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  1. #61
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    OK. But still, since he trained himself that way, it doesn't seem like a natural preference, but rather conscious development.
    Ok, but then if he behaves and thinks like an F user, whether naturally or training himself that way, and no "INTP-esque" personality is expressed, what is his true personality?

    This is awkwardly worded and I'll probably edit it later, once I can find a better way to say it.



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    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Ok, but then if he behaves and thinks like an F user, whether naturally or training himself that way, and no "INTP-esque" personality is expressed, what is his true personality?

    This is awkwardly worded and I'll probably edit it later, once I can find a better way to say it.
    I definitely think I use T more than F. I just can speak in F language really well -- I've integrated emotion and psychology into my conceptual web.

    I'm also much more in touch with the nature of my own value judgments because I've brought them to consciousness in therapy. It doesn't mean I fixate on them, it just means I'm aware of them. This would explain why my Fe looks so buffed up, even though most of the social analysis I do is T.

  3. #63
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Ok, but then if he behaves and thinks like an F user, whether naturally or training himself that way, and no "INTP-esque" personality is expressed, what is his true personality?
    How does he behave and think like an F user? (and as he keeps aying, he has trained himself to use F more).

    Another thing I may not have mentioned is that he seems Informing in communication, where INFJ is directive. He doesn't give off those directing NJ vibes at all. He seems like a Behind the Scenes type rather than Chart the Course, and is very similar to us.
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    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    He doesn't give off those directing NJ vibes at all. He seems like a Behind the Scenes type rather than Chart the Course, and is very similar to us.
    Really? That is the first thing I noticed about him, and is a part of the INxJ intensity I mentioned previously.

  5. #65
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I definitely think I use T more than F. I just can speak in F language really well -- I've integrated emotion and psychology into my conceptual web.

    I'm also much more in touch with the nature of my own value judgments because I've brought them to consciousness in therapy. It doesn't mean I fixate on them, it just means I'm aware of them. This would explain why my Fe looks so buffed up, even though most of the social analysis I do is T.
    If this is truly the case, I really have no further argument. INTP it is, with highly developed Fe.

    In which case, I have no idea how you get Ti/Fe to coexist. They are so mutually exclusive I cannot reconcile their use in concert. It's all or nothing for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    How does he behave and think like an F user? (and as he keeps aying, he has trained himself to use F more).
    "Behave" in terms of how his decisions and judgments manifest themselves externally with a decidedly "F" tilt. Had I not known anything about his INTPness and saw that he makes decisions that take the emotional and ethical temperature of the group into account, I would type him as Fe user, because that's what I'd see. He is saying that internally, that is not the case.



  6. #66
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Ti and Fe work on the same tandem (though as I've been saying recently, we have to be careful going too far with Beebe's concepts of the functions beyond the first two). Still, whatever circumstances may trigger the Anima complex, it is still something that the ego deep down inside thinks will complete it, as was described to me. So it is not impossible for it to be showing up like that.
    And that's assuming what people have seen is even some "process" playing a particular role. I'm not sure of the instance of "take the emotional and ethical temperature of the group into account" being referred to is, but anyone can do that at times without either "preferring Fe", or being in some particular "archetype" mode the function falls into if not preferred.

    Here's where I discuss this:
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post748446

    I even use Evan as an example. Everyone agrees he is an introvert. So in Jung's original conception, we would say his preferred orientation or "comfort zone" is the inner world or subjective factor. His dominant function seems to be Thinking, more than Feeling or even iNtuition (which would be the dominant for the other type people think he is). iNtuition would be next, which would align it with the opposite orientation (external), and this is what he looks like to me. Beyond those two, the functions are not really "differentiated" unless they come up in certain complexes. What most of these "typing people" discussions have been is typing people based on the complexes (including negatively, like saying Feeling can't be inferior or lower if it comes up "too much"). It may work for some, but I have seen that it causes a lot of confusion for most, because there is a lot of ambiguity outside the preferred functions. And it is better to realize we can use them all without forcing them into some role or questioning the type.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Really? That is the first thing I noticed about him, and is a part of the INxJ intensity I mentioned previously.
    OK, with your communication, I get the NJ vibes I'm referring to. He always seemed more like NP, especially the way he handles possible explanations of the theories. There's more of a kind of "openness". You two seem to communicate differently, though it is very subtle and hard to completely explain (and without sounding insulting to one side, as possibly with terms such as "openness". But it's just a style of interaction difference). It's both the Ni/Ne and directing/informing influence. (And "directing" does not always mean literally barking out orders).
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  7. #67
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    OK, with your communication, I get the NJ vibes I'm referring to. He always seemed more like NP, especially the way he handles possible explanations of the theories. There's more of a kind of "openness". You two seem to communicate differently, though it is very subtle and hard to completely explain (and without sounding insulting to one side, as possibly with terms such as "openness". But it's just a style of interaction difference). It's both the Ni/Ne and directing/informing influence. (And "directing" does not always mean literally barking out orders).
    Is it possible that because he is using Ti secondarily instead of Fe (as an INFJ in Ni-Ti loop would), this seems to you as being NP? I've seen Ne types that lack this "openness" you're suggesting.

  8. #68
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    If this is truly the case, I really have no further argument. INTP it is, with highly developed Fe.

    In which case, I have no idea how you get Ti/Fe to coexist. They are so mutually exclusive I cannot reconcile their use in concert. It's all or nothing for me.
    Well, while I thought I was INFJ, I always claimed that I use Ti more than Fe. Fe for me just acts as a way to implement my moral code -- it's almost like it just blindly applies these rules I've thought through. It's kind of odd and obsessional.

    "Behave" in terms of how his decisions and judgments manifest themselves externally with a decidedly "F" tilt. Had I not known anything about his INTPness and saw that he makes decisions that take the emotional and ethical temperature of the group into account, I would type him as Fe user, because that's what I'd see. He is saying that internally, that is not the case.
    See, I don't actually think I show that much F. On here, I engage in ethical debate a good amount, but it's all about assumptions and frameworks, not about ideas being "bad" or whatever.

    Meh. I probably would have looked much more INTP at 16. My first GF was ENFJ, and I was fascinated by her social awareness -- I decided I would start focusing on development of those skills within myself. I've also been in therapy pretty much since then, so I've had time set aside every week to reconcile my T and F.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Is it possible that because he is using Ti secondarily instead of Fe (as an INFJ in Ni-Ti loop would), this seems to you as being NP? I've seen Ne types that lack this "openness" you're suggesting.
    Right. I could come up with logically consistent arguments for INFJ or INTP -- that would be the INFJ argument. I'm just leaning towards the INTP argument a bit more right now, and I think INTP actually has more descriptive power than INFJ when describing me, especially IRL.

  9. #69
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Is it possible that because he is using Ti secondarily instead of Fe (as an INFJ in Ni-Ti loop would), this seems to you as being NP? I've seen Ne types that lack this "openness" you're suggesting.
    The part about the tertiary inflating itself is what I used to argue. But I don't see how that would look like NP. NT, yes. But the J/P is telling you the attitude of the iNtuition, so just adding Ni to Ti would not make the N look extraverted. However, I imagine looking at it from Jung's setup, starting with Evan as someone internally focused first (whichever functions he prefers), and then seeing that Thinking is dominant followed by intuition; I imagine it is possible for him to appear to be using the intuition internally as well.

    What you're suggesting acknowledges that F seems to be below N and T. Inasmuch as I may have focused a lot on inflated puers until recently; I now realize that I had been caught up in a "hyper" interpretation of Beebe that tries to explain too much through function order. It seems that in actuality, the tertiary does not inflate itself to such an extent that a person continuously appears to prefer the process over the first two. That I now believe has been exaggerated a bit. It happens probably in more brief instances. Like you'll see ENFP's get into brief spouts of organizing their space. And I know my Si is inflated a lot, and one may think I prefer it when I'm in a nostalgic mode; but it overall still does not look like it is greater than T or N. (Like I probably show rather little of it here).

    So T coupled with an internal focus seems to be what is prominent, followed by iNtuition, and Feeling appearing at times, it seems, like he said, that this is just something he has trained himself to do or learned by influence of others. It really does not HAVE to fit into a particular "function order".

    Perhaps "openness" wasn't the best word, or was too ambiguous. I don't want to say "warmth", as that is too easily misunderstood even moreso. But basically, what I'm referring to boils down to the directing/informing difference. Evan communicates more like informing types.
    Last edited by Eric B; 07-23-2009 at 10:09 PM.
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  10. #70
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    What you're suggesting acknowledges that F seems to be below N and T. Inasmuch as I may have focused a lot on inflated puers until recently; I now realize that I had been caught up in a "hyper" interpretation of Beebe that tries to explain too much through function order. It seems that in actuality, the tertiary does not inflate itself to such an extent that a person continuously appears to prefer the process over the first two. That I now believe has been exaggerated a bit. It happens probably in more brief instances. Like you'll see ENFP's get into brief spouts of organizing their space. And I know my Si is inflated a lot, and one may think I prefer it when I'm in a nostalgic mode, it overall still does not look like it is greater than T or N. (Like I probably show rather little of it here).
    Yes.

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