self expression, which can be Se. This sounds much more like tertiary than primary Se. Secondly, as a child, I often resorted to 'violence' (when ur little, its not as 'brutal' as the word 'violence' seems to represent) when my primary mode began to fail me (ive been a nice guy since then ).

    5. I have some Fi

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/online-personality-tests/14022-functions-analysis-what-s-my-mbti-type.html
    At a glance, the ENFJs tended to have rather equal Fi/Fe (and the INFPs also sometimes had rather equal Fi/Fe). Its only a self report inventory, but its worth noting that even the "strong identifiers", seem to overlap.

    ------------------------------------
    So this "messed up ENFJ" functional analysis would leave me as someone who:

    • appears Se > Ti when there is little faith in Fe, (I have been told by a close friend that people who don't talk to me, get the ESTP frat boy impression).
    • runs on the Fe-Se axis when carefree attention whoring (think ventrilo).
    • probably runs best when Fe-Se is broken with some well adjusted Ni.
    • is happiest when Fe works like it should
    • gets stuck in a conspiracy theory loop of Ni-Se-Ti when over analyzing
    • can simmer with weak Fi and outward guilt, justified by unhealthy Ti, like any EXFJ can


    Now, there might be a simpler theory than all of this. It would be the exact opposite:

    Tertiary Ni (ISxP): "I can't possibly go along with this, 'cuz it's all a lie. It's all a set-up by the Man. I'd just be serving his interests and not my own. I'm not gonna be suckered by all this self-serving bull. No way, man, I gotta go my own way." Or "Why should I imitate the cool people? Despite their shiny clothes and social connections, they are still as vulnerable as anyone else." The Secondary Function (Se) would say: "This thing's bigger than you. Better just go with the flow, do what you can, trust your instincts to deal with what's right here and now."
    ...I like my theory better. I posted earlier about my ISTP father. I love him, but I just don't see myself as ISTP.

  3. #133
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    I guess you're an ENFJ then. I never looked at Inferior Ti that way before, I wonder if it's the same with other ENFJs (and I wonder how it effectively differs from tertiary Ti, I suppose something along the lines of "this is not how this relationship should conduct itself!").
    Hello

  4. #134
    Pumpernickel
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    WTF if you come to the conclusion that you're an ENFJ I'm going to kill you for not listening to me say that you were an ENFJ about 32425435342 posts ago before you started doubting your type.

  5. #135
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    ^ That's what I thought, too.

  6. #136
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    I guess you're an ENFJ then. I never looked at Inferior Ti that way before, I wonder if it's the same with other ENFJs (and I wonder how it effectively differs from tertiary Ti, I suppose something along the lines of "this is not how this relationship should conduct itself!").
    I my "Logically, no one has to like me", is sometimes experienced by others as "ENFJs like people so much, that when they hit that dark spot, they really dont like people".


    Quote Originally Posted by justxher View Post
    WTF if you come to the conclusion that you're an ENFJ I'm going to kill you for not listening to me say that you were an ENFJ about 32425435342 posts ago before you started doubting your type.
    JJ = :steam:
    BC =

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Marmalade = ENFP. With strong Fi. Yup, final answer.
    Ha ha, thanks. I accept that answer.

  8. #138
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I'm completely open to your analysis. You are extremely knowledgable and helpful to others. I originally tested INFJ the first few times I took an MBTI test, but after I learned more about it, I think I was answering the questions according to what I thought I "should" say than the truth. What I admit as being closer to the truth about me garners the results of INFP and ENFP usually.

    People always tell me that I use a great deal of Fi on here, but maybe they're led by the fact that NFP is on my profile.

    I will say that when I take "functions" tests my Ni and Ne are almost identical, but my Fi is higher than my Fe. I also feel a fairly strong resonance with some aspects of Si, but I'm not detail oriented enough to be an SJ.
    marmalade, marmalade, marmalade... "detail-oriented" is not a pre-requisite for SJ... If it were, there's no way I'd make the cut.

    That said, I also wouldn't read too much into that weird time-travely thing. It makes it sound like all NPs live their life on acid.

    Also, if you do start a separate thread, count me in to play along. You'd make an interesting guinea pig.

  9. #139
    Glycerine
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    well, you don't seem like most EXTJs I know... you have a softer edge to you. ENFX for you. EXTJs come off very hard ass and cut the bullshit to me which I don't sense from you. Jaguar seems to be the perfect example of an ENTJ to me.

  10. #140
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pitseleh View Post
    well, you don't seem like most EXTJs I know... you have a softer edge to you. ENFX. EXTJs come off very hard ass and cut the bullshit to me which I don't sense from you. Jaguar seems to be the perfect example of an ENTJ to me.
    I appreciate the feedback from actual ENFJs (btw, why haven't you been on vent Pitseleh?) I would really like it if people gave me some feedback on my crazy function development theory on this page ^^^

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