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  1. #21
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    A lot of this sounds much like my mother; she is also very messy and she can come off as ESFP, but she's ESFJ. I think it's the developed Ne that is giving her an intuitive vibe, and what is making her disorganized. Ni I can pick up right away, so I know it's not Ni and therefore she isn't ENFJ (besides that she's tested ESFJ). My mother likes to talk about her future and self-improvement a lot, which people tend to associate with intuitives...does she do this?

  2. #22
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    OK, I'm not understanding this.

    Your mother read the descriptions, took the "tests" and self-typed as ENFJ YET, everyone else is saying she's not. Evidently, the woman isn't entitled to know herself as well as anonymous folks on a website.

    I admit, I have very low tolerance for people typing others as ESFJ on this forum based on primarily negative characteristics...I believe someone used "micromanaging" as proof positive she's an ESFJ?

    Tater, if you wanted to talk about is there a God, etc I'd exit the conversation ASAP and start talking about the latest celebrity gossip. I have zero interest in discussing such matters. I find topics like that to be the McDonald's of "abstract topics." Novice, easy and convenient, almost rote but you get quick abstract points for participating. To me, they're psuedo-abstract along the lines of "If a tree falls in the woods and there's no one around..." As far as the abstract topics are concerned, I'd try seeing what her interests her abstracting them and seeing how she responds. It seems to me that people are focusing on topics of interest to them and if the other person isn't enthralled, then they're not deep enough.

    I also notice that both you and Pitseleh still live at home. I find that a lot of the "defining" ESFJ characteristics tend to come from those who are still dependent on the ESFJ in their life for some reason and are not pleased with the situation. Many of the complaints are like she (typically she) is always focused on cleaning, or something like that. I'm not trivializing legitimate family problems, but I find it hard to take people complaining fairly typical parent-child relationships seriously. If I knew about MBTI when I was a teen, I'm sure my mother would be frontrunner for the most evil ESFJ ever.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  3. #23
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post

    I admit, I have very low tolerance for people typing others as ESFJ on this forum based on primarily negative characteristics...I believe someone used "micromanaging" as proof positive she's an ESFJ?


    I believe you are referring to my comment. What about my micro-managing connotation is negative? I certainly didn't mean it that way - micro-managing is extremely useful for most people in a plethora of situations. A lot of important medical jobs (pharmaceutical, pre-surgery assessors, etc.) absolutely require micro-managing skills to ensure the good of the patient, so I can't quite understand your negative definition of the phrase.

    Also, if you'll go back and reread my comment, there's a number of things you'll notice. 1) I didn't say it was proof positive, I merely suggested that I was sticking to a guess 2) I gave a pretty good possible reason behind the S/N issue, and the OP agreed with me 3) If you want to go around blaming people for invalidating the individual's take on their own type, the OP is a prime target (no hard feelings, Mystic Tater?). He's the son who is second guessing his mother's type (justifiably, I think) and posting on a forum for opinions to back up his guess. I'm merely commenting as requested.

    But technically, you are correct - if the mom is answering the test questions honestly, and the test is a good test, then she is in fact ENFJ. But you and I both know how stupid and misleading some of the questions are on the garbage facebook quiz versions of the test (I'm assuming you have facebook, proteanmix?). Even with an ideal perfect test, it's difficult for some less interested folk to take the time to introspect and answer honestly, rather than give the quick answer that sounds better.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    A lot of this sounds much like my mother; she is also very messy and she can come off as ESFP, but she's ESFJ. I think it's the developed Ne that is giving her an intuitive vibe, and what is making her disorganized. Ni I can pick up right away, so I know it's not Ni and therefore she isn't ENFJ (besides that she's tested ESFJ). My mother likes to talk about her future and self-improvement a lot, which people tend to associate with intuitives...does she do this?
    She mostly talks about the achievements of others like her husband or myself. Evidently she takes pride in her family. She doesn't really talk about self-help, she just does self-help. I would have to say that she is much more inclined to assist others, while sacrificing her own needs.
    Occasionally she will talk about her past credentials as a school teacher or what-have-you.

    These habits could just be motherly instinct, or pride, or anything. There are too many variables to simply determine what functions are at use here.

    I agree with Protean. I am projecting many of my mother's traits from my own perspective as her son. However, my mother isn't always cleaning. She would much rather leave the house to work in a more suitable environment for what she needs to do. She's not exactly the typical 1950's mother who wears an apron and vacuums that dirt outside. She's rebellious in that nature, and she doesn't feel that it's her duty to play maid all day. I respect her for that.

    Actually, she is the one who instigated the conversation about God and ethics. She really couldn't care less about celebrities. :spam2:

    I acknowledge that this test is designed for self confirmation, and I trust her opinions. The only way I will label her as an ESFJ is if she reforms her opinion with more information.

  5. #25
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    That's totally fair. I will say I've mistyped several of my friends who knew about MBTI and knew what they were, and once they corrected my mistake, it was usually immediately obvious. Quick example is my roommate, who I originally typed as ISFP, but he corrected me to INFP. Presently I don't know how I missed the N. You've gotta either be them, or know them really well to get the "correct" answer, if there is such a thing. Whereas me, I can only make observations, assess the material presented to me, and then make an educated guess.

  6. #26
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    She mostly talks about the achievements of others like her husband or myself. Evidently she takes pride in her family. She doesn't really talk about self-help, she just does self-help. I would have to say that she is much more inclined to assist others, while sacrificing her own needs.
    I've known both ENFJ and ESFJ to do this so...hmmm. Perhaps have her take another test (and/or have her read descriptions from bestfittype)? I don't like the PUM ones, FWIW, I score INTJ.

  7. #27
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubustribute View Post


    I believe you are referring to my comment. What about my micro-managing connotation is negative?
    Uh, the very definition of micromanagement is negative.

    In business management, micromanagement is a management style where a manager closely observes or controls the work of his or her subordinates or employees. Micromanagement is generally used as a negative term.
    I certainly didn't mean it that way - micro-managing is extremely useful for most people in a plethora of situations.
    Hardly anyone who is the recipient of a micromanagement style appreciates or would jump to work with a micromanager. It's a style that typically undermines a person's authority and sense of control.

    so I can't quite understand your negative definition of the phrase.
    See above.

    Also, if you'll go back and reread my comment, there's a number of things you'll notice. 1) I didn't say it was proof positive,
    You insisted over the span of three posts she was an ESFJ

    2) I gave a pretty good possible reason behind the S/N issue,
    Yes "micromanager": "I'm definitely noticing a VERY definitive tendency to micro-manage, which would explain dominant Fe, secondary Si. I'm sticking to my original guess - ESFJ."

    Which is the only proof you gave other than your anecdotal usage of Ni ("I really don't question much")

    and the OP agreed with me 3)
    Where's that?

    If you want to go around blaming people for invalidating the individual's take on their own type, the OP is a prime target (no hard feelings, Mystic Tater?).
    I didn't think Tater was invalidating anything. I think OP was quite neutral to be honest. People will type a person ESFJ based on the thin evidence of them being annoying. And also adept at micromanaging.

    He's the son who is second guessing his mother's type (justifiably, I think) and posting on a forum for opinions to back up his guess. I'm merely commenting as requested.
    That's cool. I just disagree with your assessment.

    But technically, you are correct - if the mom is answering the test questions honestly, and the test is a good test, then she is in fact ENFJ. But you and I both know how stupid and misleading some of the questions are on the garbage facebook quiz versions of the test (I'm assuming you have facebook, proteanmix?).
    Nope. Don't have an account with Facebook, thank the gods. And 90% of the people on this forum either took the humanmetrics, similarminds, PUM, OKCupid, or some other craptacular MBTI test and their type is pretty much unquestioned. If for every person on this forum we had a family member or friend giving us the real deal on them I'm pretty sure we'd have an MBTI Great Migration.

    Even with an ideal perfect test, it's difficult for some less interested folk to take the time to introspect and answer honestly, rather than give the quick answer that sounds better.
    True. And Tater said he showed his mommy different descriptions and she still thought ENFJ was a better fit.

    As Lauren mentioned the descriptions at Best-Fit Type : Exploring the Multiple Models of Personality Type are great. This is also a good site Myers-Briggs MBTI Personality Type | PersonalityPathways.com.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #28
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Uh, the very definition of micromanagement is negative.

    Hardly anyone who is the recipient of a micromanagement style appreciates or would jump to work with a micromanager. It's a style that typically undermines a person's authority and sense of control.
    Ah. Well it appears I have been mistaken. I really honestly did not mean micromanaging in a negative way...I sort of thought of it as a way to specifically hone in and fix problems in detail, one by one. I haven't yet experienced many jobs where I've heard the term used, so I guess our argument comes down to semantics. My apologies

  9. #29
    Senior Member dotdalidot's Avatar
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    This sounds a lot like my mom too. I've pretty much pegged her as ExFJ, she took the test too and came out ENFJ. Only thing I'm certain about is that she's definitely Fe dom.

  10. #30
    Senior Member incubustribute's Avatar
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    What would be a better indication of ESFJ, then? Since the micro-managing label seems to have been labeled as an unethical way of determining type.

    I mean, I'm trying to conceptualize Fe and Si, and I can't think of a better way to describe the relationship between those traits other than the above term. They organize their outer world based on how it makes them feel, and then they make observations on the results using concrete senses, no? How else would one describe this process?

    :confused:

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