INFp Turning into INFj

[simulatedworld]

I'm not an extrovert. I keep to myself most of the time, and in the past I have had social anxiety. It's not as bad now, but I'm still a loner. When I'm with a group of people, I feel the need to bring them together, whether it be by ideology or just getting something done. As far as I'm concerned, fighting just impedes progress and hurts people. For the most part, it's pointless.

We should all work toward a common goal out of love and respect for one another instead of pointlessly bickering. I am a registered independent because I refuse to choose political "stances", and my favorite color is purple because it represents a harmony between both red and blue.

Ok, now that I've gotten that off my shoulders, I'm going to sleep.

INFP.

 

[phthalocyanine]

lol @ favorite color

 

[Lauren Ashley]

To know for sure which INF type you are, examine how you relay facts and explanations to people. INFPs tend to be more visual and more poetic than INFJs, often prone to using illustrations to explain their theories and ideas. Kind of like how I did above. And in most of the discussions I've posted in on TypoC since signing up.

Okay, let's not go making gross over-generalizations; they're not helpful. And the bolded is blatantly untrue. Both types are known for these qualities.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ Very true.

It's amazing how much misinformation flies around here.

If you want to know whether you're INFP or INFJ, just ask yourself whether your moral beliefs are an end unto themselves or just a means to an external end.

That's all it really takes. INFPs (due to Fi) tend to see INFJs as sociopaths with no real moral fiber; INFJs (due to Fe) tend to see INFPs as too solitary/out of touch with community standards on morality.

Deeper than that, though, the INFJ's Ni finds it a little ridiculous that INFPs think any sort of "objectively correct" morality even exists at all, but that's another story.

 

[Orangey]

That's all it really takes. INFPs (due to Fi) tend to see INFJs as sociopaths with no real moral fiber; INFJs (due to Fe) tend to see INFPs as too solitary/out of touch with community standards on morality.

Deeper than that, though, the INFJ's Ni finds it a little ridiculous that INFPs think any sort of "objectively correct" morality even exists at all, but that's another story.

You know, it's funny how this issue is one that pervades all systematic study of ethics. I have a bioethics class, and we just read a series of articles involving these philosophers arguing with each other about whether we can find an essential set of ethical principles internal to medicine or not. Some think we can, and some think the idea of universal, "essential" ethical principles is absurd. (I'm in the latter camp, BTW).

That's a tangent, but an interesting one nevertheless (to me). I think the distinction is probably the best I've heard so far for Fi vs. Fe.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ But are you of the opinion that objectively correct logical principles exist?

Because that's the Ti equivalent of Fi's belief about objectively correct ethics.

And Ni would tell us that neither is truly objective at all.

 

[Polaris]

Deeper than that, though, the INFJ's Ni finds it a little ridiculous that INFPs think any sort of "objectively correct" morality even exists at all, but that's another story.

Are you sure about this? I can think of a few INFJs who seem very comfortable appealing to God or society for objective ethics. I would expect an Fi-dom to be the one who's more likely to reject that idea, since for an Fi-dom, morals come from within and don't necessarily bear much on the external world, much less exist objectively.

Maybe some other INFs weigh in on this.

 

[PeaceBaby]

To put it simply, one needs to mature in order to determine type. And by that time, one could conclude, what's the point?

What do you define as "mature" - one is always growing and learning, so there is something to be gained through self-evaluation at virtually any vantage point in life.

Personally, I see a great danger in typing too young and placing yourself (or others) within stereotypes that are (ab)used to define yourself or excuse yourself by.

It seems as though I am trying to separate myself from my parents by wanting to be an INFJ. What a sad day for my INFP self.

You should jump up and dance no matter what type you are! You are special!

To illustrate how this relationship works, look at a car's engine. By itself, the engine can do nothing, no matter how much potential it has. In order to work properly, it must have a fuel line attached to it. This fuel line takes in fuel from an outside source, and supplies it to the engine as it needs it. At the same time, the engine itself regulates how much new fuel needs to be supplied to get the maximum possible output. As long as the engine and fuel line do their jobs, the car as a whole will function the way it's supposed to.

Love your use of analogy. I do it all the time.

It's amazing how much misinformation flies around here.

Indeed; but we all wear a pair of glasses that affect our perception of what is. I don't think any of us truly see the world without any lenses influencing our view.

If you want to know whether you're INFP or INFJ, just ask yourself whether your moral beliefs are an end unto themselves or just a means to an external end.

I don't even know what that means myself, so I am not sure if that is ultimately helpful.

That's all it really takes. INFPs (due to Fi) tend to see INFJs as sociopaths with no real moral fiber; INFJs (due to Fe) tend to see INFPs as too solitary/out of touch with community standards on morality.

Deeper than that, though, the INFJ's Ni finds it a little ridiculous that INFPs think any sort of "objectively correct" morality even exists at all, but that's another story.

I disagree, but that's another story.

 

[simulatedworld]

Are you sure about this? I can think of a few INFJs who seem very comfortable appealing to God or society for objective ethics. I would expect an Fi-dom to be the one who's more likely to reject that idea, since for an Fi-dom, morals come from within and don't necessarily bear much on the external world, much less exist objectively.

Maybe some other INFs weigh in on this.

Yes, but note that God is an external source that Ni has arbitrarily made a conscious decision to place faith in. Fe needs an external definition in order to avoid being totally amoral.

Fi doms reject the idea of external morality being imposed on them, but they're laughably stubborn and unyielding whenever anything threatens their arbitrarily imposed/subjectively validated conceptions of ethics. Most are not even remotely ready to accept that there could be anything wrong with these moral conceptions (Fi), but will still outwardly admit that there is in order to keep up an appearance of external flexibility (Ne).

Hence the tragic hypocrisy that all too often results from being an NP: Ne leads INFPs to consider themselves as supreme examples of tolerance and open-mindedness...except when something violates Fi's values, and then anyone who disagrees is a BIGOTED INTOLERANT ASSHOLE AND A TERRIBLE PERSON! "Yeah I'm totally open-minded and ready to accept anyone else's ideas...unless they violate mine! THEN FUCK 'EM!"

Fi isn't really aware of the distinction between subjective/objective ethics because it's so mired in its own internal conception of what is ethical and what is not. Since Fi requires no external validation for these moral beliefs, it ends up drinking its own bathwater through endless subjective self-validation and that's very difficult for outsiders to deal with. (You can see the same thing with INTP's Ti obsession with "logic.")

Indeed; but we all wear a pair of glasses that affect our perception of what is. I don't think any of us truly see the world without any lenses influencing our view.

It's funny how often INFPs will say that and then go right back into dogmatic insistence that their ethical beliefs are the best as soon as anything threatens them (once they get upset.)

I don't even know what that means myself, so I am not sure if that is ultimately helpful.

That's because you're an INFP and you don't understand the idea of ethics coming from anywhere but "the heart." Your entire conception of morality is contingent upon the idea that it comes from within, not from others, which is categorically Fi.

I disagree, but that's another story.

This indicates to me that you don't really fully understand the way INFJs approach morality. They don't have an internal "conscience" of subjectively validated morality the way you do; their moral guidelines require external validation and will change significantly from one cultural context to the next. What is "moral" is merely whatever approach respects people's cultural boundaries in order to get to the desired external goal--not because respecting people's cultural boundaries is inherently "good"; Ni would argue that there is no such thing as inherently "good" or "bad" until we've defined some external goal or priority. To INFJs, morality is subservient to external goals and exists only as a consequence of them. If there were no external goals, there'd be no purpose for morality.

Fi tends to find this disingenuous as it thinks the only true morality is that which comes from within, so changing morality as one changes culture (as Fe does so naturally) is seen as disturbingly inconsistent/not genuinely in touch with "true morality", from the Fi vantage point.

 

[Ginkgo]

For me, morality is instinctual. I realized this today as I read an article online about a little girl who threw a fowl ball back into the field. A huge grin trailed across my face as I said to myself "That was the right thing to do".

However, I don't think that morality is objective. My Ne tells me that there are often too many factors involved to just arbitrarily determine what is "right" and what is "wrong". A VERY basic example of this would be a a situation in which you had to kill somebody in order to save your own hide. Suddenly "Thou shalt not kill" goes out the window. By the way, I don't prescribe to any religious movement. My Ne also tells me that religions like to play the "Us and them" game.

Morality is simply something that I alter as I learn more things. It is a slow evolution of sorts. < Was that a very Te thing to say?

 

[OrangeAppled]

Perhaps one most basic question to determine INFP/INFJ would be:

Do you consider ethics/attaining the most ethical viewpoint possible to be a goal in itself? For INFPs, Fi's morality comes entirely from within and is self-validated according to arbitrary internal standards. Fi wants to possess perfect internal ethical understanding as an end unto itself (even if it doesn't directly apply to anything external...Fi is objectively certain of what is moral and what is not, and neither wants nor requires any external validation for it.)

Or do you consider ethics merely as a means to an end? INFJs use Fe, which needs external validation for its ethical beliefs. For INFJs, morality is merely a means to some other goal, and is defined according to external community standards. There is no rigid internal conception of ethics because ethics exist only to facilitate communication and cooperation between people in order to complete external world goals--Fe requires that it serve an external purpose.

Does any of that help at all?

You have a clear distaste for Fi, which you've admitted to in the past, and it's showing here. This is only going to reinforce the desire to of the OP to be Ni-dom.

Fi is rigid and arbitrary? Fe has external purpose and works towards common goals? But by implication, Fi doesn't? I mean, come on dude, the negative connotations to your word choices and phrasing for Fi is obvious, as are the positive connotations for Fe....no wonder so many INFPs fight the Fi-dom label.

 

[Polaris]

[...]

Yes, we're stubborn. It has nothing to do with thinking that our ethics are valid for other people, though, or at least it doesn't necessarily. The reason we're stubborn is because what we value constitutes our identity and therefore our entire orientation toward life. By telling us to reject those ethics or adapt them to someone's sensitivities, you're telling us to tear everything down and totally reinvent ourselves. But no one can change who they are at a moment's notice; identity is the most deeply ingrained thing of all. In the case of an Fi-dominant, his identity happens to be his personal sense of right and wrong. Do note the word "personal." Fi is an internal reaction more than it is a demand that someone act in a certain way. Sooner than order someone around, we'll withdraw--unless someone offends us so much that Te kicks in and we take action. When this happens, it isn't a judgment about what is objectively right; it's an inability to accept something that we find abhorrent on a personal level.

 

[Ginkgo]

By the way, you guys are helping me learn a lot. I appreciate it!

It's much better to have live feedback to your own questions, rather than just lurking.

Edit: I hope I'm not leading you on a wild goose chase, but as long as you like it, then I'm fine.

 

[Ginkgo]

Yes, but note that God is an external source that Ni has arbitrarily made a conscious decision to place faith in. Fe needs an external definition in order to avoid being totally amoral.

Fi doms reject the idea of external morality being imposed on them, but they're laughably stubborn and unyielding whenever anything threatens their arbitrarily imposed/subjectively validated conceptions of ethics. Most are not even remotely ready to accept that there could be anything wrong with these moral conceptions (Fi), but will still outwardly admit that there is in order to keep up an appearance of external flexibility (Ne).

I can't say that this is me, sorry. Plus, it sounds like a very bad stereotype. Maybe you have had some bad experiences with INFPs?

Morality is both a means to an end AND a personal code for me. I live by it, and I prefer to "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give God what belongs to God." Metaphorically speaking, I respect my own codes and I also respect others' codes out of compassion for them.

In fact, one of the first things I do when I meet a new person is analyze their behavior to see what kind of ethics they have.

I will also usually express my views on the issue. For instance when I saw District 9 with an ENTP buddy of mine, he stated that he wanted to kill the aliens in order to ensure survival of the humans. However, I pointed out that it would be better if the aliens could simply move away, followed by a huge rant about how governmental bureaucracies only desire power.

Both of our viewpoints may or may not have been valid. I knew exactly where he was coming from because I could recall him being interested in the feudal Drow race from D&D. Likewise, he could see where I was coming from because I tend to root for the underdog.

 

[PeaceBaby]

It's funny how often INFPs will say that and then go right back into dogmatic insistence that their ethical beliefs are the best as soon as anything threatens them (once they get upset.)

Where to begin ... you're touchy on this topic; sorry to have upset you.

And really, I find you fascinating.

Tell me what has colored your perceptions of INFP in such a negative, 2-D, rather bitter way. I imagine you will just ignore this request, but if you are brave, tell me who has broken your heart.

 

[Ginkgo]

I took the test once more now that I am fully awake. I was trying to be exceptionally honest with myself.

I can just identify with the "mystical state of realization" so well. It happens so often when I lie in bed when I suddenly know something about someone. It's crazy. Like a piece of a puzzle just materializing. Is this Ni?

Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************** (18.3)
limited use
introverted Sensing (Si) ******************************* (31.5)
good use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ******************************** (32.6)
good use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ***************************************** (41.7)
excellent use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ******************* (19.5)
limited use
introverted Thinking (Ti) **************************** (28.6)
average use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ********************************** (34.7)
good use
introverted Feeling (Fi) ********************************* (33.3)
good use

 

[simulatedworld]

You have a clear distaste for Fi, which you've admitted to in the past, and it's showing here. This is only going to reinforce the desire to of the OP to be Ni-dom.

Fi is rigid and arbitrary? Fe has external purpose and works towards common goals? But by implication, Fi doesn't? I mean, come on dude, the negative connotations to your word choices and phrasing for Fi is obvious, as are the positive connotations for Fe....no wonder so many INFPs fight the Fi-dom label.

Everything I said applies equally to Ti.

I have a distaste for Ji in general, not just Fi.

I just have a little bit better firsthand understanding of Ti than Fi, and nobody ever seems to ask about the differences between Ti and Te. If they did, my response would be very similar to my explanation of Fi/Fe.

Suffice it to say I find Ti equally annoying and constantly wish I didn't have to use it for internal judgments. The fact that it doesn't take in any information from the outside world and also subjectively validates itself is pretty bothersome--Ti is totally unaware that its own conceptions of logic are just as subjective as Fi's conceptions of ethics.

Where to begin ... you're touchy on this topic; sorry to have upset you.

And really, I find you fascinating.

Tell me what has colored your perceptions of INFP in such a negative, 2-D, rather bitter way. I imagine you will just ignore this request, but if you are brave, tell me who has broken your heart.

This entire last post is why Fi bugs the crap out of me.

1) Erroneous assumption that I'm upset/being touchy,
2) Arbitrary assumption that I don't have similarly negative criticisms of other types and other functions (which I do if you'd like to go and check my posting history),
3) Baseless assumption that an INFP has "broken my heart." The most painful relationship failure I've ever had was with an ISTJ; in fact, I've only briefly dated one INFP and I was the one who broke it off,
4) Condescending implication that I will "just ignore" your request,
5) Inability to recognize all these things about yourselves.

Virtually every case of anyone being critical of INFPs/Fi results in INFPs complaining that they're being unfairly criticized or singled out. All generalized criticism of NFPs is interpreted as a personal attack singling them out, which is simply not the case. (Look at the INTP critique I just finished in the ENTP/INTP thread.)

When you look at it in context, I have a lot of criticisms of every type and every function, which I'll be glad to explain if you want to hear it--but you don't, you'd rather just invent an emotional back story and imagine hostility that isn't there, because that makes you more comfortable. So carry on.

P.S.,

6) Total inability to garner any useful information from anything even remotely critical. Once it gets "personal", INFPs completely shut off to learning anything because they're too busy getting offended/imagining emotional back stories for everyone else/erroneously perceiving hostility when it's not there. Why didn't you bother responding to any of my Fi/Fe comparisons? You completely ignored the useful and relevant content to focus on your own unfounded theories of emotional dynamics--that is why you are annoying.

I'm more sensitive to it in real life because the consequences of pissing people off there are much worse than online, but here, I just don't even bother. If it makes you happy, I was abused and brutally beaten and raped daily by INFP parents, bullied by INFP children and then dumped by 12 consecutive INFP women. Happy?

 

[527468]

I think you should consider what your true dominant function is. I don't think comparing Ni with Ne will help. I don't think figuring out if you're a J or P will help. Ni is often confused with Fi and Ti, and visa versa, so you should ask yourself if you resonate more with Fi or Ni.

 

[BlackCat]

I took the test once more now that I am fully awake. I was trying to be exceptionally honest with myself.

I can just identify with the "mystical state of realization" so well. It happens so often when I lie in bed when I suddenly know something about someone. It's crazy. Like a piece of a puzzle just materializing. Is this Ni?

Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************** (18.3)
limited use
introverted Sensing (Si) ******************************* (31.5)
good use
extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ******************************** (32.6)
good use
introverted Intuiting (Ni) ***************************************** (41.7)
excellent use
extraverted Thinking (Te) ******************* (19.5)
limited use
introverted Thinking (Ti) **************************** (28.6)
average use
extraverted Feeling (Fe) ********************************** (34.7)
good use
introverted Feeling (Fi) ********************************* (33.3)
good use

When you were INFX I pretty much immediately knew you were INFJ... it's in your posting style. Why do you think you're an INFP? Your posting style is almost identical to the INFJ way.

 

[Thalassa]

Where to begin ... you're touchy on this topic; sorry to have upset you.

And really, I find you fascinating.

Tell me what has colored your perceptions of INFP in such a negative, 2-D, rather bitter way. I imagine you will just ignore this request, but if you are brave, tell me who has broken your heart.

Simulated World is very touchy about Fi. Repeatedly. Over and over again.

So you very well may have a point.