INFp Turning into INFj

[Lethe]

I know someone who has high Fi and high Ti. He's an INTP, and he's extremely ethical.

I mean using those functions at the same time, not right after another.

For example, this is how I make decisions:

Ni: Perceives the available frameworks.
Te: Uses the environment to gauge every framework's level of efficiency and effectiveness. Selects several choices based on this analysis.
Fi: After Te is done evaluating, the Fi sees how those choices fit into its morals.

If I use all three actively in one moment, then I will never be able to make fast decisions because they lean towards conflicting directions.

Ni: Get it right.
Te: Get it done.
Fi: Make it moral.

 

[Thalassa]

I mean using those functions at the same time, not right after another.

For example, this is how I make decisions:

Ni: Perceives the available frameworks.
Te: Uses the environment to gauge every framework's level of efficiency. Selects several choices based on this analysis.
Fi: After Te is done evaluating, the Fi sees how those choices fit into its morals.

If I use all three actively in one moment, then I will never be able to make fast decisions because they lean towards conflicting directions.

Ni: Get it right.
Te: Get it done.
Fi: Make it moral.

I think he uses them together. He has a PhD in philosophy, and is also extremely concerned with current social ills and politics.

Of course I can't tell you how he uses his functions, because he's just a friend of mine. Obviously I'm not inside his head.

 

[Lethe]

I think he uses them together. He has a PhD in philosophy, and is also extremely concerned with current social ills and politics.

Of course I can't tell you how he uses his functions, because he's just a friend of mine. Obviously I'm not inside his head.

If you ever do, tell me. I'm very curious to know who does and how they do it.

 

[Ginkgo]

- How Fi is mistaken for Fe; specifically in INFPs

As I said earlier, Fe can be encapsulated within Fi. For instance, if an INFP is told by his/her religion that "you must follow the law", then that concept may be ingrained within the INFP's Fi.

- How Ne works in NPs

Incredibly indecisive and theoretical.

- Why separating oneself from one's perception is a challenging endeavor

Sorry, but it's impossible. One must simply do what they can with what they were given.

- The ever-imposing human needs and way it affects our decisions

Human needs en masse, or individually?

- The consequences of rejecting someone's human need

Not being human, ei. dying.

Yeah. I don't need a plethora of outside information to gain insights.

I envy you.

In your case, I would recommend the same conclusion for a different reason: saving your social reserves as a strong introvert, gaining quality personal interactions and inviting less moral troubles (Fi) for yourself.

Thank you for the careful consideration.

Conflict is sometimes necessary to help people expand on their thinking. We just need to be vigilant of when to start and where to stop. These boundaries are mainly up to each individual to determine for themselves.

Of course. Our society is built upon colossal failures and conflicts. It is how we get things done. However, I think one of my own primary strengths is determining when conflict can work against itself. The only point one will prove with a sword is who is a better sword fighter. Not who is actually truthful.

For someone who is a naturally terrible communicator like myself, it's a long, long procedure with countless failures. I have to keep reminding myself why reworking my communication style is suitable for excelling in my other goals.

I wouldn't say that. You're an excellent writer.

INFPs are considerably too individualistic to go along with the "mob mentality" without prior deliberation. Introverted feeling's flaws result in something else.

Indeed. Most of them could learn a valuable lesson from expressing their Fi to the mobs, if they exerted the effort. People listen, you know.


EDIT: I changed my looks to suite myself as an INFP forumer. The purple was bothering me.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

- INFJs with strong Fe emphasis

Being that I'm [essentially] the only INFJ in this thread, would this be referring to me?

 

[Lethe]

Being that I'm [essentially] the only INFJ in this thread, would this be referring to me?

Spot on.

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As I said earlier, Fe can be encapsulated within Fi. For instance, if an INFP is told by his/her religion that "you must follow the law", then that concept may be ingrained within the INFP's Fi.

It was already inputted into my database when this idea was previously covered.

Human needs en masse, or individually?

Masses: Common themes
Individual: How each need is carried out.

The only point one will prove with a sword is who is a better sword fighter. Not who is actually truthful.

Unfortunately, pretty much. We can't quantify the truth without evidence. How else would we know that our own eyes aren't deceiving us?

Sorry, but it's impossible. One must simply do what they can with what they were given.

Precisely. This thread offers more reasons on that.

I wouldn't say that. You're an excellent writer.

After a million heated arguments resulting in personal & other's frustration, maybe. Just maybe.

Indeed. Most of them could learn a valuable lesson from expressing their Fi to the mobs, if they exerted the effort. People listen, you know.

Right! Never assume that merely because someone appears incorrigible, they're not considering your input.

EDIT: I changed my looks to suite myself as an INFP forumer. The purple was bothering me.

Haha, I admit the old avatar was one of the things that gave me an Ni vibe.

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There's really not much to gain from criticizing someone for their functions. That's about as inherently prejudiced as racism.

Let's do an INTJ translation.

Criticism only works when someone's willing to listen to them. Otherwise, you'll be hitting your head against a brick wall. If you want someone to listen, you must speak in their language unless they are fluent in yours.

Criticism qualifies as racism when it unjustly interferes with your decisions. (Ex: Rejecting someone based on preconceived biases over their actual abilities.) But remember the manner in which a person defines as "criticism" or "racism" is mostly a subjective analysis that may not be applicable to everyone and every situation.

However, we can never escape the confines of our judgment because the world is inherently colored by our perception (made from personal experiences, desires, values, character, etc.). Yet we can use this judgment to criticize our own, leading us to the creation of a superior one. Without being critical or having a judgment, this becomes virtually impossible to do and we can never progress as an individual or society.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Spot on.

Wrong.

 

[Lethe]

Wrong.

I don't know much about you. Only what's written in this thread.

When I mentioned that you have strong Fe, it's compared to the other INFJs I have met in the past. So I'm using my personal scale to determine this, but I am not stating it is the absolute truth, how applicable it is to anyone else's opinion, or anything beyond what I can perceive. I create these subjective evaluations to give me something to base my decisions upon. Ultimately, it's for my use. I will reconsider my stance when I'm presented with more information.

 

[Ginkgo]

Spot on.
Mass: Common themes
Individual: How each need is carried out.

Mass: a good example wood be quantity vs quality.
Individual: each need? Like Maslow's triangle chart?

Haha, I admit the old avatar was one of the things that gave me an Ni vibe.

And I admit that was calculated on my part.

--------------------------------

Let's do an INTJ translation.

Criticism only works when someone's willing to listen to them. Otherwise, you'll be hitting your head against a brick wall. If you want someone to listen, you must speak in their language unless their fluent in yours.

Criticism qualifies as racism when it unjustly interferes with your decisions. (Ex: Rejecting someone based on preconceived biases over their actual abilities.) But remember the manner in which a person defines as "criticism" or "racism" is mostly a subjective analysis that may not be applicable to everyone and every situation.

However, we can never escape the confines of our judgment because the world is inherently colored by our perception (made from personal experiences, desires, values, character, etc.). Yet we can use this judgment to criticize our own that leads to the creation of a superior one. Without being critical or having a judgment, this becomes virtually impossible to do and we can never progress as an individual or society.

This reason is more rational. I suppose I was connecting the heritability of traits and functions to the heritability of race. But that probably just pissed him off, seeing as he doesn't like Fi. Maybe that was my intention.

I agree that communication is essential. As I alluded to earlier, many things are lost in translation, even among people of a common language. This is due to personality archetypal functions.

For instance, he was informing me of the MBTI functions in his ENTP fashion. He was simply displaying what he knows, because that's how he makes decisions.

However, while that method applies to INFPs, it is probably not necessary for INFJs. Funny enough, he thought I was an INFJ. (Or at least wanted me to be one).

And that is why your communication style is superior to his. You morph yourself to fit the needs of others.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

I don't know much about you. Only what's written in this thread.

Exactly. So thanks for your pseudo-psychoanalysis. But no thanks.

When I mentioned that you have strong Fe, it's compared to the other INFJs I have met in the past. So I'm using my personal scale to determine this, but I am not stating it is the absolute truth, nor how applicable it is to anyone else's opinion.

I suggest you rethink what Fe is, because it's clear that I haven't used much of it in this thread. And also rethink Ni because you don't seem to have much of it at all (hint: look into Si-Te). That's my analysis, based on what's written in this thread.

 

[Lethe]

Exactly. So thanks for your pseudo-psychoanalysis. But no thanks.

Do not take my interpretation as the truth. I make no indications that it is one and ever was one. Merely my view.

I refuse to take any responsibility beyond what I stated.

I suggest you rethink what Fe is, because it's clear that I haven't used much of it in this thread.

You didn't. I forgot to modify that I also included other observations of your posts in different threads. You seemed to use your own Fe to measure how much Fe Mystic Tater had, and this is what I was initially speaking about.

And also rethink Ni because you don't seem to have much of it at all. That's my analysis, based on what's written in this thread.

I always re-evaluate my own position, but privately. I am aware that I do not easily share Ni for personal, self-preservative reasons, and it gives me a different external image (Si-Te) because of this decision. To actively correct this perception so that others could see me the way I see myself, is not something I'm very concerned with. I'm more interested in executing my personal plans the way I see fit, which sometimes reflects a separate personality because I don't reveal the way I make decisions. Explaining the entire concept so that someone can see my reality is incredibly exhausting. I only do this if I want to create a learning experience.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

Do not take my interpretation as the truth.

Don't worry, I won't. Neither should you.

You didn't. I forgot to modify that I also included other observations of your posts in different threads. You seemed to use your own Fe to measure how much Fe Mystic Tater had and this is what I was initially speaking about.

Again, rethink Fe. And quit psychoanalyzing people since you're apparently not very good at it. As for the second sentence, I did nothing of the sort. But you would know that if you were really Ni-dom.

 

[Lethe]

Again, rethink Fe.

I'm still learning more about the eight functions, so this should not be a concern.

And quit analyzing people since you're not very good at it, seemingly.

Please read the prior responses. I said this analysis is only applicable to my world. Another reason why I am hesitant to share my Ni is because I acknowledge that many people do not enough background information of who I am to perceive them the way I intend it. Ni is very subjective and it must be understood as such.

I willing present objective information (S, Te) because it requires a lesser awareness of my identity. They can easily mold the data to their preferences and it will still work.

As for the second sentence, I did nothing of the sort.

Then you didn't. As I said, I change my perceptions as I receive new information.

But you would know that if you were really Ni-dom.

No one is impervious to mistakes.

 

[Lauren Ashley]

No one is impervious to mistakes.

Indeed.

But anyway, we derail. Back to the subject.

 

[Lethe]

And quit psychoanalyzing people since you're apparently not very good at it.

Another addition:

Quite an unreasonable suggestion. I have yet to meet a person who does not conjure the slightest first impression whatsoever in any given circumstance.

Example: "And also rethink Ni because you don't seem to have much of it at all (hint: look into Si-Te)."

If I have any poor psychoanalyzing skills (which I agree I do for certain types), then I will simply improve on them. Rejecting a challenge merely because I have insufficient abilities only stunts all potential improvement. This will be a disservice to myself, and anyone who demands that I understand them. I live with many SFJs relatives who happen to believe I will immediately know what they're thinking, so giving up is not an option lest I enjoy listening to their constant nagging. The "good" psychoanalyzing skill I demonstrated here was even poorer in the past. I corrected them by risking failure.

Indeed.

Yes, I make mistakes. Plenty of them. I don't need to publicly express this along with other personal information unless I think it benefits the situation. I highlight what could be done, and less on how I arrived there. (Which again, involves a tremendous understanding of my entire self to comprehend my reasoning.) If this happens to be the wisest decision, I would rely on more objective functions to translate my thoughts, in order to limit the confusion such as the one happening now, and get everyone straight to the point.

Generally, what's written in the post you pointed out, is entirely directed to Mystic Tater. If I were writing it to someone else, I will hold back that analysis to myself and allow them to speak first. My thoughts are always evolving, and I want to refrain from allowing others to view these initial beliefs as the final conclusion. (Another reason why Ni is better viewed as the user sees it, and why I rarely bother explaining or showing it to the outsider. An example of how my Ni gets misinterpreted is evidenced by this post -- here -- from this post --here. Disagreement is one thing, but being subjected to agree to a false interpretation is another story. I take responsibility for anything I have actually done, or intended to do.)

Next time, I'll write down the "warning: incomplete, and highly subjective analysis ahead" disclaimer because I did not realize anyone, but Mystic would respond to my personal thoughts as I was directly answering to his inquiry of me. I have a whole lot more subjective things to say, yet who will listen to my initial ideas? Not many. Whether I state them or keep silent, they still exist. This gets filtered out if I see someone, like yourself, searching for conclusions (Ti, Fe, Fi, Te) over random instincts (Ni, Ne, Se, Si) that has yet to be 70-100% verified. They're more or less unclear puzzle pieces I'm seeking to expand on. Good insights start somewhere, even if they are from a wrong hypothesis.

At the bottomline, guessing doesn't qualify as the serious mistake one takes credit for. It's more of a necessary error I use to trace the bigger picture, which is mostly unexplored. The official conclusion you're looking for has to wait until I uncover those major landmarks through experimentation.

But anyway, we derail. Back to the subject.

Agreed.

PM or write in my user profile, if you like to continue.

[This is nothing personal, beyond a basic interest in figuring out how I could make my inner, unfinished ideas more accessible to the public when I am questioned. It is something that could not be directly answered by anyone, but myself. External reactions (dislikes, likes or statements of individual preferences) to my posts are enough to resolve this issue. At the same time, this doesn't indicate my posts will become agreeable.]

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Mass: a good example wood be quantity vs quality.
Individual: each need? Like Maslow's triangle chart?

Individual as in how each person is dissimilar to the next.

I suppose I was connecting the heritability of traits and functions to the heritability of race. But that probably just pissed him off, seeing as he doesn't like Fi. Maybe that was my intention.

Ha, maybe.

I agree that communication is essential. As I alluded to earlier, many things are lost in translation, even among people of a common language. This is due to personality archetypal functions.

Exactly. Words mean only much as the outsider understands them. And imagine being the one of the few individuals who speaks a certain language. A large percentage of what I say typically gets lost in translation and I cannot depend on my natural preferences to explain it further. I contemplate with my natural preferences, and then translate them into another form. I'm not surprised if someone thinks I'm a natural speaker of a non-INTJ language. I sometimes feel flattered when they believe I am that good.

For instance, he was informing me of the MBTI functions in his ENTP fashion. He was simply displaying what he knows, because that's how he makes decisions.

I'm super glad you understood this. I promise you it will help in the future when you meet people who are vastly different from you. Make the most of your given situation.

You morph yourself to fit the needs of others.

I'm very flexible because I am occasionally too impatient to wait for the opposition to change, and I have molded myself this way to get things done quickly, effortlessly and effectively as much as possible. I can also be inflexible when I see that their criticism is more valuable than their agreement.

Someone else may do the same thing for a separate reason. Again, there are endless possibilities of getting onto the same path.

 

[527468]

I don't think so. His first (hint: probably the most accurate) cognitive results were Fi>Ne>Si>Te, with (probably bogus due to bias) Ni as the highest function. That's the functional arrangement of...INFP. Straight.

I don't always fit this. Lately more of the time than not, my Fi has been higher than Te, but never higher than Ni. One would think that would make me an F, but I just don't fit with F types. I'm sure the definitions of the function positions stay true, for their purpose, but often times a new dominant purpose is born. I don't see how someone can't engage in a new process for many days, causing the confusion. I've done it plenty of times, but I didn't think to change my type because of it because I've always gone back to Ni, and Te has always gained its strength back and lasted. That's why you should analyze the past typings, like how the OP has been INFP for a while, means it is probably his/her type no matter what.

 

[simulatedworld]

I know someone who has high Fi and high Ti. He's an INTP, and he's extremely ethical.

He doesn't actually have high Fi if he's an INTP; his Ti just recognizes situations where failing to take ethics into account would result in a broader breach of logic. Ti puts on an Fi mask because they're similar processes, but at the end of the day Ti is still most definitely in charge.

There's really not much to gain from criticizing someone for their functions. That's about as inherently prejudiced as racism.

Your Ne sucks.

 

[Ginkgo]

Your Ne sucks.

You tickle me.

 

[Thalassa]

He doesn't actually have high Fi if he's an INTP; his Ti just recognizes situations where failing to take ethics into account would result in a broader breach of logic. Ti puts on an Fi mask because they're similar processes, but at the end of the day Ti is still most definitely in charge.

Different people utilize different functions within their "type." There are no hard and fast rules to MBTI. People aren't machines with exact parts. I think it's completely disingeneous to think that that an individual INTP couldn't have high Fi, or any other combination of functions. MBTI isn't an exact science.

Ti is most definitely in charge, I'll grant you that, but he also high Fi.

 

[simulatedworld]

Different people utilize different functions within their "type." There are no hard and fast rules to MBTI. People aren't machines with exact parts. I think it's completely disingeneous to think that that an individual INTP couldn't have high Fi, or any other combination of functions. MBTI isn't an exact science.

Ti is most definitely in charge, I'll grant you that, but he also high Fi.

That's great and all, but no, he doesn't.

The fact that he appears very ethical to you from the outside and/or tests high Fi on cognitive function "tests" means little to nothing.

If you really grill him deeply about the reasons for his apparent "high Fi", you'll discover that they're all just rooted fundamentally in Ti. He probably holds a number of similar ethical beliefs to yours, but the reasons for them are not the same. Ti doesn't consider logic and people to be inseparable the way Fi does; anything he's doing that appears to be motivated by Fi is really just Ti.

Shadow functions aren't exercised directly; they're only imitated in situations where the equivalent natural function sees the advantage in imitating them.