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  1. #51
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Perhaps one most basic question to determine INFP/INFJ would be:

    Do you consider ethics/attaining the most ethical viewpoint possible to be a goal in itself? For INFPs, Fi's morality comes entirely from within and is self-validated according to arbitrary internal standards. Fi wants to possess perfect internal ethical understanding as an end unto itself (even if it doesn't directly apply to anything external...Fi is objectively certain of what is moral and what is not, and neither wants nor requires any external validation for it.)

    Or do you consider ethics merely as a means to an end? INFJs use Fe, which needs external validation for its ethical beliefs. For INFJs, morality is merely a means to some other goal, and is defined according to external community standards. There is no rigid internal conception of ethics because ethics exist only to facilitate communication and cooperation between people in order to complete external world goals--Fe requires that it serve an external purpose.

    Does any of that help at all?
    You have a clear distaste for Fi, which you've admitted to in the past, and it's showing here. This is only going to reinforce the desire to of the OP to be Ni-dom.

    Fi is rigid and arbitrary? Fe has external purpose and works towards common goals? But by implication, Fi doesn't? I mean, come on dude, the negative connotations to your word choices and phrasing for Fi is obvious, as are the positive connotations for Fe....no wonder so many INFPs fight the Fi-dom label.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #52
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    [...]
    Yes, we're stubborn. It has nothing to do with thinking that our ethics are valid for other people, though, or at least it doesn't necessarily. The reason we're stubborn is because what we value constitutes our identity and therefore our entire orientation toward life. By telling us to reject those ethics or adapt them to someone's sensitivities, you're telling us to tear everything down and totally reinvent ourselves. But no one can change who they are at a moment's notice; identity is the most deeply ingrained thing of all. In the case of an Fi-dominant, his identity happens to be his personal sense of right and wrong. Do note the word "personal." Fi is an internal reaction more than it is a demand that someone act in a certain way. Sooner than order someone around, we'll withdraw--unless someone offends us so much that Te kicks in and we take action. When this happens, it isn't a judgment about what is objectively right; it's an inability to accept something that we find abhorrent on a personal level.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  3. #53
    Ginkgo
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    By the way, you guys are helping me learn a lot. I appreciate it!

    It's much better to have live feedback to your own questions, rather than just lurking.

    Edit: I hope I'm not leading you on a wild goose chase, but as long as you like it, then I'm fine.

  4. #54
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Yes, but note that God is an external source that Ni has arbitrarily made a conscious decision to place faith in. Fe needs an external definition in order to avoid being totally amoral.

    Fi doms reject the idea of external morality being imposed on them, but they're laughably stubborn and unyielding whenever anything threatens their arbitrarily imposed/subjectively validated conceptions of ethics. Most are not even remotely ready to accept that there could be anything wrong with these moral conceptions (Fi), but will still outwardly admit that there is in order to keep up an appearance of external flexibility (Ne).
    I can't say that this is me, sorry. Plus, it sounds like a very bad stereotype. Maybe you have had some bad experiences with INFPs?

    Morality is both a means to an end AND a personal code for me. I live by it, and I prefer to "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give God what belongs to God." Metaphorically speaking, I respect my own codes and I also respect others' codes out of compassion for them.

    In fact, one of the first things I do when I meet a new person is analyze their behavior to see what kind of ethics they have.

    I will also usually express my views on the issue. For instance when I saw District 9 with an ENTP buddy of mine, he stated that he wanted to kill the aliens in order to ensure survival of the humans. However, I pointed out that it would be better if the aliens could simply move away, followed by a huge rant about how governmental bureaucracies only desire power.

    Both of our viewpoints may or may not have been valid. I knew exactly where he was coming from because I could recall him being interested in the feudal Drow race from D&D. Likewise, he could see where I was coming from because I tend to root for the underdog.

  5. #55
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    It's funny how often INFPs will say that and then go right back into dogmatic insistence that their ethical beliefs are the best as soon as anything threatens them (once they get upset.)
    Where to begin ... you're touchy on this topic; sorry to have upset you.

    And really, I find you fascinating.

    Tell me what has colored your perceptions of INFP in such a negative, 2-D, rather bitter way. I imagine you will just ignore this request, but if you are brave, tell me who has broken your heart.

  6. #56
    Ginkgo
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    I took the test once more now that I am fully awake. I was trying to be exceptionally honest with myself.

    I can just identify with the "mystical state of realization" so well. It happens so often when I lie in bed when I suddenly know something about someone. It's crazy. Like a piece of a puzzle just materializing. Is this Ni?

    Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
    extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************** (18.3)
    limited use
    introverted Sensing (Si) ******************************* (31.5)
    good use
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ******************************** (32.6)
    good use
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) ***************************************** (41.7)
    excellent use
    extraverted Thinking (Te) ******************* (19.5)
    limited use
    introverted Thinking (Ti) **************************** (28.6)
    average use
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) ********************************** (34.7)
    good use
    introverted Feeling (Fi) ********************************* (33.3)
    good use

  7. #57
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    You have a clear distaste for Fi, which you've admitted to in the past, and it's showing here. This is only going to reinforce the desire to of the OP to be Ni-dom.

    Fi is rigid and arbitrary? Fe has external purpose and works towards common goals? But by implication, Fi doesn't? I mean, come on dude, the negative connotations to your word choices and phrasing for Fi is obvious, as are the positive connotations for Fe....no wonder so many INFPs fight the Fi-dom label.
    Everything I said applies equally to Ti.

    I have a distaste for Ji in general, not just Fi.

    I just have a little bit better firsthand understanding of Ti than Fi, and nobody ever seems to ask about the differences between Ti and Te. If they did, my response would be very similar to my explanation of Fi/Fe.

    Suffice it to say I find Ti equally annoying and constantly wish I didn't have to use it for internal judgments. The fact that it doesn't take in any information from the outside world and also subjectively validates itself is pretty bothersome--Ti is totally unaware that its own conceptions of logic are just as subjective as Fi's conceptions of ethics.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Where to begin ... you're touchy on this topic; sorry to have upset you.

    And really, I find you fascinating.

    Tell me what has colored your perceptions of INFP in such a negative, 2-D, rather bitter way. I imagine you will just ignore this request, but if you are brave, tell me who has broken your heart.
    This entire last post is why Fi bugs the crap out of me.

    1) Erroneous assumption that I'm upset/being touchy,
    2) Arbitrary assumption that I don't have similarly negative criticisms of other types and other functions (which I do if you'd like to go and check my posting history),
    3) Baseless assumption that an INFP has "broken my heart." The most painful relationship failure I've ever had was with an ISTJ; in fact, I've only briefly dated one INFP and I was the one who broke it off,
    4) Condescending implication that I will "just ignore" your request,
    5) Inability to recognize all these things about yourselves.

    Virtually every case of anyone being critical of INFPs/Fi results in INFPs complaining that they're being unfairly criticized or singled out. All generalized criticism of NFPs is interpreted as a personal attack singling them out, which is simply not the case. (Look at the INTP critique I just finished in the ENTP/INTP thread.)

    When you look at it in context, I have a lot of criticisms of every type and every function, which I'll be glad to explain if you want to hear it--but you don't, you'd rather just invent an emotional back story and imagine hostility that isn't there, because that makes you more comfortable. So carry on.

    P.S.,

    6) Total inability to garner any useful information from anything even remotely critical. Once it gets "personal", INFPs completely shut off to learning anything because they're too busy getting offended/imagining emotional back stories for everyone else/erroneously perceiving hostility when it's not there. Why didn't you bother responding to any of my Fi/Fe comparisons? You completely ignored the useful and relevant content to focus on your own unfounded theories of emotional dynamics--that is why you are annoying.

    I'm more sensitive to it in real life because the consequences of pissing people off there are much worse than online, but here, I just don't even bother. If it makes you happy, I was abused and brutally beaten and raped daily by INFP parents, bullied by INFP children and then dumped by 12 consecutive INFP women. Happy?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #58
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    I think you should consider what your true dominant function is. I don't think comparing Ni with Ne will help. I don't think figuring out if you're a J or P will help. Ni is often confused with Fi and Ti, and visa versa, so you should ask yourself if you resonate more with Fi or Ni.

  9. #59
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystic Tater View Post
    I took the test once more now that I am fully awake. I was trying to be exceptionally honest with myself.

    I can just identify with the "mystical state of realization" so well. It happens so often when I lie in bed when I suddenly know something about someone. It's crazy. Like a piece of a puzzle just materializing. Is this Ni?

    Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
    extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************** (18.3)
    limited use
    introverted Sensing (Si) ******************************* (31.5)
    good use
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ******************************** (32.6)
    good use
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) ***************************************** (41.7)
    excellent use
    extraverted Thinking (Te) ******************* (19.5)
    limited use
    introverted Thinking (Ti) **************************** (28.6)
    average use
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) ********************************** (34.7)
    good use
    introverted Feeling (Fi) ********************************* (33.3)
    good use
    When you were INFX I pretty much immediately knew you were INFJ... it's in your posting style. Why do you think you're an INFP? Your posting style is almost identical to the INFJ way.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Where to begin ... you're touchy on this topic; sorry to have upset you.

    And really, I find you fascinating.

    Tell me what has colored your perceptions of INFP in such a negative, 2-D, rather bitter way. I imagine you will just ignore this request, but if you are brave, tell me who has broken your heart.
    Simulated World is very touchy about Fi. Repeatedly. Over and over again.

    So you very well may have a point.

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