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  1. #21
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    I think the drive to serve other people are deeply related to Fe... basically I think Athenian is trying to see how readily you use Fe. The example you give for putting other people's needs ahead of your own would be Fe.

    What about values? How important are they to you? Also how do you feel when your own crashes with those of a person you care a lot about?
    Most of the values that are important to me (love, liberty, individuality, honesty/authenticity, and fairness are the ones that easily come to mind) are things that don't tend to cause a lot of conflict among friends, but sometimes my beliefs on liberty do cause disagreements, and there are also cases where a friend will highly value something that to me is superficial (social traditions etc - stuff I don't outright oppose on any value basis, but seem highly overvalued to me).

    First, I would try to understand how and why they reached the view they did by giving them the opportunity to "try and convince me" (its pretty rare for them to change my mind if its something I feel strongly about, but in their attempt to do so, I gain an understanding of where they are coming from and also reassure them that their opinion is worth hearing). I may question them in a Socratic method while they explain their view, this is both for me to better understand them and to make sure they have considered the same things I would in reaching such a conclusion. If it becomes clear that neither of us will change our minds, then I simply "agree to disagree" and leave it at that (but I do file away their view in memory and keep an eye out for moments that might be able to put their view in a new perspective either for me or them).

    Basically, unless its something that really bothers me, I don't want to make someone feel their view is "wrong" but I do want to challenge their view and make sure it is well thought out and that they believe it because they reached the conclusion on their own and that they are comfortable with their decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tovlo
    I'd like to ask you two questions:

    1. How would you care for a person in deep distress?
    It depends on the cause of the distress, but as a generality, I would offer to be an ear for them to talk to and offer to help with other things if I thought it would help. I know the value of "just having someone to talk to" in times like that, but also recognize that in certain cases, you just want to be left alone but its good to know that if/when you change your mind there will be someone to listen to you.

    2. What aspect of your personality has been recognized over the course of your life as the source of your greatest achievements?
    Hmmm, I'm really not achievement oriented so thats a bit of a difficult question. In a traditional sense of what people might notice and view as accomplishments, my analytical and problem solving skills tend to get the most notice by others, but the satisfaction gained through those acts is minor. I suppose it goes back to doing things for others thats what gives me a sense of satisfaction. In my own mind, if I can do something for a friend that makes even a minor difference to them thats more of accomplishment to me than the things others are likely to notice - finding a creative way to personalize something I make or buy as a gift for someone would be a good example of something that would give me a sense of accomplishment.

  2. #22
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Hmmmm.... I think your initial assessment is correct. You're an INFp.... very slight preference for P over J. Oh... and that was my Ni working. I would rather not try explaining why.

  3. #23
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Tenebrous - I can relate to you in the fact that I think about this stuff just as much as you do, and I think we 'think' very similarly, because you analyze all of it quite a bit, to the depth that I do!! :-)

    I just took both tests (first one made me laugh...ISFP? Well, I definitely relate to the artistic streak, and I acknowledge my Se is pretty good...but seriously, ISFP?? :-). I think all of this merely confirms that a lot of my preferences have become pretty muted over time...I don't seem terribly extreme in any of them! I think this is why I've started falling back on the 'what was I like as a kid' thing, to ultimately decide what I am. (I also sometimes wonder whether mbti loses its meaning/practicality for anyone who isn't too extreme.) :-) Shall I change my type to IxFx now??? lol. Nah, I'll stick to INFJ, since as a kid I wasn't like *anyone* my age (I thought almost everyone was petty/superficial and 'mean'), wasn't part of any group (didn't fit in with any of the cliques - not even the chess team/science club- type kids!), was ultra-sensitive, always very organized and an excellent student, took things seriously, and liked to please others - I suppose NOT pleasing others didn't even enter my brain!!

    Oh, sorry, I know you wanted feedback, but I'm instead adding my own info because I think we're exploring similar things regarding ourselves.

    I'll leave the feedback to the experts on this forum. :-)

    -----------------------------------
    First test that others have posted isn't terribly accurate --

    Cognitive Process Level of Development (Preference, Skill and Frequency of Use)
    extraverted Sensing (Se) ****************************** (30.4)
    good use
    introverted Sensing (Si) ****************************** (30.4)
    good use
    extraverted Intuiting (Ne) ***************************** (29.7)
    average use
    introverted Intuiting (Ni) ********************************* (33.5)
    good use
    extraverted Thinking (Te) ******************* (19.5)
    limited use
    introverted Thinking (Ti) ***************************** (29.3)
    average use
    extraverted Feeling (Fe) ******************** (20.4)
    limited use
    introverted Feeling (Fi) ********************************************** (46.8)
    excellent use
    Summary Analysis of Profile
    By focusing on the strongest configuration of cognitive processes, your pattern of responses most closely matches individuals of this type: ISFP
    Lead (Dominant) Process
    Introverted Feeling (Fi): Staying true to who you really are. Paying close attention to your personal identity, values and beliefs. Checking with your conscience. Choosing behavior congruent with what is important to you.

    Support (Auxilliary) Process
    Extraverted Sensing (Se): Immersing in the present context. Responding naturally to everything tangible you detect through your senses. Checking with what your gut instincts say. Testing limits and take risks for big rewards.
    If these cognitive processes don't fit well then consider these types: ESFP, or INFP

    -----------------------------------
    2nd test that INTJMom posted -

    ISTJ
    53%
    ISFJ
    58%
    INFJ
    62%
    INTJ
    58%
    ISTP
    46%
    ISFP
    56%
    INFP
    58%
    INTP
    49%
    ESTP
    46%
    ESFP
    50%
    ENFP
    55%
    ENTP
    50%
    ESTJ
    50%
    ESFJ
    59%
    ENFJ
    62%
    ENTJ
    52%

  4. #24
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenebrousReflection View Post
    It depends on the cause of the distress, but as a generality, I would offer to be an ear for them to talk to and offer to help with other things if I thought it would help.
    I wonder when you say "offer to help with other things if I thought it would help", what do you mean by that?

    What kind of help would you offer?

    In a traditional sense of what people might notice and view as accomplishments, my analytical and problem solving skills tend to get the most notice by others, but the satisfaction gained through those acts is minor.
    Would you be able to describe a typical scenario where these skills brought you appreciation and notice by others?

    Have your analytical and problem solving skills brought you notice from others throughout your life or is it a more current trend?
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  5. #25
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenebrousReflection View Post
    Hmmm, I'm really not achievement oriented so thats a bit of a difficult question. In a traditional sense of what people might notice and view as accomplishments, my analytical and problem solving skills tend to get the most notice by others, but the satisfaction gained through those acts is minor. I suppose it goes back to doing things for others thats what gives me a sense of satisfaction. In my own mind, if I can do something for a friend that makes even a minor difference to them thats more of accomplishment to me than the things others are likely to notice - finding a creative way to personalize something I make or buy as a gift for someone would be a good example of something that would give me a sense of accomplishment.
    I'll add that one of the biggest differences between myself and an NT is the drive for competence. I share the desire to understand things, but I don't care about being wrong, or being competent in a given situation. If my idea was wrong, I want it to get corrected, and I'm willing to put it out there to be corrected. I'll still use my understanding to deal with things, however. In other words, my self-image is separate from my ability to understand things, but I still want to understand them. Although I do consider it a loss to myself if I hurt another person, and don't like it when other people are hurt, and try to prevent that from happening. I also like making people feel better. That's my main F quality.

    Anyway... my results on the second test were:

    INTJ 76%
    INFJ/INTP 72%
    INFP 64%
    ISTP 62%
    ENTP 58%
    ISTJ/ISFP/ENFP/ENTJ 54%
    ISFJ 50%
    ENFJ 46%
    ESTJ 44%
    ESTP/ESFJ 36%
    ESFP 32%

  6. #26
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    I wonder when you say "offer to help with other things if I thought it would help", what do you mean by that?

    What kind of help would you offer?
    Situational based on what I perceive their needs to be and what talents I may have that could be put to use. The only specific one that comes to mind (which was about 5 or 6 years ago) was having a classmate that was working and going to school at the same time and struggling in several classes, so I offered to help however I could - it wasn't exactly tutoring, but I wasn't doing their assignment either, I was trying to help them understand the material and complete the assignments at the same time.

    Would you be able to describe a typical scenario where these skills brought you appreciation and notice by others?

    Have your analytical and problem solving skills brought you notice from others throughout your life or is it a more current trend?
    I have a lot of natural curiosity, so whenever I am exposed to a new system, I try to figure out how it works and understand it as best I can (the analytical part). When things go wrong, I tend to be the first person to be able to track down the problem and can often find a work around for it (the problem solving part). Most of the time, my first guess is the right one (Ni?) and when its not I resort to trying to think of possible causes and solutions (I think I'm using Te or Ti to find and identify the problem and Ne to solve it).

    I enjoy playing board games and strategy games, and I do the same thing there. I observe and learn how the system works then once I'm comfortable with my understanding of the rules/mechanics of the system, I try to think of unexpected things to do with it that will keep my opponents wondering what I'm doing. In a case like that, I'm analyzing the rules and the problem solving is finding a way to use the rules to accomplish unexpected results (I don't care about winning so much as confusing my opponents, but sometimes victory is a result anyway )

    I think my curious and analytical nature is a lot more noticeable then my problem solving since problem solving only comes up when there is a problem, but my ability to analyze and understand things is more apparent because I find inconstancies and/or flaws that others don't see and can also sometimes find alternative/unexpected ways to use things. I think this may be Ne working subconsciously (at least it makes sense in it being the auxiliary process for an INFP and I'm solving problems by asking "what results will xyz action bring" and doing that until I have a solution instead of approaching it from a "this is the problem, whats the best way to solve it" that Te would probably use).

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200
    I'll add that one of the biggest differences between myself and an NT is the drive for competence. I share the desire to understand things, but I don't care about being wrong, or being competent in a given situation. If my idea was wrong, I want it to get corrected, and I'm willing to put it out there to be corrected. I'll still use my understanding to deal with things, however. In other words, my self-image is separate from my ability to understand things, but I still want to understand them. Although I do consider it a loss to myself if I hurt another person, and don't like it when other people are hurt, and try to prevent that from happening. I also like making people feel better. That's my main F quality.
    That sounds a lot like me. Being right/competent isn't a goal, when it happens, its the side effect of wanting to understand things and storing that information to be used as needed later.

    Having concern for the feelings of others is more subconscious to me. Unless I know something specific will bother someone, I don't make an attempt to alter how I communicate with them on the basis of avoiding hurting them. I may not even know its happening, but I think its probable that I may occasionally end up hurting or offending others through well intentioned criticism because I value understanding and clarity and someone else might rather be wrong and not know it than be questioned about it.

    This goes back to earlier questions, but to me, making someone aware that I am there if they want to talk and giving them alone time if they don't want to talk is the approach I most often take when someone is upset. Unless I know specific things that I expect to work to cheer someone up, I am just as likely to make them more aggravated if I try to cheer them up without understating them and the situation that brought them to that point.

  7. #27
    Senior Member tovlo's Avatar
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    I'm going to cast a vote for INTP just to be a contrarian.

    I still weight your own self-assessment toward INFP more heavily than anything I noted, but given your responses to my questions, I felt more of an INTP pattern forming.

    1. The second question I asked was to try to guess at what your dominant or "hero" function was. As you described I began to see Ti forming. I recognized much of what you described in myself, but I see it at work in me in a later stage of my processing phase (tertiary in an INFJ). You described it as the first step in your processing. Also as you described, you noted you first analyze and then move into a brainstorming of possibilities mode which I agree would be Ne and would be the secondary function of an INTP.

    2. The first question I asked was to try to guess at your secondary or "good parent" function. That didn't feel so clear to me. I almost had an Si sense, but I can't pin down why except that perhaps there was a practical hands-on or concrete formation to how you would choose to enact your help. I considered that with your instinct being to listen first, followed up with brainstorming about what might relieve a person's burden, and then offering practical or hands on support, it does potentially reflect a Ti, Ne, Si, Fe flow.

    3. I know very well an INTP who has many similarities with the way you describe your experience. I, of course, can only observe externally and know what is shared with me about their experience, but I had access to their internal world in a way I believe gives me a good sense. They were a very good listener with deep caring for others. When providing help to another person, they tended toward listening and then providing acts of service to lighten a load or brighten a moment in a similar way to what you describe.

    I haven't known many other INTP's, but my experience with this particular INTP leads me to consider that the NF traits you identified with are not excluded from the realm of how an NT can experience and present.

    Consider too that your best fit natural type might be one thing, but that you may have access to excellent use of other functions through maturation or stressful life circumstances.

    But I will say, if you ultimately feel INFP based on your own comprehensive analysis and sense, I find that the most solid measure.

    (Besides, I mostly don't know what I'm talking about. I just felt obligated to complete with a type vote after wading in with my questions. )
    "We don't see things as they are,
    we see things as we are."
    ...Anais Nin

  8. #28
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    ...That being said... I think you're INFx. Let me ask you a question:

    Are you more focused on other's feelings towards you in a situation, or your own feelings about things in general?
    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Since you say you used to neglect your own needs, does that mean it was more natural for you to focus on other people's perception of you? In other words, does what people think of your actions usually impact your self-image or choices much, or did it used to?
    TR, I don't recall you answering these questions, and I was quite interested in reading your answers. Did I miss it somewhere?

    By the way, I am leaning toward INFJ.

  9. #29
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tovlo View Post
    I'm going to cast a vote for INTP just to be a contrarian.

    I still weight your own self-assessment toward INFP more heavily than anything I noted, but given your responses to my questions, I felt more of an INTP pattern forming.
    As far as thinking like one, I'd very much agree with that assessment, but the problem comes in the form of the core values and beliefs of an NT vs an NF. I feel like I often think like an NT, but I have the values and beleifs of an NF, so I think what comes acress as Ti, may be Fi working with Ne to produce similar results (I don't recall where I read that theroy that Fi can look like Ti but it made sense to me and fits my hypothesis)

    1. The second question I asked was to try to guess at what your dominant or "hero" function was. As you described I began to see Ti forming. I recognized much of what you described in myself, but I see it at work in me in a later stage of my processing phase (tertiary in an INFJ). You described it as the first step in your processing. Also as you described, you noted you first analyze and then move into a brainstorming of possibilities mode which I agree would be Ne and would be the secondary function of an INTP.
    Hmmm, interestign observation, but how would Fi show up as a noticable heroic function? The question was what would be noticable to others, and that implies extroversion of action. The way I see it, Fi or Fe often motivate me to take actions, but the actual actions I take will probably need some of the other functions to actualize. For somethign to have meanign to me, F has to be engaged in some form, and those are the things I put my heart into but don't get much notice/recognition. The T stuff I do is because I'm either responding to events or using T in the service of F by interacting with N or S. I believe I adapted to life be taking on traits of NTs because most of my friends are and have been NTs of some kind (and I've never been as good at most of the same math/science pursuits as them, but still good enough to fit in with them more than most other types). I guess the question about the heroic function woudl be is it what motivates you to take action, or what gets the results?

    2. The first question I asked was to try to guess at your secondary or "good parent" function. That didn't feel so clear to me. I almost had an Si sense, but I can't pin down why except that perhaps there was a practical hands-on or concrete formation to how you would choose to enact your help. I considered that with your instinct being to listen first, followed up with brainstorming about what might relieve a person's burden, and then offering practical or hands on support, it does potentially reflect a Ti, Ne, Si, Fe flow.
    This is where motivation and reason may be more important. When I help someone, I essentialy want to help them help themselves. to be the catalyst to them either growing or overcoming their problems, but if there are external problems that that I think I can help with (the more concrete S type things) I will also try to help them with those as well. If a friend were to be in an accident that resulted in difficulty doing household tasks, I would do what I could to help them out knowing that the problem was concrete, so the solution would also be a concrete one. On the other hand, if a friend were dealing with depression, then I would want to be there for them and and spend time with them so they knew they had someone to turn to when they needed/wanted someone to talk to. In the case of concrete problems and solutions, its simply my desire to help and be useful thats reacting to the situation, in the case of abstract issues, its empathy thats motivating me.

    3. I know very well an INTP who has many similarities with the way you describe your experience. I, of course, can only observe externally and know what is shared with me about their experience, but I had access to their internal world in a way I believe gives me a good sense. They were a very good listener with deep caring for others. When providing help to another person, they tended toward listening and then providing acts of service to lighten a load or brighten a moment in a similar way to what you describe.

    I haven't known many other INTP's, but my experience with this particular INTP leads me to consider that the NF traits you identified with are not excluded from the realm of how an NT can experience and present.
    There are things in INTP that seem a lot like me, even moreso than some things in INFP or INFJ, but there are things that I clearly disagree with that seem important to INTPs as well. And some of the important things seem like they could easily be shared with INFP just that Fi would replace Ti in the processes which in many ways makes more sense to how I see myself.

    In particular, I strongly identify with the INTPs desire to understand things and natural attraction to complex things, but I strongly disagree with the Knowledge is everything attitude that seems very important to them. Yes, I want to understand the how and why of anything that evokes my curiosity, but I think the curisoity that is motivatign that is more feeling than thinking. I may be using thinking to understand things, but feelign is what motivates me to want to understand. This may be inaccurate, but I think INTPs want to know things and I want to understand things. I'm not sure which type that distinction represents, but I think it represents the difference between valuing knowledge (NT) and valuing meaning (NF).

    I think for an INTP, their first reaction may be to offer solutions and offer acts of service" but to me, my first priority is to "be there for them" and then offer to help or advise only if I see a clear need or it is requested of me.


    Consider too that your best fit natural type might be one thing, but that you may have access to excellent use of other functions through maturation or stressful life circumstances.

    But I will say, if you ultimately feel INFP based on your own comprehensive analysis and sense, I find that the most solid measure.
    In any possible case I've consiered, I think that would be a factor to consider. I believe I adapted to the world by thinking more and feeling less to get by with minimal conflict and judgement of my emotions but retained parts of my core values in the sense of what motivates me to do things and what things are important to me. I won't completely exclude NT options, but they just dont make sense to me as far as comparing whats important to me vs what NTs value and strive for, but those values are a nearly pefect match to the NF temperament. The INFJ / INFP side is still a lot more complicated and I see a lot of myself in both descriptions but it comes down to feeling like Fe is a lot less developed in me than Fi (but I have to consider that it may have been circumstances that caused that and it should be the other way around too).

  10. #30
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by athenian200
    ...That being said... I think you're INFx. Let me ask you a question:

    Are you more focused on other's feelings towards you in a situation, or your own feelings about things in general?
    Perhaps an order of importance would be appropriate to answer the question

    Feelings of close friends > My own feelings > Feelings of everyone else

    In all cases, I am concerned with the potential effect (both intended and unintended) my words and actions may have on others and in general want to have a positive effect when I can, when there is a potential conflict, the above order of priority takes effect.

    Originally Posted by athenian200
    Since you say you used to neglect your own needs, does that mean it was more natural for you to focus on other people's perception of you? In other words, does what people think of your actions usually impact your self-image or choices much, or did it used to?
    I would not say it affects my self image with the exception of the views of friends and those who's opinions I have come to value. To use the above example, I would say that my priorities used to be different.

    Feelings of close friends > Feelings of casual/distant friends > Feelings of acquaintances > My own feelings > Feelings of everyone else

    I used to go out of my way to do things for anyone that I knew even a little but if I thought I could do something for them, but it was more from my desire to be helpful than my desire to be viewed favorably. The following quote is regarding INFP development and how Fi might show up at a young age.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.infjorinfp.com/docs/Individuation.htm
    1st period - 6 to 12 years - The dominant function for an INFP is introverted Feeling.

    As a small child you were intent on pleasing others, and you were probably an obedient and considerate member of the family. Since your feelings were directed toward the inner world, you were likely shy and inclined to spend time by yourself. Your desire to be helpful may have led you to disregard your own interests simply to be of service and to win praise. You may have developed a delicate conscience, leading perhaps to feelings of guilt over inconsequential matters. And you may have felt an obligation to keep harmony in the family, taking responsibility for any failure to maintain it.
    The parts in bold are what I consider to be a good description of neglecting myself for others that extended well beyond childhood.

    TR, I don't recall you answering these questions, and I was quite interested in reading your answers. Did I miss it somewhere?

    By the way, I am leaning toward INFJ.
    I may not have answered them directly, but I remember thinking about the questions, so I'll try to answer again (above)...

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