Socionics type: EII or LII

[snegledmaca]

I don't remember them that well, honestly. I'm not good at expanding on things, because it seems to me that I made my point. I can't tell what you didn't see, but you seem to expect me to know.

To know what?

I wanted you to expand so that I could get an idea of what their types are and what it is that made the relation with them undesirable to you.

:blushing: Umm... I think I'm going to be difficult to type. I'm way too confusing.

Not really. Right now, from my point of view, I'd only say EII or SEI for you. Where I'd say SEI > EII.

I honestly don't think SLI is a bad typing at all. You have seemed to portray this stereotype rather well in your descriptions and your temperament. I can also see this from how you type in the forums.

I would say SLI is a bad typing. I sense no confidence in logical reasoning abilities. I don't think he's a logical type. What makes you consider Te ego a possibility?

 

[Snow Turtle]

Actually, I do relate to MBTI Se better than MBTI Si, but I see it as something negative in myself. The part of me that sleeps through the alarm, eats too many snacks, or watches TV all day instead of putting my time to better use.

Hm. That's rather interesting. I've never thought of those actions as negative Se manifestations, although I could easily see them being so now. Si in socionics correlates with Se in MBTI. But I'm not really sure whether Se in socionics actually correlates with Si in MBTI. It'd make sense that they wouldn't neccessarily correlate considering they are different systems. Mercy?

This sounds a lot more like an Si valuing type. Even Si ego, need for comfort and physical compromising. That last description of your work also sounded like Te ego with an Fe PoLR (but I'm not too sure, it was vague).

Hm.

Just curious though. Hypothetically wouldn't a depressive person exhibit many of the characteristics that are slothful, procrastination and low pleasure/comfort seeking activities such as oversleeping etc. This sort of thing could be inherent within everybody.

What does socionics have to say about this?

 

[Athenian200]

I honestly don't think SLI is a bad typing at all. You have seemed to portray this stereotype rather well in your descriptions and your temperament. I can also see this from how you type in the forums.

Well... that's an interesting opinion. Thanks.

 

[527468]

Just curious though. Hypothetically wouldn't a depressive person exhibit many of the characteristics that are slothful, procrastination and low pleasure/comfort seeking activities such as oversleeping etc. This sort of thing could be inherent within everybody.

What does socionics have to say about this?

Well there have been side-theories about temperament and disorders of the liking within socionics. That is why personality profiles were invented in the first place. So I would think its inherent within everybody, but correlated to personality type, for the initial reasons of personality.

Hm. That's rather interesting. I've never thought of those actions as negative Se manifestations, although I could easily see them being so now. Si in socionics correlates with Se in MBTI. But I'm not really sure whether Se in socionics actually correlates with Si in MBTI. It'd make sense that they wouldn't neccessarily correlate considering they are different systems. Mercy?

The correlation is rather vague because they are two different systems. I do see similarities between socionics Si and MBTI Se though, but there are given means to a thought process such as Si that isn't explained in MBTI terms. Socionics is simply different, and it addresses the difference between introverted and extroverted sensing much more effectively than MBTI does in my honest opinion. It does seem like many implications of Se have moved to Si, I agree.

 

[snegledmaca]

But I'm not really sure whether Se in socionics actually correlates with Si in MBTI.

Si in MBTI correlates with creative Se in socionics. But not dominant Se.

Just curious though. Hypothetically wouldn't a depressive person exhibit many of the characteristics that are slothful, procrastination and low pleasure/comfort seeking activities such as oversleeping etc. This sort of thing could be inherent within everybody.

What does socionics have to say about this?

Socionics, in general, does not notice or accommodate for it. The premise is that these things do not influence the informational metabolism. That is, if you're, say, Se dominant, you'll be Se dominant depressed or not. It might manifest differently, but information that is Se still remains Se. Though the depression might obscure noticing this, making it seem like somethign else, as if the person is of a different temperament, quadra and so on. According to my own understanding that is.

 

[Athenian200]

I wanted you to expand so that I could get an idea of what their types are and what it is that made the relation with them undesirable to you.

Well, I can't remember them as individuals, but I do remember the quality they possessed that made me uncomfortable. They both had a focus on action, and doing things well in the moment. It was less directly grating with the guy who brought his family in, and he only showed it indirectly in a few situations (like when he brought his family in, or when insisting on taking power over a particular situation), but his wife was 10x worse. She was always running around, looking for stuff to do, pushing you around, criticizing every little bit of wasted energy or minor mistake. She just made me feel like I was being "picked on" all the time. Like those bullies most people talk about meeting in high school. I never met one there, but this more than made up for it. If I were to guess, I'd say that they were Socionics Se valuing types, though the man didn't have it as an Ego function.

Not really. Right now, from my point of view, I'd only say EII or SEI for you. Where I'd say SEI > EII.

Oh, thanks. I was mostly concerned about how I didn't really fit either one perfectly, and had three qualities from each.

 

[527468]

I would say SLI is a bad typing. I sense no confidence in logical reasoning abilities. I don't think he's a logical type. What makes you consider Te ego a possibility?

What do you mean by confidence in logical reasoning abilities? SEIs have confidence in logical reasoning abilities via Te, however that is also their PoLR, something I don't see of Athenian, nor do I see him belonging to the Alpha quadra. I much more clearly see the IP temperament, Delta quadra, SLI dichotomies and PoLR Fe, more than I see any implication of SEI.

 

[Snow Turtle]

Si in MBTI correlates with creative Se in socionics. But not dominant Se.

Apologies but do you mind linking me to a source that explains the difference between creative and dominant etc just for clarification?

Socionics, in general, does not notice or accommodate for it. The premise is that these things do not influence the informational metabolism. That is, if you're, say, Se dominant, you'll be Se dominant depressed or not. It might manifest differently, but information that is Se still remains Se. Though the depression might obscure noticing this, making it seem like somethign else, as if the person is of a different temperament, quadra and so on. According to my own understanding that is.

I'd agree completely. Curious does it take on the approach similar to Lenore Thompson etc on the idea that depressive behaviour (Se like) would manifest differently depending on the function role of Se?

The last paragraph is essentially what I'm concerned about and curious about, whether depressive behaviour which is inherently Se like (Desire for excessive comfort/escapism) could obscure the real temperament etc. Socionics works on healthy individuals, but I suppose that could be said of MBTI and most other theories asides from the enneagram.

Edit: It seems I'm still taking on the belief that behaviour can be used to figure out socionics, my bad.

 

[snegledmaca]

Well, I can't remember them as individuals, but I do remember the quality they possessed that made me uncomfortable. They both had a focus on action, and doing things well in the moment. It was less directly grating with the guy who brought his family in, and he only showed it indirectly in a few situations (like when he brought his family in, or when insisting on taking power over a particular situation), but his wife was 10x worse. She was always running around, looking for stuff to do, pushing you around, criticizing every little bit of wasted energy or minor mistake. She just made me feel like I was being "picked on" all the time. Like those bullies most people talk about meeting in high school. I never met one there, but this more than made up for it. If I were to guess, I'd say that they were Socionics Se valuing types, though the man didn't have it as an Ego function.

The woman sounds possibly LSE. They both sound EJ temperament. I'd interpret the situation as you having a IP temperament and being annoyed by their EJ temperament.

Oh, thanks. I was mostly concerned about how I didn't really fit either one perfectly, and had three qualities from each.

I do not understand what you are saying here.

 

[Athenian200]

The woman sounds possibly LSE. They both sound EJ temperament. I'd interpret the situation as you having a IP temperament and being annoyed by their EJ temperament.

That's possible... The man was actually okay most of the time, though, just coming up with new ways to handle a problem better. Certain solutions seemed a little unethical to me, though.

I do not understand what you are saying here.

I meant that I thought my responses would be confusing and make it difficult to type me because I related to an equal number of parts of both descriptions. But since you were able to come up with something anyway, it seems that it wasn't.

 

[Snow Turtle]

The woman sounds possibly LSE. They both sound EJ temperament. I'd interpret the situation as you having a IP temperament and being annoyed by their EJ temperament.

Would an IP be bothered by this though?
Then again this is a shallow understand of socionics, as always.

"I remember I got really bothered when I was working at a company with someone, and he brought in his family members (who were not on the payroll) to do work. I felt like it was unprofessional and unfair that he was using them as workers. It bothered me so much that I quit."

 

[snegledmaca]

What do you mean by confidence in logical reasoning abilities? SEIs have confidence in logical reasoning abilities via Te, however that is also their PoLR, something I don't see of Athenian, nor do I see him belonging to the Alpha quadra. I much more clearly see the IP temperament, Delta quadra, SLI dichotomies and PoLR Fe, more than I see any implication of SEI.

I see no Fe PoLR. I'd actually easily see Fe creative for him. The general niceness and warmth he extrudes. SLI do no such thing.

Apologies but do you mind linking me to a source that explains the difference between creative and dominant etc just for clarification?

Here's Se in each block of the psyche, according to the model A. There are links to other elements described by blocks.

Here are the blocks individually.

I'd agree completely. Curious does it take on the approach similar to Lenore Thompson etc on the idea that depressive behaviour (Se like) would manifest differently depending on the function role of Se?

Well I'm not familiar with Lenore Thompson work or ideas, but according to socionics behavior is influenced, heavily, by the informational metabolism. Socionics says imbalances in the informational metabolism cause psychological problems. So depression, according to socionics, would be a result of some issue with ones informational balance. So I guess that's a yes.

The last paragraph is essentially what I'm concerned about and curious about, whether depressive behaviour which is inherently Se like (Desire for excessive comfort/escapism) could obscure the real temperament etc. Socionics works on healthy individuals, but I suppose that could be said of MBTI and most other theories asides from the enneagram.

Well I would say I see no reason why not. That is, atypical behavior would result in atypical assessments. But that would not be a change of essence, but merely a different manifestation. That is, a dolphin looks like a fish, but it's not. In that same manner a depressed Se dominant would not be a, for example, Si dominant. Or something like that.

Edit: It seems I'm still taking on the belief that behaviour can be used to figure out socionics, my bad.

Well in some cases it can. But if you want to figure out your socionics type one does not really need much more then to look at their relations with other people. You can't fake that nor is it subject to wishful thinking, self fulfilling prophecies.

 

[527468]

I can see it in the works now. Fe creative, Ti activation.

 

[snegledmaca]

That's possible... The man was actually okay most of the time, though, just coming up with new ways to handle a problem better. Certain solutions seemed a little unethical to me, though.

The man sounds possibly LIE. They generally have that entrepreneurial spirit of constant improvement, innovation, and restlessness in accomplishing it. Their methods are not always ethical as they focus on efficiency, productivity and generally treat people as machinery, objects.

I meant that I thought my responses would be confusing and make it difficult to type me because I related to an equal number of parts of both descriptions. But since you were able to come up with something anyway, it seems that it wasn't.

Oh no, not at all with me. It's because I don't really care about that at all. I don't type though theoretical analysis. I ask question to get to know you. The information serves to reveal aspects of yourself, how you respond to certain things. And through seeing these responses I get a feel for you, what you could be and so on. That is, I type through my experience, not abstract theoretical analysis.

Would an IP be bothered by this though?

"I remember I got really bothered when I was working at a company with someone, and he brought in his family members (who were not on the payroll) to do work. I felt like it was unprofessional and unfair that he was using them as workers. It bothered me so much that I quit."

Then again this is a shallow understand of socionics, as always.

I don't see why not. And I would say it's not related to temperament at all. I can see anybody being bothered by such a thing.

 

[Athenian200]

I can see it in the works now. Fe creative, Ti activation.

What does that work out to? I really don't see myself as IEI...

The man sounds possibly LIE. They generally have that entrepreneurial spirit of constant improvement, innovation, and restlessness in accomplishing it. Their methods are not always ethical as they focus on efficiency, productivity and generally treat people as machinery, objects.

Ah, yes. I admired the way he treated machinery, actually. Just the way he dealt with people bothered me.

Oh no, not at all with me. It's because I don't really care about that at all. I don't type though theoretical analysis. I ask question to get to know you. The information serves to reveal aspects of yourself, how you respond to certain things. And through seeing these responses I get a feel for you, what you could be and so on. That is, I type through my experience, not abstract theoretical analysis.

That's an interesting way to type. I'm not used to people using experience in a way that isn't based on stereotypes.

 

[snegledmaca]

Ah, yes. I admired the way he treated machinery, actually. Just the way he dealt with people bothered me.

That's what the otehr half of the quadra is there for.

And what is it that bothered you with the way he dealt with people?

 

[Athenian200]

That's what the otehr half of the quadra is there for.

Ah, that explains it...

And what is it that bothered you with the way he dealt with people?

Well, in once case he took them for granted. In another, he just blew off some paperwork he'd been asked to do on a regular basis to focus on his own concerns, letting it pile up, unconsciously dismissing it as unimportant. We only found it because my supervisor sent me to look for something else in his office while he was away, and I happened to see it while I was getting that. It was unsorted, and a year behind where it should have been (I knew because I had been entering the more recent ones myself).

 

[snegledmaca]

Well, in once case he took them for granted.

Elaborate.

In another, he just blew off some paperwork he'd been asked to do on a regular basis to focus on his own concerns, letting it pile up, unconsciously dismissing it as unimportant.

This sounds possibly like vulnerable Si. To qoute wikisocion:

"A typical manifestation is a lack of concern for small aesthetic details, since a greater focus is given on the opinion that, in the longer term, taking care of them is a never-ending exercise."

 

[Athenian200]

Elaborate.

Well, there's the one I already told you about with using his family as workers, and then there's the way he "just expected" things from the people around him while not heeding reciprocal expectations on himself.

This sounds possibly like vulnerable Si. To qoute wikisocion:

Yes, that's exactly what it sounds like.

 

[snegledmaca]

Well, there's the one I already told you about with using his family as workers, and then there's the way he "just expected" things from the people around him while not heeding reciprocal expectations on himself.

Is that people equal to him, as in, his coworkers? Because if he was somebodies boss what you say doesn't make much sense. And expected what from people around him?